Trying to understand these "Transferable Full Auto" Firearms.

[Hammerhead6814]

What does it mean for a full-auto firearm to be "transferable"? Think that SP-1 Colt Guard in the NFA picture thread. Every now and then I'll find a pic on some site and just like here the poster will ad "Transferable" to the caption.

Does this mean that it can be transferred between a Class III and another Class III? Or does it mean that any regular Joe and buy it from another regular Joe?

 

[TexasRifleman]

Transferable means that it was put into the NFA registry before May of 1986. Any machine gun made after that date and put into the registry can only be sold between manufacturers and dealers as "samples" etc.

So, transferables are worth a WHOLE lot more money since there will never (unless we get Hughes repealed) be any more of them.

As for the transfers, that depends on whether the transfer will use a Form 3 or Form 4. You can search around on those terms but basically Form 3's are for dealer to dealer transfers with no tax paid, and Form 4's are transfers to individuals and require a $200 tax stamp.

If you are in the same state you can sell to someone on a Form 4. If moving states it has to go to a dealer on a Form 3 first, then to another dealer in the other state on the Form 3, then a Form 4 to the end purchaser. You will see people advertise "transferable on a Form 4" and that means that if you are in the same state the sale can usually be completed sooner.

 

[rcmodel]

For civilian possession, a machineguns must have been manufactured & regestered prior to May 19, 1986 to be transferable between citizens through a properly licensed class-3 dealer.

After 1986, only a Class-II manufacturer could manufacture machineguns, and they can only be sold & transfered to Government, law-enforcement, and military entities.
Or to a class III as a Dealer Sample he cannot sell? I think.

rc

 

[zoom6zoom]

Right. Simplest explanation is that it means that it's legal for a citizen to own, assuming your state allows it, and that you fill out all the proper paperwork, pay the tax and can afford the damn thing.

Since the supply is limited, it keeps prices high. For example, a transferable Sterling goes for around $8000 dollars. A "dealer sample" Sterling, identical in all respects except for the serial number, costs about $800.

 

[Quiet]

There is also pre-dealer samples and post-dealer samples.

Pre-dealer samples are MGs that were imported into the USA after 1968 but before May 1986.
When a FFL/SOT dealer gives up their SOT status, they can keep any of their pre-dealer sample MGs.

Post-dealer samples are MGs that were imported into the USA after May 1986.
When a FFL/SOT dealer gives up their SOT status, they have to get rid of any post-dealer sample MGs.


The Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibited the importation of MGs for civilian use.
MGs imported after 1968 are LE/Mil/Gov agency or FFL/SOT dealers only.

 

[LHRGunslinger]

If we were going to try to sell the idea of making all machine guns transferable to the government I'd suggest we put a very strong emphasis on the revenue that would be created by the tax stamps.

 

[jmorris]

If we were going to try to sell the idea of making all machine guns transferable to the government I'd suggest we put a very strong emphasis on the revenue that would be created by the tax stamps.

All that would do is make them realize that is one tax that has not gone up at all in many decades. You want the stamp to cost $20,000 go right ahead. It should be obvious they could care less about “making” money when they can just print more.

 

[medalguy]

Transfers to any governmental entity are tax exempt, sorry.

The LAST thing we want to do is plant the idea of transferring any legal gun to the feds. They will simply destroy them, thus forever removing another chance for an individual to legally own one of these fine weapons.

 

[GoingQuiet]

Transfers to any governmental entity are tax exempt, sorry.

The LAST thing we want to do is plant the idea of transferring any legal gun to the feds. They will simply destroy them, thus forever removing another chance for an individual to legally own one of these fine weapons.

I've got a friend that is a smith and he destroyed a transferrable HK machinegun once at the behest of a police chief.

The chief did not believe in civilian MG ownership. So he turned taxpayer money into scrap.

Yeah.

 

[Sam1911]

Jmorris and MedalGuy, you missed his point entirely:

If we were going to try to sell the idea of making all machine guns transferable to the government I'd suggest we put a very strong emphasis on the revenue that would be created by the tax stamps.

Re-read it this way:

If we were going to try to sell, to the government, the idea of making all machine guns transferable, I'd suggest we put a very strong emphasis on the revenue that would be created by the tax stamps.

He misplaced the indirect object of the sentence, making the meaning very unclear.

 

[medalguy]

Sounds MUCH better. Think also of all the WWII and Korea bringbacks that are still sitting in Uncle Jack's attic which were not registered in 1968. Now imagine if they offered an open-ended amnesty to get every possible machine gun registered and on the books. This is not even considering opening up the manufacture of new weapons, just the stuff that's already out there. Put, say, a $500 one-time tax on registration of existing machine guns and keep the transfer at $200. We could be talking some serious money here, and it would get a lot of existing guns on the books.

Nah, makes too much sense for it to even be considered.

 

[Quiet]

AFAIK, there was one time during the mid-70s, when they had an amnesty period so vets come register their bring backs under the normal $200 tax rate.

Starting in the early-80s the .mil clamped down on bring backs, so it's very unlikely the BATFE will ever have another amnesty period.

Since the creation of the NFA, the tax needed for transfer/manufacture has never increased.
If the BATFE matched the tax with inflation, the 1934 $200 tax stamp would be around $3272 for 2010.

 

[Mike OTDP]

The amnesty was in 1968.

There are moves afoot to hold another. ATF records prior to 1968 are known to be faulty, and there are quite a few WW2 vets passing away...and leaving their heirs with a MG that might or might not be properly papered.

Which is worth quite a bit of money IF it's papered.

 

[Corey]

If you are in the same state you can sell to someone on a Form 4. If moving states it has to go to a dealer on a Form 3 first, then to another dealer in the other state on the Form 3, then a Form 4 to the end purchaser. You will see people advertise "transferable on a Form 4" and that means that if you are in the same state the sale can usually be completed sooner.

It will go to the dealer on a Form 4 with tax paid, not a Form 3. Form 3 transfer must have an SOT as both the transferor AND the transferee. Anytime an individual sells an NFA weapon to another individual and it goes through a dealer there is 2 tranfer taxes paid.

As a side note, tranfers to OR from a gov't agency are tax exempt on a Form 5. I purchased a used silencer once from a Sheriff's Department and it tranferred to me on a Form 5. I lived in the county at the time and the sheriff signed the form as both the transferor on the front, and the CLEO on the back.

 

[CleverNickname]

If you are in the same state you can sell to someone on a Form 4. If moving states it has to go to a dealer on a Form 3 first, then to another dealer in the other state on the Form 3, then a Form 4 to the end purchaser. You will see people advertise "transferable on a Form 4" and that means that if you are in the same state the sale can usually be completed sooner.

You can do a transfer from you to an instate SOT who then transfers to an SOT in a second state who then transfers to an unlicensed buyer in the second state, but that's more complicated than it needs to be. There's nothing preventing you from transferring it directly to an out-of-state SOT on a form 4.

AFAIK, there was one time during the mid-70s, when they had an amnesty period so vets come register their bring backs under the normal $200 tax rate.

The amnesty was for 30 days, ending December 1, 1968. It was done right after the 1968 Gun Control Act was passed. It wasn't limited to vets, anyone could amnesty register firearms. IIRC amnesty registration was free too.