Try Trap and Skeet Shooting

[dghboy315]

I wanted to post this here b/c for a long time I had just been visiting the pistol discussion sections of this forum and didn’t even think to try the shotguns discussions. Well, I’m here to tell you that if you haven’t tried trap or skeet shooting, you don’t know what you are missing.

I bought my first handgun three years ago and have been shooting idpa and ipsc for two years. as much as i love action pistol shooting, a few months ago i began wanting to expand my shooting repertoire. 3 gun competitions seems to be the next logical choice, but there are no 3 gun matches in my area and buying a suitable shotgun and rifle is quite expensive. then, one day, I noticed the shotguns section of this forum. Of course, i had seen it before, but I had never seriously read the posts before. I decided to give it a try.

Low and behold, everyone was talking about trap, skeet, and sporting clays. I instantly became interested. I began reading old post and reviewing the topics. The shotgun sports seemed exciting, easy to learn, readily available in my area, comparatively inexpensive, and most of all fun. After some research, I began asking some question about starting up. The shotgunners were very gracious and helpful (like everyone else in this forum). Before I knew it, I had a private lesson set up with the venerable Dave McCracken (if you don’t know him, you have never been in the shotgun section).

If you want to read about my experience, I have post the story in the shotgun forum -- http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69539
Long story short, it was an awesome experience. I ended up spending 3 hours at the range shooting single trap, wobble trap, and skeet. I had to buy a case of ammo because it just ended up being cheaper.

Any ways, if you are looking for a new and fun way to "loudly blow things up" (Dave), I suggest finding your nearest trap and skeet range and giving it a try.

 

[FNFiveSeven]

or even better, go to a sporting clays range. it's like skeet, only with slightly longer ranges and a greater variation in target presentation.

 

[Jason Demond]

I am not a Trap shooter, but my Dad is. He tried to get me into the sport, but it wasn't my cup of tea. I got real sick of people looking down their nose at me, for shooting an 870 Trap gun. It was the same gun my Dad used when he first started shooting Trap, it's the same gun he broke his first straight 100 with. He dropped $8000.00 bucks on a Beretta DT10 last year, at still gets the look. It doesn't bother him any, he can out shoot most of them anyway.

 

[del4]

Jason, most sports and hobbies are like that. I felt the same way when I tried out highpower rifle, total turn-off. Walk into some (most in my experience) Harley shops w\o a Harley in some dockers and a nice pullover and you will get the same look by a lot of rough looking people. My other hobby is scuba diving and some other divers will look down at you because you are not uber-advanced,wreck, reef, cave, night, salvage diver instructor who buys new gear every year. . It is human nature, it's a good sign that those people have no life outside of said hobby/sport.

I shoot trap and skeet on occasion. I use a Mossberg 500 and have a ball. I am thinking about a nice over/under.

 

[FNFiveSeven]

Well, at the sporting clays range I go to, people do look down on guys shooting pump guns, but that's mostly because they judge them to be "not serious" and therefore "don't know what they're doing." I don't think anybody looks down on somebody because their gear is cheap... lots of people shoot automatics and their high scores have earned them plenty of respect. Pumpgun shooters, OTOH, never get a high score, because of the added difficulty in breaking doubles.

 

[cracked butt]

Ther is a flip side to using a pump if you are good. I shot a standard 870 Wingmaster for 10 years of weekly trap. I've since switched over to a Browning BPS and don't shoot regularly anymore because of my work hours. Nothing beats walking away from the line after breaking 25 or 50 straight with a field gun knowing that you have the highest score when others are wearing expensive vests and shooting $10,000 trap guns. Better yet winning a shootoff in a money shoot with a field gun- You are at a huge disadvantage against someone shoting an O/U, but even if you lose they will probably respect you.

 

[sm]

down on somebody because their gear is cheap... lots of people shoot automatics and their high scores have earned them plenty of respect. Pumpgun shooters, OTOH, never get a high score, because of the added difficulty in breaking doubles.

I beg to differ in some respects.

-When I shot 25K rds in 12 ga alone, I used a semi to reduce recoil. I used a 3 bbl set to shoot the sub ga. I also competed in 5 stand and sporting clays in sub ga only comps. I ran /run the same score with a pump gun.

-Honest a straight in doubles looks the same whether shot by pump or semi. Second bird often broke quicker for using a pump.

-Folks don't learn to drive manual Transmissions...well folks don't learn on Pumps or revolvers either. Folks today want to buy skill and targets.

-I belonged and shot at a personable club. I have shot at those that were not. True in anything - any sport. I didn't care, I let my shooting do the talking. I even on purpose wanted to appear inferior...side bets are nice.

-Nope the pump is not dead. Folks are concerned about recoil and the effects on the body. Vertabra, retina...etc. Now the tricked out gas guns won't run the light loads to alleviate this. A pump will. So beware the man with a pump, worn with character and a bucket of reloads...if wearing a bandana and no hat...might be the half of a team that ran 99/100 using pump guns...just might.

Hey Correia...you ever figure out how to shoot that pump gun....bwhahaha. *grin*.

 

[ThreadKiller]

My clunky 1100's and 11-87's fine grind 16 yard targets with nice soft 1 oz loads.

If you can't break targets with an 1100, you can't break targets.

Tim

 

[cracked butt]

"Folks are concerned about recoil and the effects on the body. Vertabra, retina...etc. Now the tricked out gas guns won't run the light loads to alleviate this. A pump will. So beware the man with a pump, worn with character and a bucket of reloads...if wearing a bandana and no hat...might be the half of a team that ran 99/100 using pump guns...just might. "

Does shooting pumps actually harm the body? I've put rounds through- probably nearly 100,000- 12 guage pumps guns and have never felt any ill effects. The 3" goose loads loosen my fillings and give me headaches, but I don't shoot more than a couple of boxes of them a year.

I know of a man who belonged to the club I belonged to as a kid who has long since passed- he was 95 years old, shot an ancient ribless model 12, had to carry a chair with him to the shooting line to sit on because his legs wouldn't hold him very good anymore, but he was still a keen shot.

 

[cracked butt]

If you can't break targets with an 1100, you can't break targets.

I couldn't hit anything with an 1100. My dad bought me one when I was 15- the recoil felt all wrong and thew me off, so I went back to a pump I tried an A-5 once too, and it just didn't feel quite to me either.

 

[Detritus]

the recoil felt all wrong and thew me off,

me too!!
Even though The first shotgun i ever fired was an 1100 owned by a neighbor who took my father and i out for a "redneck skeet/trap shoot" (ie thrower bolted onto a steel plate in the back of a '70's era ford Ranger and different prsentations were accomplished by where the shooter stood in the field)

I actually learned HOW TO SHOOT with an 870, (we went out twice using the neibor's gun(s), then dad bought two 870s an express and a wingmaster. i took the wingmaster (it was the better looking gun to me at the time, now, after seeing how the two finnishes wear, id rather have the express) and i dern well learned how to shoot that thing!!

few years ago i tried an Automatic again, thing drove me to distraction, didn't recoil right, balance somehow felt wrong, and i kept trying to shuick the forearm!!

now after going 10 years without firing more than 200 rounds at moving targets, i need to get another 870 and start over learning.

P.S. does anyone know of a Sporting clays Facility in the houston area other than ASC (off Hwy 6) and Carter's Country (in spring)??
locally i have access to skeet 5-stand, and trap feilds, through my gunclub (though only on Sunday or groups by arrangement), but due to the limitations of our existing facilities (ie not enough space/land) and PROBABLY a lack of interest within the club, we lack "sporting clays". and i would someday (after i get used to shotguns again) like to try SC.

 

[Norton]

Nothing beats walking away from the line after breaking 25 or 50 straight with a field gun knowing that you have the highest score when others are wearing expensive vests and shooting $10,000 trap guns

Amen.....I regularly outshoot at least half, if not more, of the guys on the line who have those fancy guns....and I've only been shooting since a little before Christmas. To quote our very own Dave McCracken, "It's not the gun."

If I can shoot 21 or 22 clays pretty consistently with a $250.00 gun with a full choke......so much the better as it leaves me more money to spend on other stuff

 

[Darrin]

Let's not forget a shotgun's other use: Home Defense


There, for those of you reading this thread and currently without a shotgun, you now have multiple reasons to go get one: Fun and Protection

 

[riverdog]

Remington Wood

I started shooting Trap and Skeet with a Remington 870 because while I had had an 870 Magnum as a home defense weapon for years, it rarely left the bedroom. With the intention of using it for Trap, I found a second 870 field gun (older, with the steel follower) real cheap and joined a local club. That worked okay but not great -- the 870 field stock isn't ideal for shooting clay games. So I bought a Browning 525 Sporting O/U and my score improved, but that defeated the idea of shooting a gun similar to my HD shotgun. The Browning 525 fit me much better.

I wanted the 870 to fit better so I ordered an Wenig New American (look under "styles") and after a lot of planing, filing and sanding I had a much better 870 stock for shooting Trap. The New American has a high offset comb, an asymmetrical grip and it toes out at the shoulder. It feels great. I shot it a few times, and due to the comfort and the significant improvement in my shooting (right there with the O/U), I decided the LOP was right; then had a local shotgun smith add a Pachmyer recoil pad. He did a great job. I now have more money in the custom stock than I paid for the shotgun, but it’s a good fit and it looks good. The stock and fore-end are finished with pure Tung Oil.

Last September I found an 870TB. The TB is a nice shotgun, but while the wood is a higher grade, it's shaped and fits the same as the field stocks. So I bought a set of Remington Trap wood from Numrich. It fit much better than the field wood and although it didn't have the custom fit of the Wenig stock, it was much less work – until yesterday.

Being the tinker that I am I could not stand the finish on the stock from Numrich. It had that polyurethane plastic look and feel, not real wood. I spent yesterday stripping the finish off of the new Remington stock and found a nice piece of Walnut under that plastic coat. Late yesterday I applied a coat of pure Tung Oil. Both of these stock sets are beautiful. They cannot be mistaken for field wood and they fit me much better.

So now I have two 870’s set up for Trap. Only once did anyone give me the "oh, it's a field gun" snob routine; he was an ??????? so it didn't bother a bit. I changed the stocks to make the shotguns fit better.

 

[wardog]

Clays are addicting. I used to shoot mostly pistol, some rifle, although I've never had much time to dedicate to it. Tried shooting clays and I'm hooked.

It's fun even when you're a beginner. If you start with some of the easier shots, confidence builds quickly.

Once you begin shooting moving targets that explode into dust when hit, shooting old pop cans, paper targets, and dirt clods just doesn't do it anymore.

Get a Beretta 391 auto in 12 ga and shoot Winchester AA "Ultra-Lite Target Loads" all day long and never notice the recoil. Best auto I've ever owned or shot. (although I haven't tried all that many) Even feeds the cheapest Federal loads from Walmart without a hitch.

 

[dghboy315]

i'm glad to hear i'm not the only one. i went pistol shooting today at an indoor range, and as much as i enjoyed it, i started to wish the targets would blow up

that first range session was with an 870. it worked great for me. it seems i have enough of a normal frame that stock dimentions work with me. however, i still want to try more and different styles of shotguns before i decided on the one for me.

 

[Dave McCracken]

I really ought to get over here and out of my own backyard more often. A coupla things...

For the folks interested in defense, a shotgun is the MOST effective weapon used inside its limits WHEN USED BY A SHOTGUNNER. One shot=one perp neutralized.

Back when I was paid good money by the Gummint to stand on a range,shoot up its ammo and teach others to do likewise, I noted that nobody moved past minimal proficiency that did not use a shotgun recreationally. The more one used a shotgun, even at the stylized and rigid sport of trap, the better one was at "Serious" shotgunning.

Do you doubt that hitting little clay Frisbees can aid you in not assuming ambient temperature is a crisis?

The standard clay target used in trap and skeet is about 4.25" in diameter. How many parts of your CNS are about that wide? If you can acquire a target that size moving at 35-50 MPH on one vector, destroy it and repeat on one on another vector within a second or two, chances are you can do the same on perps.

And there's lots of great shotguns out there costing less than a week's pay that will feed and protect your family for generations. Shotguns are very cost effective.

My favorite,of course, is an 870. Second choice, another 870.

As far as the snobbery mentioned, it's from a minority. Many trap shooters are older males, set in their ways, but a friendly and safe newcomer gets plenty of respect, advice and maybe gets to see what shooting a $10K trap gun is like.

And, making a shot with a $200 pump gun that the Yuppie with the Perazzi didn't does have its own savor.

For more good stuff, stop by the SHotgunning board, or meet me at PGC. I'm the big guy with an 870 or two and a grin a yard wide....

 

[Black Majik]

Heh, oh the joys of clay shooting.

I recently took my friend clay shooting, and let him use the over under (686 Onyx Pro) while I had my trusty 870 pump Wingmaster.


He had a blast, I enjoyed myself as well... and for some odd reasons new shotgunners always wanna use my gun so they can hear the slide rack for themselves


As many have stated, I myself have no embarssment using a pump shotgun on the clay field. In fact... its jus' a lot more fun.


Its kinda like a automatic vs. manual transmission thing. To me, getting more involved is jus' more fun.

 

[FNFiveSeven]

pump guns and clay shooting

Nothing against pump guns, but I've NEVER seen anyone shoot a top notch score at a sporting clays tournament using a pump gun. Not ever. The whole manual vs. automatic analogy just doesn't apply here, there's no advantage to using a pump gun (in a clay competition), whereas there is an advantage to using a manual. I have no problem with people using pump guns at the sporting clays range, but it's fairly certain the pump guys aren't serious competitors. As far as the over under Perazzi yuppies, yes there are quite a few of those guys, but there are also quite a few Perazzi-type guys who are damn good. John Kruger is the best in the world and could smoke all of you any time, any day, and he uses an over under Krieghoff. There is an advantage to using an over under, you can choke differently for each shot, try doing that with a pump (or even an automatic.)

 

[riverdog]

What was the topic? Topic drift...

My primary reason for shooting Trap and Skeet is proficiency with an 870, not scoring high -- low 20's is about it. I also shoot both Trap and Skeet with a Browning 525 Sporting. First time out with my 525 the guys I shoot with were stunned at how much better I was shooting; I was on target faster and the birds were exploding rather than just breaking -- 23/25 first time out with the 525. It's a whole lot easier to be good at clay games with a nice O/U. I could probably do much better at Trap and Skeet if I only shot the Browning, but that would defeat my whole purpose in shooting clay.

If your only reason for shooting a shotgun is to get a good score shooting clay birds then the O/U is the way to go. However, an 870 is much more versatile off the clay field -- particularly for as Dave puts it, social occasions. HD is a good reason to be proficient with a good pump shotgun.

An O/U only gives you two shots and automatics tend to be load sensitive -- they're getting better, but none of my 870s are the least bit load sensitive. There is an advantage to being proficient with a pump, 5 or even 8 rounds of anything from 7/8 oz #9 AA's to 3" 00B to Brenneke slugs and you can keep the magazine full while the shotgun is loaded and ready. An 870 need never be empty. My HD 870 always has three rounds of 00B in the magazine and it isn't full. Try keeping two rounds in an O/U safely. Folks like that guy on trial do it but is it safe? See Court TV

Shotguns are like any tool. You pick the right gun for the job. If I was looking for a 25/25 I'd shoot my O/U exclsively, but it would be my last choice for HD.

 

[sm]

It is always the shooter - Not the firearm.

blackrazor :

I respectfully disagree with you again. First on the 1911 platform and now in regard to another platform.

I quit competition years ago. I haven't really kept up with the current names in various games, the principle is the same as has always been and always be.

RUDY ETCHEN used a 870 pump gun to win, 50 years later he did it again with the SAME 870 pumpgun.
http://www.pssatrap.org/Etchens/etchenrudy.htm

> Thread Drift

Revolvers, a platform more "antiquated" than the 1911 pistol , can be fired more quickly and accuratly than other pistol platforms. McGivern did it, I don't have a link and memory escapes the exact revolver. IIRC it was a M&P K frame Smith , this design dates to the 1890's.

Jerry Mickulek continues the tradition...

Jerry Mickulek (World Champion Revolver)

Many persons such as Misseldine and Brister contend the pump gun does in fact have an advantage. Aftr firing the initial shot , the "pumping action" actually enables the shooter to re-evaluate the speed, angle of flight of second bird.

Before the screw in chokes came about, Shooters no matter of what platform, including O/U and SXS shooter ( the two choke selection you mentioned) "stacked the shells".

They/We KNEW what out guns did on a pattern board. So we loaded up the first rd for first bird ( clay ,dove, quail, duck...etc) and the second shell for second shot. On a pump or semi and if hunting one might yet stack another shel for 3rd shot.

I competed with an O/U 3 bbl set with fixed skeet choked bbl. I have run 49 /50 on a Sprting clay course with the 20 ga bbls. Now the other folks were driving me nuts changing chokes, and they were shooting 12 gausge guns. I knew what my loads would do, There was a reason for me shooting shells with sharpie markings on them, segregated in my shel pouch as they were.

I would respectfully suggest you research more,listen more and not make such bold statements.

We have a BUNCH of Top shooters in various disciplines on this board. I'm not in their league, I listen ask questions. I share my experiences when I can.

When I say disciplines I mean from CQB with a handgun in real life and survived,to tell about it... to clay games , to being on Safari....and everything in between and beyond.

Some even use 1911 style guns and Pump shotguns...one reason they continue to is these platforms enabled them to live another day.

 

[cracked butt]

If you are really familiar with a pump shotgun, you give up nothing to an autoloader. At flying targets, I can shoot a pump as fast if not faster than a guy with an autoloader. The autoloader has a longer recoil time, not much more than a pump, but enough. Pumps are also more reliable- you don't have to worry about them jamming up on you when you drastically swicht loads between clay shooting and hunting.

He had a blast, I enjoyed myself as well... and for some odd reasons new shotgunners always wanna use my gun so they can hear the slide rack for themselves

Since I changed to a BPS, I miss the clacketyclack of an 870, the BPS sounds too quiet or refined sounding, but it works for me just the same anyhow

 

[FNFiveSeven]

disagreement can be a good thing

sm,

I'd love to have a good discussion about this stuff, that's what I orginally came to this board to do. I just hope that it doesn't become a flame war or anything like last time (maybe that was my fault).

Anyway, that said, I have to admit I've never heard of this Rudy Etchen guy, but maybe that's because I don't shoot trap. I'm pretty much a dedicated sporting clays shooter. The one thing I've noticed about sporting clays is that no one, and I mean NO ONE, uses a pump gun. However, there are quite a few automatics (mostly Beretta AL 390's and 391's) and a mixture of over-unders.

First thing is, I don't see how you can change your pattern with the shells in a sporting clays competition since, among other things, you have to use factory shells (and have to be 3 dram 7 1/2 or 8 shot).

Cracked: I can shoot my Benelli M1 *really* fast. I can probably empty the whole tube in less than 1.5 seconds (7 shots). Now it's true, I don't really have much experience with pump guns, but I can't imagine you cycling one that fast. I do agree however that a pump gun is much more reliable than an auto when it comes to feeding all sorts of different loads. The Benelli only works well with the full power heavy recoiling loads.

I don't have any issues with pump guns, their reliability makes them the ideal choice for several tasks, but I just don't see competition shooting as one of them. Autoloaders recoil less, and require less steps to operate than a pump (just keep pulling the trigger)... this allows you to focus on the already difficult task of say... breaking two dropping teal shots at 30 yards. I've been to the state sporting clays championship several times and I even went to the nationals once, and I never saw a pump gun in the main event, not one.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Blackrazor, Rudy Etchen was an ATA Hall of Famer, consultant to Remington, NSSA Hall Of Famer, and top competitor on the live pigeon circuit.

A game called Crazy Quail was one predecessor to SC, he was Texas State Champ at that also.

He made the All American team in trap over 20 times, spread over 5 decades.

According to Brister, the only thing Etchen did not do with his 870 was wear it out.

Also, last years Ohio SC champ used an 870.

Here in MD, Tom Gnall and his 870s beat the heck out of lots of folks and their upscale guns.

And while Frank Hoppe(ever hear of him?) uses an Alfermann custom trap gun for shooting his way to the All American team, his recent pic in Shotgun Sports shows him with an 870 and wide grin.

Speaking from personal experience, I noted long ago that I could get off a second, effective shot faster with an 870 than friends with tons of experience could do with their A-5s.

Jerry Miculek, the revolver whiz, is no slouch with an 870 either. He gets off 5 hits on 5 steel plates with an 870 and 00 in 2.5 seconds. So does Corriea, a Mod here.

I shoot trap doubles, skeet, the occasional 5 stand and rarely some SC. I do not find having to pump any handicap. I don't run them often, but it's not the gun. And any lack of choke choice is made up for by simply placing the center of the pattern through the very first leading molecule of the target.

If having a mantle full of trophies was top priority, I might have a different shotgun for that. Maybe. But, my priorities are to get proficient with a very reliable and durable shotgun while having tons of fun.

Here's a challenge for you. Borrow, buy or beg an 870 for a month or so. Get it fitting you,a much simpler process than bending an O/U stock. Shoot no other shotgun. Note that the trigger is clean and light. Now go bust targets. Keep score.

I'll wager the usual flagon of mead that you'll have a slightly different view of how effective pump guns are at the end of that test.

Or, stop by PGC and look for me. I'll be glad to lend you one for a couple of rounds.

 

[FNFiveSeven]

hmmm...

There's some intersting stuff there, I have to admit. What really blows me away is that the Ohio champ used an 870 to win HOA! That's nuts! And I definitely see what you are saying, there are guys out there that can do amazing things with any type of gun, including pump shotguns.

I suppose the main reason I never considered a pump gun was that it seemed to add additional step and offered no advantage over an automatic. It was sort of like choosing to have the extra recoil of the O/U with the single choke of the automatic. I went for the automatic, mostly due to cost issues.

Anyway, I still haven't seen anyone shoot a good score in SC with a pump gun, but maybe that's because I live in Kali? Oh well. Maybe I will pick up a pump gun someday, but after putting near 50,000 shells through my Beretta 390 and Benelli M1, I think I'll have a hard time adjusting to anything else. Force of habit will prevent me from operating the pump after pulling the trigger.

Lastly, while I admit there seem to be a fair number of pump shotgun shooters with more ability than I have, I still don't know what advantage a pump gun offers in any clay game (skeet, trap, etc.), since reliability is not so important (the one advantage I give the pump gun). I guess I could use a pump just to rub it in the faces of those I'm beating, but I wouldn't use one unless I knew I was the best at my club. I always figured that the inherent disadvantages of the pump gun were the reason that they had a special "pump gun" division in SC competition, just like they have special contests reserved for shooters with .410's and side by sides.