Two many mags?

[InfernoMDM]

Too many mags?

Had a disscussion with a friend. I was wondering if you had a self defense issue would haveing two spare mags get you thrown in jail?

Would haveing more then two spare be worse?

Would carrying a back up gun get you in trouble?

 

[Vernal45]

I would not worry at all. IF you have no spare mag, 1 spare, or 5 spares. If you have to use your Weapon in Self Defense, spare mags are going to be the least of your worries.

 

[beerslurpy]

Where do you live?

Some places I have lived in would interpret everything in a bad light after a self defense shooting. They will latch onto anything to make you look like a brutal killer. Dont use a semiautomatic, a large magazine, multiple magazines, hollowpoints, magnum anything, etc etc. I still get pissed remembering the whole "Bernie Goetz shot them because they were black" nonsense (he shot them because they were trying to rob him). The real solution is to not live in such places.

In other places (like where I live for example) the cops will tend to be cool about people defending themselves and will probably be secretely grateful things turned out the way they did. They arent going to care what you shoot the guy with unless it is obviously illegal. I think most cops apprecitate outcomes that dont involve them having to catch someone or solve a crime. A few years back I think some nutcase started stabbing people in WalMart and some woman pulled a gun out of her purse and made him surrender. There was a little whining from some church group, but the authorities were cool about it. Dunno what would have happened if she shot him, dont imagine much different.

 

[benEzra]

I don't think it would be an issue, generally. Particularly if your mag carrier has two slots. If you were carrying ten spares or something you might look really, really paranoid, and I suppose that could tilt against you in a civil suit, but carrying spare mags should have no bearing on whether a defensive use of a firearm is ruled justified or not.

FWIW, my CCW gun (3913LS) only has an 8-round magazine, so I carry two spare mags (16 rounds) in an Uncle Mike's double mag pouch.

 

[sigman4rt]

Spare mags?

My usual package is a Glock 21 w/2 spare mags in a Miami classic. 2 more on a belt mounted double mag pouch. 2 more 10 rounders loaded with FMJ in my coat pocket, for a total of 65 rds. of HP and 20 rds. of FMJ. Call me paranoid if you will, when the slide locks open in the middle of a gunfight and you have no more ammo to fire, you are truly screwed.

 

[Ivy Mike]

I'd love to hear the response to that loaded question in court.

"Why did you feel the need to shoot my client while carrying spare magazines?"

is the look I'd give him.

 

[sigman4rt]

"Why did you feel the need to carry so many extra magazines?" "Well, I look at it this way, he mighta had lotsa friends!"

 

[Pilgrim]

His helmet flew a hundred feet, his head was still inside. his buddies were all heard to say, what a helluva way to die!!!

He ain't going to jump no more!

Pilgrim

 

[makarova]

I'm gonna say "That was the way I was trained!"

As a graduate of American Pistol Institute(gunsite) My reply will be" We were trained to always carry a reload." Period, end of statement. I am curious what a lawyer, or prosecutor would make of that.

 

[centac]

As a cop, I would just interpret it to mean that you actually had a freakin' clue about what you were doing. I wouldnt worry about court either. A good attorney would argue that they are irrelevent, unless of course you emptied them into the guy or shoved them up his noseholes or something

 

[UPD3315]

I totally agree about having a clue too.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I wouldnt worry about court either. A good attorney would argue that they are irrelevent, unless of course you emptied them into the guy or shoved them up his noseholes or something

I would worry about extra magazines in court. I would worry about every minute detail of the shooting. If the prosecutors decide to come after you for some reason, they will use anything they can to convince the jury that you are a wacko gun maniac Rambo wannabe who went out looking for a fight.

That said, they will probably lose that argument in court, if you have a competent lawyer yourself, and if your shooting is totally and unquestionably justifiable otherwise. However, I bet your feet will get to sweating when they start maligning you in front of the jury. And if they do convince a jury you are a gun weilding maniac, then you get to go to jail for life, or maybe even get to sit in Old Sparky for a few minutes.

Personally, I never carry a reload, but it is not because I am worried about the way it will look in court, I am just too lazy to carry extra mags, and just don't think I would ever need them. I could be wrong about that though.

 

[P95Carry]

''Sir - why do you carry a firearm''

''I am excercizing my (God given) right to self defence''.

''Why are you carrying two spare (loaded) magazines''.

''Because if in the unlikely and unwelcome event that I have to defend my life against a lethal threat, I wish for that action to be as effective as possible, against a potentially unknown number of assailants.''

 

[centac]

Darn tootin' they'll lose that argument in court, just as soon as the spare mags on the Court Deputy's Sam Browne are pointed out

 

[El Rojo]

Actually, I was thinking I would just reply to a question of why I had so many spare magazines with a, "Because I can. The law makes no mention of it." Simple enough and you don't have to paint yourself as a paranoid, Dirty Harry. Then the last response got me to thinking. If you only had two extra magazines, you could simply point to the bailiff and say, "The same reason he/she does, ask him/her." How great would that be? Unless the cop decided to speak instead of remaining quiet and said, "I am judge, jury, and executioner, that is why I carry spare magazines. Leave no witnesses!!!" If the deputy answered in this manner, you might have a problem.

 

[artherd]

I would ask you why you were ONLY carrying 2 spare mags!

 

[Lone_Gunman]

"The same reason he/she does, ask him/her."

The prosecutor with then point out that the deputy is not on trial, you are. He'll then ask you to answer the question. So you'll need to come up with plan B real quick. I don't think it will be as easy to be a smart ass when you are actually on trial for murder, or even if you are just being sued by the bad guys family in civil court.

I think your first answer:

"Because I can. The law makes no mention of it."

Is a much better, less contemptuous answer.

 

[pcf]

The prosecutor with then point out that the deputy is not on trial, you are. He'll then ask you to answer the question. So you'll need to come up with plan B real quick. I don't think it will be as easy to be a smart ass when you are actually on trial for murder, or even if you are just being sued by the bad guys family in civil court.

The best thing to do is keep your mouth shut and stay off of the stand, same goes for talking to the police. Keep your mouth shut, talk to your lawyer, at the advice of your lawyer make or do not make a statement.

BTW, carrying extra magazines is irrelevant, it takes good judgment and restraint to not "recklessly spray all bullets over the place"

 

[MikeIsaj]

I don't think the extra mags matter. There are so many other ways an aggressive, anti self defense prosecutor can hurt you. If they want you to look bad, they will bring up the 100,000 different ways they think you could have handled the incident. What is important is what you did, not what you could have done. If what you did was legal and appropriate for the situation as you experienced it, all the other situations are irrelevent speculation. That's why along with my extra mag or speedloader is my lawyers card. I already know exactly who I want to defend me in a use-of-force case.

All of this re-emphasizes the importance of learning the law as well as anything else you do to prepare for self defense. If you understand what the law requires of you, you will make a good decision. You will also know how to articulate your decision and when to shut up and call your lawyer.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Due to OH's "duty to retreat" requirements , having more than a couple of spare mags may indeed be misinterpreted, but overall, probably not a major issue.

A friend, working LEO, carries 91 rounds of 9mm when on duty. I know the area he works, and don't blame him, but back when I was in uniform (rent-a-cop), about 30 rounds was more than enough to keep me happy. (Wheelgun with six, two dump pouches, and a decorative loop-type holder with about a dozen rounds of FMJ's that were, of course, shootable.)

These days, it's between about 13 and 27 rounds, depending on which gun, and what's in the mags 'cause my "really heavy" carry is a double-stack .45 that can handle 13-round magazines, but prefers 10's, and I never carry more than one spare unless I'm already being shot at.

(Well, when think I shouldn't be there....)

I really don't think that more than a couple spare mags makes much sense - makes your pants fall down, which I don't recommend, and probably would look a little odd in court. No sense in doing that. We have enough of an image problem.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The original query about whether spare mags or a backup gun would get you thrown in jail after a self defense incident is a great example of misplaced fear and fear priority. Ayoob has written quite a bit on various gun and ammo issues that will supposedly cause you a lot of legal hassles, only he doesn't have any proof to support his claims. The result is that people who read his work will often then make gun and ammo choices based on the consequences of what might happen to the good guy shooter after a self defense shooting. This is a bad thing as people will put potential legal hassles in higher consideration than the actual acts of self defense and choosing the gun and ammo that most closely fits their needs.

So here in the orignal post, it is asked if mags or a backup would get you thrown in jail after being in a self defense shooting. This indicates to me that if spare mags and/or a backup would cause getting arrested, then the poster would consider no longer carrying those items. In other words, potential legal hassles are being considered over self defense needs.

If you are end up dead, it won't matter what you were carrying as they don't put dead folks in jail

 

[38SnubFan]

A friend of mine usually carried two spare mags in a carrier or pocket with his 1911 Commander. Although I though carrying 22 rounds of ammo might be a bit much at first, I never considered him "paranoid," just "well prepared".

Only reason I don't necessarily carry a reload is due to the fact I'm a small guy, and carrying a cell phone and gun on my belt is enough, and maybe a small flashlight if I'm out walking at night.

So for me, it's not a matter of legal, it's just a matter of balancing comfort and concealment, and not ending up with hib/back problems from carrying that much stuff.

However, this reminds me I need to order my spare mag for my .45, as currently I'm stuck with only the mag that came with the gun. If I'm carrying the .38 and the pants are loose enough, then a speedloader gets dropped in the right-front pocket.

All that said, we prepare the way we trained to prepare, and for what we each personally feel is the "SHTF" scenario. For some that means 2-4+ reloads, for others only one reload.

For me, it will probably never be more than one reload.

-38SnubFan

 

[Ed]

If (and I hope it never happens) I am forced to use a weapon to defend myself, looking back we would have to establish that the firearm was fired, the threat was eliminated. Ok, so most of the time I am carrying 15+1. So if all of those were fired and I went for an extra mag ( I'm in some bad stuff) If it is over before I empty the weapon, I have not used any extra magazines so who can make a case? I stopped the threat and stopped shooting. I did not load extra rounds and keep firing, so I did what was needed to end the situation and nothing more. I also didn't pull my benchmade and stab him. nor did I hold my cellphone to his head and expose him to radiation while blowing secondhand smoke in his face.

 

[SMMAssociates]

Spy:

I've never met Mas Ayoob, but, courtesy of the old CompuServe Police Forum, I do know some of his friends....

(I also drove by a Holiday Inn Express last night.... )

My own view (I've been a rent-a-cop for 38 years, give or take, and "paying attention" to these matters) is that Mas is rather paranoid. In a good way perhaps....

I suggest that people read him with that in mind, and perhaps avoid some of the potential traps.

The problem here, I think, is the same sort of thing we run into when, as a country, we deal with members of other cultures. Walk by the [pick an object] on the wrong side, even to rescue a couple of kids, somebody's going to take offense, and it'll end up in all the papers, and, perhaps, you'll end up in a Turkish Prison....

Ayoob's message may just be the same - try to avoid avoidable hassles.... Little silly things may get you in trouble, or at least cost you some money, and remember that the press is largely anti ( ), and we may never hear (other than places like this forum) about situations where good sense prevailed because the good guy didn't make a mistake, or had a good enough lawyer to gloss over some of those potential problems.

So, 40 mags and/or a .44 Mag may make you look a little bit more like Dirty Harry than might be a good idea.... (I know, Harry carried a revolver .)

Here in OH, as mentioned before, we've got a duty to retreat that almost makes carrying at all questionable :banghead: , so a couple mags should be more than enough. If you don't get the BG on the first couple of shots, you're probably cooked legally anyway. Multiple BG's may justify a few more rounds/shots, but it's really "duck & cover" time, while grabbing your cellphone. ( - I'm sure I'm being Mas here - it's not quite that bad, but we do have to think about that stuff.)

Which is the point.... Try to avoid avoidable hazards. Keeps the lawyers fees down....

 

[buzz_knox]

This is a bad thing as people will put potential legal hassles in higher consideration than the actual acts of self defense and choosing the gun and ammo that most closely fits their needs.

It's strange that in trying to disparage Ayoob, you actually agree with him. You see, his ultimate point is to identify your needs, choose accordingly, and that if you can rationally explain those decisions to a jury, you should be fine.

There are quite a few good responses to why you are carrying two mags:

1. "Having two magazines balances the load, making carry easier" works well, since many holster manufacturers and authors/instructors have discussed this very point.

2. "Magazines are notoriously the worst link in the firearm system, and most malfunction clearance drills involve replacing the magazine. And if I fumble that drill in a stressful situation by dropping the first one, I still want to have another magazine available." Again, a statement easily supported by articles and instructors, and a whole lot of common sense.

3. "Handgun rounds are notoriously unreliable when it comes to stopping threats posed by human beings or animals. Given that fact, and the growing tendency of criminals to commit crimes in groups, as well as the tendency of some animals to pack together, having several rounds available makes a lot of sense. That's the reason that law enforcement agencies tend to require at least two reloads for each officer, and many agencies require a second gun be carried just in case."

4. "The one thing that every person knows about a stressful situation is that one can easily loose track of what precisely happened. Think about a car wreck, and whether or not you knew exactly what was going on during it. Recognizing that fact, I was trained to perform a reload automatically, so that if I had to defend myself with a weapon against an attack like the one I suffered at the hands of that person, I would have a fully loaded weapon if he or one of his friends decided to continue the attack. The second magazine was a "just in case" one so that if Murphy's Law kicked in any worse than it already was doing, I could have a hope of surviving."