rbernie
Contributing Member
Does the Matech lock in the up position, or is it spring-loaded like the ARMS #40? It doesn't look particularly substantive when deployed - is it as fragile as it looks?
Troy, ARMS or YHM BUIS, which should I go?
- Thread starter ShootAndHunt
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Don't Tread On Me
Member
I have the Troy.
I think it is a personal preference for a lot of reasons. There is no doubt that the Troy is a superior back up flip up iron sight. It is machined better, it is a more precision made item. The quality difference is visable. However, is it worth $40-$45 more?
Also, the ARMS will spring up into action which might be faster than having to lift up the Troy. The Troy locks very solidly though.
I like how the Troy's apatures are dished on the correct side!! You get a true ghost-ring effect.
The Troy also rides lower and more out of the way than the ARMS when not deployed. Troy windage adjustment is locked in place with its A1 style adjustment. Other sights have the A2 style that can have the windage get bumped a few notches off.
They are different, both work. All depends on whether or not you think $45 more is worth all the little things on a sight that is primarily nothing more than a back up if an optic breaks.
I think it is a personal preference for a lot of reasons. There is no doubt that the Troy is a superior back up flip up iron sight. It is machined better, it is a more precision made item. The quality difference is visable. However, is it worth $40-$45 more?
Also, the ARMS will spring up into action which might be faster than having to lift up the Troy. The Troy locks very solidly though.
I like how the Troy's apatures are dished on the correct side!! You get a true ghost-ring effect.
The Troy also rides lower and more out of the way than the ARMS when not deployed. Troy windage adjustment is locked in place with its A1 style adjustment. Other sights have the A2 style that can have the windage get bumped a few notches off.
They are different, both work. All depends on whether or not you think $45 more is worth all the little things on a sight that is primarily nothing more than a back up if an optic breaks.
Denny Hansen
Member
I've used many brands over the last few years. With that said, the BUIS I prefer over all others is from Larue Tactical. YMMV
Denny
Denny
"The Troy also rides lower and more out of the way than the ARMS when not deployed. "
If you have ever noticed, a lot of my opinions on stuff revolve around having options or the item being versitile. I started off using a GG&G BUIS, and later got the ARMs #40. Then I bought a TA31F ACOG. I use various sighting systems with my ARs with LaRue mounts: I can use the ACOG or a Red Dot, or a 10X conventional rifle scope and switch out in seconds. BUT, with the ACOG you need a sight that sits very low or it won't clear the rear of the ACOG. The Troy is the answer. So, even if I didn't own an ACOG and had no intention of buying one, I might still buy the low sight just in case I someday change my mind. Again, this gives me that option. Even if I never decide to utilize that option, it is there if I need it.
If you have ever noticed, a lot of my opinions on stuff revolve around having options or the item being versitile. I started off using a GG&G BUIS, and later got the ARMs #40. Then I bought a TA31F ACOG. I use various sighting systems with my ARs with LaRue mounts: I can use the ACOG or a Red Dot, or a 10X conventional rifle scope and switch out in seconds. BUT, with the ACOG you need a sight that sits very low or it won't clear the rear of the ACOG. The Troy is the answer. So, even if I didn't own an ACOG and had no intention of buying one, I might still buy the low sight just in case I someday change my mind. Again, this gives me that option. Even if I never decide to utilize that option, it is there if I need it.
JeepDriver
Member
ARMS 40L for me.
I have 2 of them, one on my M4Gery and one on my RRA 9mm Flat top.
I have only used them for sighting them in, but the main reason I bought them was because they are out of the way when folded.
I have 2 of them, one on my M4Gery and one on my RRA 9mm Flat top.
I have only used them for sighting them in, but the main reason I bought them was because they are out of the way when folded.
Chris Rhines
Member
I have Troy and YHM BUISes. Frankly, I'm not enthralled with either of them. Both have a lot of lateral play in the sight leaf.
The new Troy sight with the dual aperture seems to have corrected this problem. Still, my favorite BUIS is a JP SRTS on an offset fore end mount. http://www.jprifles.com/DetachableSights.html
- Chris
The new Troy sight with the dual aperture seems to have corrected this problem. Still, my favorite BUIS is a JP SRTS on an offset fore end mount. http://www.jprifles.com/DetachableSights.html
- Chris
rbernie
Contributing Member
Looked at GG&G MAD yesterday. Was disappointed that it had no locking or spring mechanism to keep it either down nor up. Looks like a neat range toy, but I'd not feel comfortable relying upon it if it's got no reliable means of staying up when needed.
Nobody's mentioned the Mangonel. It doesn't look any less robust than many other designs. Is it less popular because it offers only a single fixed-elevation ghost-ring aperture?
Nobody's mentioned the Mangonel. It doesn't look any less robust than many other designs. Is it less popular because it offers only a single fixed-elevation ghost-ring aperture?
This post provides nothing new. But, I would really like to keep this thread alive and possibly learn something.
This weekend I took the Frontsight Practical Rifle, Two day skill builder. I have taken this class twice before: once with an Aimpoint ML2 and once with a TA31F ACOG. This time, I took the class using only my Troy duel aperature BUIS.
This was two days, somewhere around 700 rounds, 7-200 yards, with VERY tight time constraints. Times range from 1.5 second head shots at 15 yards out to 6.5 second COM shots at 200 yards.
Bottom line: I did horrible. By FAR the worst I have ever done in any class or competitive venue.
I used the large aperature all the time. This was the advice of the instructor. I did fire a couple groups with each aperature and it seemed like they both were not on the same plane. This could have just been how bad I was shooting, but at this point, I don't know. If they were both on the same plane, I think I would have done better with the smaller aperature, but I don't know since I didn't try it.
I think that one of my major problems was that I wasn't getting a consistant cheek weld. I blame this on my use of optics for years. With a dot optic, cheek weld doesn't matter. With iron sights it is critical. I think that if I took the same class again, starting tomorrow, I would do OK. But, this kind of shooting with iron sights takes some serious training: and I don't have it.
I can't say that I have much against the Troy sight. It basically just sat there. I don't know if any other sight would have allowed me to perform better but I seriously doubt it.
The guy shooting next to me had a GG&G MAD BUIS on his gun. I liked the look of it. I think I might give it a try.
Accoring to this website: http://www.cactustactical.com/ggg/ar15accessories.html "It has now been improved to include a locking detent mechanism. Once deployed in the up position, the sight cannot be folded down without depressing the spring assisted detent release button located on the left side of the sight base. This eliminates the possibility of accidentally lowering the sight."
One thing about the Troy BUIS that I consider a huge disadvantage is that I was unable to adjust the windage on mine with a bullet (I knew this before the class). I used a pen both times I adjusted mine. This is unacceptable to me. The sights should adjust with whatever you have on your person when you are firing the rifle: not a special tool. This usually means a bullet.
This weekend I took the Frontsight Practical Rifle, Two day skill builder. I have taken this class twice before: once with an Aimpoint ML2 and once with a TA31F ACOG. This time, I took the class using only my Troy duel aperature BUIS.
This was two days, somewhere around 700 rounds, 7-200 yards, with VERY tight time constraints. Times range from 1.5 second head shots at 15 yards out to 6.5 second COM shots at 200 yards.
Bottom line: I did horrible. By FAR the worst I have ever done in any class or competitive venue.
I used the large aperature all the time. This was the advice of the instructor. I did fire a couple groups with each aperature and it seemed like they both were not on the same plane. This could have just been how bad I was shooting, but at this point, I don't know. If they were both on the same plane, I think I would have done better with the smaller aperature, but I don't know since I didn't try it.
I think that one of my major problems was that I wasn't getting a consistant cheek weld. I blame this on my use of optics for years. With a dot optic, cheek weld doesn't matter. With iron sights it is critical. I think that if I took the same class again, starting tomorrow, I would do OK. But, this kind of shooting with iron sights takes some serious training: and I don't have it.
I can't say that I have much against the Troy sight. It basically just sat there. I don't know if any other sight would have allowed me to perform better but I seriously doubt it.
The guy shooting next to me had a GG&G MAD BUIS on his gun. I liked the look of it. I think I might give it a try.
Accoring to this website: http://www.cactustactical.com/ggg/ar15accessories.html "It has now been improved to include a locking detent mechanism. Once deployed in the up position, the sight cannot be folded down without depressing the spring assisted detent release button located on the left side of the sight base. This eliminates the possibility of accidentally lowering the sight."
One thing about the Troy BUIS that I consider a huge disadvantage is that I was unable to adjust the windage on mine with a bullet (I knew this before the class). I used a pen both times I adjusted mine. This is unacceptable to me. The sights should adjust with whatever you have on your person when you are firing the rifle: not a special tool. This usually means a bullet.
One thing that I failed to mention after I was thinking about this was that ONCE during this class I looked down at my weapon and found that the rear sight aperature had rotated to half way between the large and small aperature.
If you were in combat or whatever, this would be a bad situation: you would have no rear sight.
So, there is more to the discussion besides whether or not the BUIS locks when open or it locks when closed. We also need to know about the aperature. After this experience, I would have to say that I think having a single aperature would be better. First of all, it can't rotate like mine did. Second, why do we need two aperatures anyway ? I suppose if you bought a flat top and didn't have the money for an optic and were using this sight as your only sighting system, having two aperatures makes sense. But as a BUIS, I would think that having only the large aperature makes more sense. If you were going to use the sight a lot: more than just a back up, I can see where having two, same plane aperatures would be a plus. But, not if it is possible for the aperatures to rotate so that you can't see through either one.
On the standard carry handle M16/AR15 we have two aperatures: one is for zero to 200 and the other is for use beyond 200: on the A2 the small aperature is used with the range knob. So, if we only had the large aperature designed for use at 0-200 yards, I think we would be fine. Simple is better.
However, this brings us back to the GG&G MAD sight. It locks in the up position. It also has two aperatures, BUT the aperatures arn't on an "L" shaped piece of metal that flips one way or the other. The MAD aperatures are selected by rotating a "wheel" type thing. So, can this wheel get rotated so that it is inbetween aperatures ? Another plus with this MAD sight is that the two aperatures are on the same plane. So instead of one being the short range sight and the other being the long range sight: we can use either, at any range depending on lighting and on the need for speed. If we were shooting on a range at paper targets, we could use the small aperature for greater accuracy. If we had a 300 yard shot at an unsuspecting, stationary enemy with lots of time and a solid rest, we could dial up the small aperature for a precision shot. During a class such as the one I took this weekend, I could have tried the smaller aperature and if it didn't work out, I could have switched to the big one while maintaining my zero.
I also thought briefly about buying one of those real big BUIS like the Larue. In fact, now that I think about it. I bought something like that on a group buy from AR15.com. It was more like the chopped carry handle. But, if you have an ACOG or think there might ever be a remote possibility of your ever having an ACOG, you have to have a very slim, folding rear sight.
If you were in combat or whatever, this would be a bad situation: you would have no rear sight.
So, there is more to the discussion besides whether or not the BUIS locks when open or it locks when closed. We also need to know about the aperature. After this experience, I would have to say that I think having a single aperature would be better. First of all, it can't rotate like mine did. Second, why do we need two aperatures anyway ? I suppose if you bought a flat top and didn't have the money for an optic and were using this sight as your only sighting system, having two aperatures makes sense. But as a BUIS, I would think that having only the large aperature makes more sense. If you were going to use the sight a lot: more than just a back up, I can see where having two, same plane aperatures would be a plus. But, not if it is possible for the aperatures to rotate so that you can't see through either one.
On the standard carry handle M16/AR15 we have two aperatures: one is for zero to 200 and the other is for use beyond 200: on the A2 the small aperature is used with the range knob. So, if we only had the large aperature designed for use at 0-200 yards, I think we would be fine. Simple is better.
However, this brings us back to the GG&G MAD sight. It locks in the up position. It also has two aperatures, BUT the aperatures arn't on an "L" shaped piece of metal that flips one way or the other. The MAD aperatures are selected by rotating a "wheel" type thing. So, can this wheel get rotated so that it is inbetween aperatures ? Another plus with this MAD sight is that the two aperatures are on the same plane. So instead of one being the short range sight and the other being the long range sight: we can use either, at any range depending on lighting and on the need for speed. If we were shooting on a range at paper targets, we could use the small aperature for greater accuracy. If we had a 300 yard shot at an unsuspecting, stationary enemy with lots of time and a solid rest, we could dial up the small aperature for a precision shot. During a class such as the one I took this weekend, I could have tried the smaller aperature and if it didn't work out, I could have switched to the big one while maintaining my zero.
I also thought briefly about buying one of those real big BUIS like the Larue. In fact, now that I think about it. I bought something like that on a group buy from AR15.com. It was more like the chopped carry handle. But, if you have an ACOG or think there might ever be a remote possibility of your ever having an ACOG, you have to have a very slim, folding rear sight.
rbernie
Contributing Member
The select wheel on the GG&G MAD that I looked at appeared to be friction-based; I can't recall any stop detents but they may have been there and I just didn't notice.
I'm leaning towards the Mangonel BUIS - locks in the up position and has one simple no-way-to-boob-it-up aperture. Zero it, put a telltale stripe across the adjustment wheel and base or on the windage hash marks, and have at it. At least that's my theory.
I'm leaning towards the Mangonel BUIS - locks in the up position and has one simple no-way-to-boob-it-up aperture. Zero it, put a telltale stripe across the adjustment wheel and base or on the windage hash marks, and have at it. At least that's my theory.
Tom Servo
Member
I'm in the same quandary. I've got an Armalite M15 flat-top, and I'd like to install a BUIS on it.
I believe it has the standard A2 front sight. Are there any BUIS's out there that will not require raising it?
I believe it has the standard A2 front sight. Are there any BUIS's out there that will not require raising it?
Don't Tread On Me
Member
Haha, gravedigging!
Someone was doing a search and replied ...hehe.
Another thing to note on BUIS. It's better to mount them to railed forearms, not gas blocks. I dunno about you, but when I run my AR it gets HOT. Will you be able to deploy that gas-block mounted BUIS or integrated gas-block BUIS after firing 3 mags rapid fire?
Someone was doing a search and replied ...hehe.
Another thing to note on BUIS. It's better to mount them to railed forearms, not gas blocks. I dunno about you, but when I run my AR it gets HOT. Will you be able to deploy that gas-block mounted BUIS or integrated gas-block BUIS after firing 3 mags rapid fire?
wacki
Member
Ok, I'll buy a Troy for the one AR that I might use optics on. But I'd like some suggestions on a non-backup iron sight for my other AR's. I really don't want to shell out $700 on 5 troy's for all of my AR's especially when I'm unlikely to use optics on my plinking AR's.
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
Wonder9
Member
Has S&W placed Troy sights (front and back) on the M&P15T?
Ravenslair
Member
- Joined
- May 9, 2005
- Messages
- 65
S&W does put Troy sights on the M&P15T.
LaRue BUIS are Troy's too. I have used all three along with the GGG MAD, MI same plane, Matech, Knights (KAC), and cheapies. I have to say that I like the KAC 600 meter the best for my precision rig, Matech for my M4gery rig, and the Troys for the mid-length.
Basically it boils down to what you works for you and your shooting situation.
Basically it boils down to what you works for you and your shooting situation.
wacki
Member
Troys are the same as LaRue?
Same design I can see but the same factory? Can you clarify?
Same design I can see but the same factory? Can you clarify?
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