Traveling with Assorted Firearms

[bthr22]

After searching the legal forum for a while, I haven't found anything that answers my specific question.

Next May, I will be driving from my home in OH to Reno, NV. I would like to do some shooting with my friend out there, but am nervous to take some firearms. I will be 20 years old at the time of the trip, so I figure long guns shouldn't be much of an issue, but I would also like to take some handguns out as well. Will there be any issue in transporting either? They will be unloaded, locked in my trunk in a separate container from the ammo.

Also, I will be taking a detour through Grand Teton National Forest and Yellowstone National Park. Will there be any issue with firearms in my trunk there without a CCW?

Here's a list of the states I'll be driving through: OH, IN, IL, MO, KS, NE, WY, UT, NV, ID, SD, MN, and IA.

If I did miss a thread with an answer that will help, please redirect me!

Thanks for the help!

 

[we are not amused]

I am not a lawyer, neither do I play one on the internet.
With that firmly in mind, I think you can transport the weapons as described. If it is legal for you to possess a hand gun in Nevada at age 20, and I think it is, you should be alright. As for traveling through the National Parks, according to [inr_gunsparks_brochure_2-2010-2.pdf-Adobe Reader] found at www.nps.gov. Carrying in the National Parks now confirms to State law, so carrying unloaded in the trunk should be good
There is a great resource at www.Handgunlaw.us
Indian Reservations are also their own separate set of rules, but again carrying unloaded in the trunk is good.
Have fun, there are some gun ranges down there that are almost scary in what you can rent and do! ( Scary is good!)

 

[bthr22]

Thanks!

 

[NavyLCDR]

The biggest question is how did you legally obtain the handguns in Ohio? It's illegal in Ohio for ANYONE to give or sell them to you in Ohio. Other than that little hiccup, the easiest way to carry the guns and firearms is in accordance with the Federal Firearms Owners' Protection Act, 18 USC 926A:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000926---A000-.html

§ 926A. Interstate transportation of firearms

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

 

[bthr22]

Technically, the handguns are my father's. But since I most frequently shoot them, they're known in my household as "mine." And I have been reading up on the ATF website and it looks like I could transport a handgun with written consent from the owner between my home and my shooting destination. Am I correct in how I am reading this? (I may have read this in Ohio's gun laws, not ATF)

 

[NavyLCDR]

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.21

2923.21 Improperly furnishing firearms to minor.

(A) No person shall do any of the following:

(1) Sell any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age;

(2) Subject to division (B) of this section, sell any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age;

(3) Furnish any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age or, subject to division (B) of this section, furnish any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age, except for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes, including, but not limited to, instruction in firearms or handgun safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control of a responsible adult;

Are you going to be under the supervision or control of what Ohio law considers to be a responsible adult?

(C) Whoever violates this section is guilty of improperly furnishing firearms to a minor, a felony of the fifth degree.

Is it REALLY worth it?

 

[bthr22]

We would be shooting under the supervision of an adult RSO. But, I also found this law on the ATF's website. Unless I'm misreading this, then the law you provided contradicts this one.

(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly pos- sess—

(A) a handgun; or (B) ammunition that is suitable for
use only in a handgun.

(3) This subsection does not apply to—

(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juve- nile—

(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farm- ing related to activities at the resi-
dence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farm- ing at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;

(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except—

(I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity de- scribed in clause
(i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked con- tainer, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor; or

(II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as described in clause (i), a juvenile may pos- sess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the di- rection of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a fire- arm;

(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and

(iv) in accordance with State and local law;

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Of course I don't want a felony or anything. That's why I'm trying to get all this legal stuff figured out far in advance before I make this trip. I am only trying to learn and further my knowledge of the law. I would hate to get stopped in Idaho somewhere and find out right there that I'm doing something totally illegal. I mean it's already looking like it would just be safer to leave at least any handguns at home, but I would just like to know exactly what the law is. That way I won't have to wonder what I can and can't do.

So I really appreciate all the help!

Thanks,
Bthr22

 

[Art Eatman]

bthr22, you are clean and green with respect to federal law and your method of transport has you okay outside of Ohio. And maybe not okay in Illinois, but I don't know about the possession and adult aspect. In Illinois, federal law should cover you--but that's "most likely".

Given that the guns are locked away and you're travelling, federal law should protect you once you leave your house. The deal is protection from a legal place to a legal place. You're legal at your house; you're legal where you're going.

NavyLCDR, does that sound about right?

Seems to me that while we can be in accord with laws as written, not all authorities know the actual law and thus hassles result. That's why avoidance and a low profile are sometimes very important--as in being scrupulous about obeying traffic laws in unfriendly states.

 

[NavyLCDR]

1. The Federal law bthr22 is referring to (18 USC 922 (x)) has no bearing on the situation at all. Reason: juvenile is defined in the same section as a person under the age of 18 and bthr22 is 20 years old:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html

§ 922. Unlawful acts
(x)
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term “juvenile” means a person who is less than 18 years of age.

2. Federal law, Firearms Owners' Protection Act, 18 USC 926A, will protect bthr22 during his travel, IF the unloaded firearms and ammo are in a locked exterior compartment of the vehicle or in locked containers if they must be in the passenger compartment, because his possession and carrying of the firearms will certainly be legal in Nevada and there is actually no Ohio law prohibiting the possession and carrying of the firearms by a person under 21. State LEO can still arrest bthr22 for violations of state law if the state he is in prohibits his possession of the firearms, but the charges should be dismissed when appealed to a Federal court.

3. The legal problem is that Ohio statute clearly prohibits bthr22's father from furnishing him with a handgun until he is 21, except during such times that he is actually under the supervision of a "responsible adult". It does not matter that bthr22 is on his way to a location of supervised shooting. Ohio law requires "responsible adult" supervision ANYTIME a person <21 years old is furnished with a handgun. There is NO exception in Ohio statute for transportation.

So.... the only legal jeopardy that I can see is while bthr22 is actually in Ohio, in possession of the handgun in any shape or form and location, without "reasonable adult supervision" present at that location, and a LEO asks him, "who gave this handgun to you?" At that point in time, bthr22 invokes his 5th Amendment rights to remain silent in order to not incriminate his father for committing the felony of furnishing the handgun to a minor in Ohio. The Ohio LEO would have no legal grounds to arrest bthr22 for possession of the handgun, but they would have grounds to go after the person who furnished the handgun to him.

As a side note, the way an 18 to 20 year old person MAY legally possess a handgun in Ohio without "responsible adult supervision" is if that person legally obtained the handgun outside the state of Ohio and brought it with them into Ohio. For example, a Wyoming resident, 18 years old, buys a handgun from another Wyoming resident (all completely legal) and then moves to Ohio with the handgun before he is 21. Under those circumstances, no Ohio statute or Federal statute is violated.

 

[bthr22]

Ok, I understand what is being said now. Wow, this is a pain in the butt to get figured out. So it looks like I will be able to take any rifles I want, just no handguns.

A friend had suggested that I mail what I want to shoot out there. Would it be a problem to have my dad mail a handgun out there and I pick it up? Then mail it back before I head home?

Thanks!

 

[NavyLCDR]

A friend had suggested that I mail what I want to shoot out there. Would it be a problem to have my dad mail a handgun out there and I pick it up? Then mail it back before I head home?

It is only lawful for a person to ship a firearm to themselves in care of another person in another state.

1. YOU would have to do the shipping, not your dad.
2. A handgun, by Federal regulations cannot be mailed via US Post Office by Joe Citizen. Handguns can only be mailed via USPO by FFLs.
3. By company policy, FEDEX will not do handgun shipments between non-FFLs - at least the shipper or the receiver must have an FFL.
4. By company policy, UPS will only ship handguns via next day air.

So, to remain legal and abide by all company policies and state laws involved, your dad would have to supervise you in taking the handgun to UPS, where you would send the gun next day air to yourself in care of another person in Nevada who would hold the unopened package for you until you arrived.

Then, leaving Nevada, you would take the handgun to UPS and send it next day air to yourself, in care of you dad, who would hold the package unopened until you returned.

FFL to FFL by US Post Office would not work either, because the FFL in Nevada would only be able to transfer the handgun to a Nevada resident.

 

[CapnMac]

Uh, fine point question here--isn't there a provision in FOPA, that it only applies if the possession is legal in both starting and ending State?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Uh, fine point question here--isn't there a provision in FOPA, that it only applies if the possession is legal in both starting and ending State?

Yes, that is true. Which presents no problem for our 20 year-old OP. There is no Ohio law that prohibts his possession, carrying, or transportation of the handgun. There is only an Ohio statute that prohibts ANYONE from furnishing him with a handgun except for during certain activities supervised by a "responsible adult."

So, let's say bthr22 is stopped for speeding in Ohio. Ohio LEO asks him, do you have any firearms in the car? bthr22 says, yes, I do, I have a handgun and two rifles unloaded and locked in the truck. At this point Ohio LEO can charge bthr22 with nothing, because he is not violating any Ohio laws.

Next, Ohio LEO asks bthr22, "Well, son, since I see here on your driver's license that you are 20 years old, I would like to know how you came into possession of the handgun?"

bthr22 says, "It is my dad's. I am going to the range for target shooting."

LEO still has nothing to charge bthr22 with. HOWEVER, now LEO has reasonable and articulable suspicion that bthr22's dad has committed a felony, so they go to bthr22's dad's house and ask, "Mr. bthr22 senior, did you give your son a handgun to go target shooting with?" Dad says, "Yes, he's on his way to the gun range." LEO asks, "Is young bthr22 currently under the supervision of a 'responsible adult'?" Dad answers, "I doubt it, he left here alone with the gun unloaded and locked in the trunk."

LEO then arrests bthr22 senior for violating Ohio Revised Code 2923.21 for furnishing a person under the age of 21 with a handgun who is not engaged in any of the exempted activities and is not being supervised by a 'responsible adult'. However, bthr22 is not, himself, in violation of any Ohio statute.

Thus... if bthr22 makes it to the Ohio state line, I would say that FOPA would cover him because he did not violate any Ohio statutes while in Ohio, it would be his father who violated Ohio statute.

 

[bthr22]

Hmm... Lots of info to chew on. I wouldn't mind paying for next day air. And I have an absolutely spotless driving and criminal record. Not to say that nothing could happen, but that's still a pretty large gamble. Plus trying to transport through one of the other eleven states that may or may not have a similar handgun law as Ohio. And since I can transport rifles, that should greatly reduce my shipping costs if I do decide to ship next day air.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You can't borrow someone's pistol(s) while you are down there? Just sounds like an awful lot of trouble to go to just to be able to go out and shoot a handgun....

State laws in between Ohio and Nevada won't matter because of FOPA.

 

[bthr22]

It was an idea, my main reason for going out is to visit a friend, who is also into shooting as well. Thought it might be fun to take mine out and show off and just have a good time. Its still almost a year away, and this is why I wanted to start finding out what I can and can't do now. I'll have enough time to figure out other options. Of course ideally I'd like to be able to take my rifles and handguns out there and show them off to my friend and compare with whatever she has, but if it just won't work, then I'll figure something else out. And finding this stuff out could also help me when planning future trips as well, not just this Nevada trip.

 

[bthr22]

Besides, what's to gain from just saying "well, I'll just borrow someone's handgun and not worry about it?" For me, there is a sense of accomplishment in doing the research and following through with finding out the law and what I'm legally allowed to do. Even if it ends up being that I just have to borrow someone's gun, I'll know that I did good research and furthered my knowlege for the future. So that's my reasoning for going through the trouble for just a handgun.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Besides, what's to gain from just saying "well, I'll just borrow someone's handgun and not worry about it?" For me, there is a sense of accomplishment in doing the research and following through with finding out the law and what I'm legally allowed to do. Even if it ends up being that I just have to borrow someone's gun, I'll know that I did good research and furthered my knowlege for the future. So that's my reasoning for going through the trouble for just a handgun.

I fully understand researching the law. No problem with that! I just can't see myself getting my dad to go with me to UPS to ship a handgun overnight to Nevada... that's just me, though. Another option to comply with the law would be for a "responsible adult" to accompany you to the Ohio state line and turn you loose on the rest of the U.S.

Don't get me wrong, I think that Ohio law is ridiculous.

 

[bthr22]

Ha, I would have an easier time trying to ship a gun than getting my dad to drive an hour and a half to the Indiana border. But I agree, Ohio has some dumb laws that really make it difficult for youth to enjoy shooting. Not to mention all the other crap that everyone else has to deal with with CCW stuff and all.

 

[we are not amused]

Great idea! Your father on a family trip outside the state of Ohio, gave you the guns! :banghead:
It really sounds like Ohio needs to clean up it's gun laws, from the trouble in Canton and this silliness. I am from Kansas, and while it took a lot longer than it should have to get concealed carry, (Left-wing progressive Governors of BOTH parties) we never had too much nonsense about the right to have guns.

 

[hermannr]

bthr22: Old man here. Done may things prior returning from my all expense paid 18 month tour of SE Asia (Vietnam in the 60's) and obtaining my US citizenship in 1970, that could also have gotten me a felony firearms charge (though I did not know that could be the outcome at the time) Just lucky I guess. ( my favorite handgun, a 1926 Colt, was given to me by my FIL...in NYS. As an immigrent it is illegal (felony) to even handle a handgun in NYS. and that was 1967)

But, my advice to you, take your long guns, leave the handguns at home. When you get back from your trip, work actively (politically) to get that stupid law changed...run for office if you have to, but be active, work hard, engage all your friends at the range, write your representitives, pound the pavement...and good luck.

 

[bthr22]

Hermannr: That's what I'll probably end up doing. Just taking my long guns and supporting the change of these dumb laws