Tuning up the triggers

[BCRider]

Having finally gotten to shoot my Colt copies I found that all three of them have quite a long trigger pull where I can feel the trigger sear sliding against the lip of the hammer. I'd like to trim down the hammer lip to shorten the pull needed for the release and I'm wondering what you lot are using for a lip depth and how much of a radius you put on the corner of the hammer lip and the trigger sear. I'm not worried about doing the work accurately. I've done a few of my semi autos already with great results using a stoning jig and shims to control the amount removed. I just don't know what is commonly used for the dimensions on the parts for the BP Colt style guns. I'm not looking to make it a hair trigger but just to get some improvement.

Also Im finding that the mainsprings on the two 1860's must be a little soft in that it's letting the caps jump off the nipples when fired. Mind you the nipples are too small for the #11's that are all I've got. Or would switching nipples to some Tresos fix this issue?

 

[mykeal]

Tresos should be a much better fit to your No. 11 caps regardless of brand. I'd try that before changing the hammer spring (mainspring), especially since you can't specify or predict the spring rate.

I'm a bit stymied by the trigger creep problem. I've not encountered that in my bp single actions. Wish I could help.

 

[BCRider]

Hmmmm... I may need to do some studying on all this. I found this following my post above when looking to see if there's any trigger action writeups out there. I think I'm going to start with a one sided jig that will hold the trigger and hammer in the same spacing as the gun's frame and look over the geometry to see what the situation is like for myself.

quoted from Cylinder And Slide;
The reason that we have to charge more for the action job on the clones is due to the incorrect geometry of the hammer.

The full cock notch on the Italian clone revolvers is set too far back into the hammer. This will allow the 1/2 and 1/4 cock notches to strike the trigger nose if the trigger release is only pulled far enough to clear the full cock notch.

Once we have done a trigger job that lightens the trigger pull, the trigger is pulled only far enough to release the hammer, if you are squeezing the trigger properly instead of jerking it. This allows the 1/2 and 1/4 cock notches to strike the trigger nose when the hammer falls. The trigger nose and the hammer notches are damaged very quickly when this happens. Once they have been damaged the revolver becomes very dangerous. The damaged trigger nose will allow the hammer to be pushed off of full cock and even sometimes will not hold the hammer at full cock. The damage to the 1/2 and 1/4 cock notches will also allow the trigger to be pulled with the hammer in the 1/2 and 1/4 cock position. The pistol will fire if the hammer drops from either position.

To give you a safe and lasting trigger job we must install a hardened tool steel piece in the hammer and re-position the full cock notch forward. this will eliminate the possibility of the hammer notches striking the trigger nose if the revolver is handled correctly.

 

[mykeal]

Bizzare. Never seen that happen.

 

[higene]

Tuning up sidelock triggers

Staying with the topic but switching to sidelock single shots, I had trouble with a Traditions Crockett pistol. Someone else mentioned having accuracy problems. The response he got was "what do you expece? It's a Traditions".

I bought that line and set the Traditions project aside for a year or so. What I found when I took the lock out of the Pistol was that Traditions has an adjustment screw for sear engagement adjustment which allows you to reduce the trigger pull to a very manageable level and therefore increase accuracy. I believe that is a feature that other more expensive locks would be wise to emulate.

:banghead:

 

[rcflint]

As mentioned previously, the edge of the sear notch may often be behind the half cock notch. there should be a curve on the undercut of the half cock notch (and safety notch in a SAA). The curved surface is to deflect the sear nose as the half cock notch passes by upon trigger pull.

Mounting the parts on the outside of the revolver with the screws in the holes to locate them, see what the alignment is. If the sear just releasing the hammer allows the half cock notch hook to pass unmolested, or has some clearance, you might reduce the hammer's notch a bit, but it MUST ALWAYS BE DEEPER than the trigger/sear nose is thick.

The sear tip angle can be checked. If the rear of the sear is contacting and the forward edge is not, the triggerpull will be long, the full depth of the sear notch. Reversing the angle of the sear nose a bit to engage the front edge with the hammer notch will reduce the creep by the thickness of the trigger/sear. Some gunsmiths stone an angle on the rear edge of the trigger/sear to move the contact point forward. Care must be taken to never allow the sear tip angle to become a cam surface and allow the hammer to fall off by itself.

Do NOT radius the edges of the sear or sear notch, they should be sharp. Normal wear and use will do that soon enough.

Remington #10 caps fit the best. #11 caps are for rifles.

 

[madcratebuilder]

The trigger creep on most replicas is from a deep sear notch on the hammer. I have used several techniques in the past, from stoning the outside radius of the hammer to soldering shim stock at the back of the sear notch. Stoning can cut through any surface hardening very quickly so I avoid that as much as possible.

Some notches are really deep, .020-.030 to deep and that's a lot of material to stone off the hammer. Lately I have filled the back of the notch with Devcon (JB Weld) and shaped as needed when dry. This was worked out well and I'm not removing any material from the hammer.

You can find a lot of info on-line about trigger/sear/hammer interaction and positive and negative angles. Smartflix.com has many DVD's about trigger jobs, any of the single action ones well give you the general idea of what needs to be done.

A few hours work can give you a very crisp trigger pull that is smooth and safe.

 

[BCRider]

RC and MCB. Some excellent info in both posts. I'm busy as a one armed wall paper hanger for the next few days to a week but once I get some time to study the situations with both guns I'll be CLOSELY examining both guns with your suggestions in mind.

I also found an excellent artcle on tuning the classic Colt style innards at this site;

http://www.hobbygunsmith.com/Archives/Oct04/Interview.htm

It's got a huge amount of good info. Especially how it deals with the bolt engagement issues that occured when the cylinder was spinning too quick to catch the bolt. Now I'm not saying that ALL of this is needed for every gun but the information is there to be used as required. That and the other sight about watching for the sear bounching off the half cock notches is all good. I'll use what is needed and keep the rest in mind for "some day".

I was wondering about the case hardening. The idea of soft soldering a brass shim in place and file that down with a safety edged jewelers file for a nice crisp pull sounds like a great idea.

MCB, I hear you about the "rounding" reference. I think I worded that badly. The "rounding" I was suggesting would be the slight back angle of the sear edge so that the contact point is moved slightly closer to the edge of the hammer hook. On the .45 1911 I've done this produces a nice "glass break" style of release as the hammer sort of kicks the last bit of the sear travel once the edge passes the lip of the hammer. We're on the same page but my terminology is lacking due to being quite new to guns but long in time with metal working.

 

[denster]

That is an interesting article on hobbygunsmithing. I would suggest that you ignore the advice about regulating the bolt timing by working on the hammer cam. That is best accomplished, both pickup and release, by working on the leg of the bolt that rides on the cam. The cam should be polished but no significant metal removal.

 

[StrawHat]

BCRider Hmmmm... I may need to do some studying on all this. I found this following my post above when looking to see if there's any trigger action writeups out there. I think I'm going to start with a one sided jig that will hold the trigger and hammer in the same spacing as the gun's frame and look over the geometry to see what the situation is like for myself.


Quote:
quoted from Cylinder And Slide;
The reason that we have to charge more for the action job on the clones is due to the incorrect geometry of the hammer.

The full cock notch on the Italian clone revolvers is set too far back into the hammer. This will allow the 1/2 and 1/4 cock notches to strike the trigger nose if the trigger release is only pulled far enough to clear the full cock notch.

BCR,

C&S is talking about the Model P clone, the C&B colts clones do not have 1/4 cock notches.

For a jig, as has been mentioned, mount the parts on the outside of the frame. If you have stoned self loaders, study the geometry and you will see what needs to be done. That and applying what others have mentioned. I have used epoxy on the hammer to build up the notch, also drilling, tapping and installing a set screw to adjust the trigger engagemment. These C&B revolvers are a lot of fun, and an education. Doesn't matter if they are italian or original, they all need some work.

 

[madcratebuilder]

That is an interesting article on hobbygunsmithing. I would suggest that you ignore the advice about regulating the bolt timing by working on the hammer cam. That is best accomplished, both pickup and release, by working on the leg of the bolt that rides on the cam. The cam should be polished but no significant metal removal.

100% agreement. Make sure you do not have any burr's on the cam but don't remove metal. You can work on the bolt leg tension and shape, plus if you over do it the bolt is cheaper to replace.

StrawHat's setscrew mod is a good one. If you have the tools it a straight forward operation, and you can control the sear engagement to a thousandth of an inch.

 

[BCRider]

Denster, I concur with your idea of working the bolt instead. I've added it to my "Bag O' Tricks"....

And the setscrew idea DOES sound good. Thanks to how simple a setup the action is this turns it into an adjustable trigger job.