TSA delay at airport.

[DoubleTapDrew]

when all else fails, uttering "lawsuit" will likely snap them into reality.

Just out of curiosity has anyone (successfully or unsucessfully) sued the TSA on a firearms related issue? Every time I've flown they seem to have an arrogant "above the law" attitude.

 

[Ranb]

Here is the reply to the complaint I sent a few days after my flight to Vegas.

I am sorry it took so long to respond. The inspector who was present at the time of the incident has been out in the field. I just received his responses to your inquiries.

I hope this answers all of your questions.

It not TSA’s position to cause any undue stress to our travelling public. If this was the case, we apologize.

Q: "...I want to know why the TSA could not recognize that four silencers were in the gun case during the first inspection.. They did not have any reason to suspect that my silencers were unregistered for the same reason they apparently did not suspect (correctly) that my AR-15 was an unregistered machine gun."

A: I cannot speak for the TSOs involved but I suspect that they may have been focused on ensuring the firearms had been properly declared to the aircraft operator but subsequently noticed that other items in the case may be silencers. Contrary to the passenger's belief, I think that most people, to include law enforcement officers, would not automatically think that all silencers they come across are legally registered. However that may be the first question they may ask the person in possession of the items - Are they legally registered?

Q: "... Why didn’t the TSA wait until I reached them before they unlocked and opened my rifle case?"

A: From recollection, the first responding LEO had asked the TSO if they were able to open the case so he could examine the suspected silencers. At first the TSOs thought they did not have a key but a STSO managed to find a key that fit and opened the case for the LEO.

Q: "... Why is the TSA asking for my social security number and proof of registration for firearms? None of these are required to fly with firearms in checked luggage as far as I know."

A. It was a Port of Seattle LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) who asked for the passenger's SSAN. I can only recall the LEOs asking the passenger for documents/registration pertaining to the silencers. It is not unusual for the LEOs to run a NCIC check on the passenger and the firearms. In fact, the passenger carried copies of his registration of the silencers with ATF with him. When I suggested that may want to leave a copy of the registration for the silencers in the case to avoid future incidents, the passenger said that he considered the documents too sensitive in nature to leave in the case which is why he carries them with him.

Q: "... I would also like to know by what authority the TSA has to demand my SSN and firearm registration forms."

A: I don't recall for sure but if anyone asked for the passenger's SSAN, it was probably a LEO. From my recollection, POSPD reports still include a person's SSAN if obtained by the LEO. I do know that TSOs had stopped asking for people's SSAN a long time ago, so I do not think it was a TSO who asked the passenger for it. I have never experienced a TSO asking anyone for firearms registration. Again, I think the passenger was referring to his registration documents for his silencers.

Q: "... What regulations can you show me that allow the TSA to inspect my luggage without waiting a reasonable amount of time for me to be present?

A: The transportation security regulations Title 49 Code of Federal Regulations/

At least three POSPD LEOs responded to this incident to include a SGT and a POSPD Armorer. TSOs suspected that the items may be silencers but were not sure. TSO also did not know if silencers were legal to have in Washington so TSO called for LEO assistance. The first LEO to respond was not a gun expert and after viewing the machine image of the items inside the passenger's case called for a LEO with more experience with firearms. It was when the second officer arrived (a POSPD armorer) that the LEOs asked the TSOs if they could open the case so they could get a closer look at the items. The TSOs then unlocked and opened the case for the LEOs. The LEOs determined that the items were silencers but the LEOs were not sure of the requirements for a person to legally possess such items. In the meantime a POSPD SGT arrived on scene to check to see if everything was under control and subsequently left. The responding LEOs then learned that civilians could only legally possess silencers registered with the ATF. Furthermore, we learned in Washington State… a civilian could possess ATF registered silencers but not to use them within the state. This information was obtained by the officers prior to when the passenger returned to the screening location and is the reason LEOs asked the passenger for proof the silencers were registered with ATF. At the time of the incident the passenger was fully cooperative and did not register any dissatisfaction with the process. In my opinion the TSOs acted responsibly and were professional and respectful in dealing with the passenger.. .

TSA Security Inspector SATO

What do you think?

Ranb

 

[doc2rn]

start recording with your cellphone cam or pocket recorder. Do not argue. Comply. Plenty of time to file comlaints and even lawsuits afterwards.

I did this and I was assured I would miss my plane 10 mins later her boss shows up because I wouldnt move and the line was backing up all because she wanted to call a piece of fudge my daughter bought semtex. Kid you not! Then when I started laughin she got beligerant in front of her boss and she told her to chill. Told her to have a twinkie and a nice day! Got it all on my phone too. Showed it to my boss at DoD, next day her super calls me personally to appologize.

 

[larry_minn]

IMO the only part I really would have problems with is them opening up my LOCKED gun case. My understanding is ONLY the owner can do that. Did you have TSA locks on it? (which to my understanding is not good)
They had time to call THREE seperate Officers. (called one who after realizing he had no idea called a second. So a third shows up to see if first two have a clue) Why not page owner first, have him open cases, have him show paperwork/ not bother the Police at all?

 

[AWorthyOpponent]

regulatory requirements to transporting firearms, firearm parts or ammunition

The key regulatory requirements to transporting firearms, firearm parts or ammunition in checked baggage are:

* You must declare all firearms to the airline during the ticket counter check-in process.
* The firearm must be unloaded.
* The firearm must be in a hard-sided container.
* The container must be locked. A locked container is defined as one that completely secures the firearm from access by anyone other than you. Cases that can be pulled open with little effort do not meet this criterion. The pictures provided here illustrate the difference between a properly packaged and an improperly packaged firearm.
* We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container. You should remain present during screening to take the key back after the container is cleared. If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane. Federal regulations prohibit unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) on aircraft. TSA locks are not approved for securing firearms.
* You must securely pack any ammunition in fiber (such as cardboard), wood or metal boxes or other packaging that is specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.
* You can't use firearm magazines/clips for packing ammunition unless they completely and securely enclose the ammunition (e.g., by securely covering the exposed portions of the magazine or by securely placing the magazine in a pouch, holder, holster or lanyard).
* You may carry the ammunition in the same hard-sided case as the firearm, as long as you pack it as described above.
* You can't bring black powder or percussion caps used with black-powder type firearms in either your carry-on or checked baggage.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

Seems to me that they should have waited for you to go on the plane, and if you didn't respond, simply not put the firearm on the plane. The thought that they had keys (for TSA Approved Locks) means that they either violated federal laws for letting you use a TSA Approved lock, or that "key" they found was really a set of lock picking tools.

It is also mentioned that the airliner may impose their own regulations pertaining the transportation of firearms. Like state laws vs federal laws, the airliners regulations can not contradict the federal laws. You may actually want to look into this, it sound like you may have been "victimized" so to speak. Dont know how this would relate to Form 1/4 weapons though

 

[Ranb]

Just about every TSA lock I have ever used on my luggage has been broken by the TSA when inspecting. So I just used the installed gun case locks instead. They are easy to pick. It does appear that the TSA is allowed to open luggage at any time to inspect it.

Ranb

 

[Drail]

The tsa absolutely makes up their own rules as they go along. If you question them on ANYTHING the answer is always "Because I said so" without quoting any rules or source. Read up on the woman who was forced to remove her nipple rings with pliers before being allowed to board a flight. I can assure you that wasn't from any rulebook. Of course I would never question anything they say or do. It will get you the same reaction as flipping off a cop.

 

[KenWP]

Any sane person flies with locks that are coded for TSA keys and then they don't get excited so bad. I allwasy laugh when I get home and find a peice of paper in my luggage saying they had checked it out and refolded my cloths so well. Funny thing was the last time they had checked out the luggage with the food items I had imported and didn't touch the one with the 2 foot long knives in it. I also allwasy make sure I don't reload and such before I travel to cut down on nitrates on the outside of luggage especially my carry on.

 

[chuckusaret]

Guys, the TSA has keys for about every-known luggage lock. When they say your luggage must have TSA-approved locks it's because they have a right to enter your luggage. They don't need you present.

Not true. Per the TSA " The container must be locked. A locked container is defined as one that completely secures the firearm from access by anyone other than you. I have a luggage gun safe that attached to my luggage and has a combination lock. After my luggage has been checked thru TSA they have never asked me to open the gun safe nor have they attempted to open it. The TSA has opened my luggage and did leave a card so stating that my luggage had been opened and inspected by the TSA.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Here is the reply to the complaint I sent a few days after my flight to Vegas.

What do you think?

Ranb

Frankly I'm surprised you got -ANY- response at all.

That said, since there were apparently multiple agency officers involved, they will now all stand in a circle and point to the fellow on their right as being the "problem child".

The only "rules" the TSA follows are the ones that happen to be in any particular agent's head at the moment. All that written stuff is more like "guidelines", as it were.

 

[zoom6zoom]

Above is correct, don't use TSA locks on gun cases. It's a good practice to keep an additional padlock inside the case in the event they break yours off, then it can be locked back up with the spare.

 

[Tim the student]

I think you got a bunch of smoke delivered to you. I'm surprised by the response, but it generally seems worthless to me. I'd like to see how the LEO's recall this event.

 

[dullh]

I don't ever get asked for ATF forms because not owning class III arms and accessories is the way I avoid hassel...plus I don't fly so easy enough.

 

[Ranb]

Any sane person flies with locks that are coded for TSA keys and then they don't get excited so bad.

When I say my TSA locks are broken by the TSA, I do not mean opened, I mean broken as in they no longer function as a lock and are worthless. I am used to finding TSA notices in my luggage, that is no problem. The only problems I have are the ones in the OP.

Ranb

 

[larry_minn]

I had started flying 5+ times a yr before 9/11. Never any problems. I didn't fly again till 02 and it was not bad the first couple times. (NG walking terminals was strange to me) About the time they left things went to pot (IMO) Nasty TSA folk. One seperated me from my bilfold, walked me 20' away and ORDERED me to face away from my bilfold (sitting in open in those little plastic dish with my car keys,belt buckle) I kept turning my head so I could watch it and he was yelling threats. (all 5' of him) ASKED him to move my bilfold out of public area. More crap. Finally my future wife walked back and grabbed my stuff. (she had gone ahead/they did NOT know she was with me) and NOBODY questioned her. That was the last time I cooperated with idiots to that level.
Next time in Tampa. I was at the gate and before they were going to allow us to board plane they wanted to do a 2nd inspection. (we had gone thru "INsecurity" Reverse discrimination was the rule. Whites lined up all others board the plane. (ok maybe they had a threat that a white person/male/female/young/old was going to blow it up) SURE
The lady infront of me had her purse dumped out on table. The TSA person fingered almost everthing. INCLUDING her bilfold. "lets see Sears car, Visa, a ........" Verbally commenting on every card. My turn came "Place your feet in the marks hands strait out. The guy starts wanding me. I said. "Honest Officer I thought she was 18" (not long after that Bruce Willis Sudden Impact movie) The gal at table says " put your bilfold on the table" I did but when she reached for it I put my finger on it. "My bilfold it just fine. Only a POLICE OFFICER will touch it" She said she needed to inspect it. I told her she did not. (use the force) Ok I was ticked. She said "ok....next"

I also had a PILE of advantages. First I really did not want to leave FL that day. Second I had a car there I needed to bring back to MN at some point.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I have not flown since 9/11. I drive everywhere.

 

[archigos]

I prefer to fly, its safer than driving. That being said, I don't like having to deal with TSA - especially knowing that I'm paying for them to harass me.

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

I have a friend of mine, a older guy who flys all over the world for work. Fifty plus trips a year, here is something he does that gets his bags out of most inspections. He takes along with him two of his oldest pairs of underwear, the kind with skid marks and folds them so as soon as you open the bag you see the skid marks, most people at that point just zip the bag closed again. He does this to his carry on too.

I wonder if you can put clothing in your gun case?

 

[Walt622]

I have not flown with a weapon after 9-11, however I did have a situation with the TSA and a weapon. I was responding to a service call for a machine in an airline office. I had already checked out of the hotel before heading to the call, my carry weapon tucked nicely in my overnight bag. After arriving at the airport I learn that I will need to drive my car onto the airport grounds. OOPS…. My escort shows up, and a couple minutes later a TSA employee shows up to search my vehicle. He steps out the gate and asks me to open the trunk, I said ok, opened the trunk and said “we have a bit of a problem”. He asked me to explain. I told him about the weapon. After telling me I can’t take it onto the ramp he called his supervisor and arraigned for me to leave it at the security office. After dropping off the pistol and completing the job I went to pick up my gun. He called me into a small room and placed my pistol, mags and ammo in small cubby hole. As I reached into the cubby hole I noticed 3 cameras inside aimed right at me, and no way to get my stuff without looking straight into the cameras! I had to laugh to myself, no attempt to hide the lenses at all. God only knows what will happen to me the next time I try to board a flight!

 

[bigalexe]

I have not traveled with Firearms but have traveled with the following AS CARRY-ON Items.

-1 Medical oxygen tank about the size of a 3-liter bottle, Detroit to NYC and back in a day.

That was one hell of a trip because Detroit passed it through no problem and NYC LaGuardia just about kicked me in the face as they turned me around. 20 minutes later i got a very nice apology from the same agent. On a recent trip i took the following.

-1 Laptop sized Ventilator
-1 Portable Medical suction machine
-accompanying supplies; which includes tubing, filters, humidifiers, catheters, tools (scissors, pliers, and tape), extra tracheotomy tubes, saline bullets, KY Lubricant (helps get a trach in) ect. I think you get the idea here.

What i have found is that traveling with this stuff means you need to carry the written requirements from the TSA website, it helps expedite things.