Two newbie target shooting questions about bullets and optics

[presence]

I have been shooting as an entertainment passtime with some hunting mixed in since I was pretty young. Noone really taught me properly, and I learned many substandard ways to do things, and had to unlearn them. I do have some combat training (both with carbines and pistols), but I am trying to go back into the genre for something I actually really wholely enjoy. Ranged target shooting.

My ultimate goal: To shoot non-competitively to ranges up to about 600 yards, for pure enjoyment. I don't want to make this a chore as I have done with so many of my other hobbies. I want to test myself and to learn and achieve decent accuracy at this range. If I accomplish it, I will revisit the goal, but until then, this is my goal.

Equipment: I have many tactical rifles, pistols and other firearms, but for this purpose, I really only have three rifles that fit:

A Springfield M1A national match in 7.62x51 with a Springfield 6-20x56mm government scope. This configuration uses the side mounted scope mount with two thumbscrews on the side. There is no bipod.
A Winchester model 70 custom rifle in .308Win with a macmillan A3, with a leupold Vari-X III 8.5-25x50mm scope. There is a bipod installed.
A Remington R700SS R5 Mil spec in .308Win (currently new, with no optics (one of the questions)). I have a Badger 20moa mount and 30mm badger rings for the rifle, and a bipod. I basically bought a scopeless SWS kit from snipercountrypx.com with all options for the most part.

I want to select the proper scope for the R700. There have been two very convincing schools of thought on the matter, and I need some assistance.

1) Get the highest power magnification quality scope you can afford. I was looking at the Nightforce NSX 12-42x56mm.
2) Get the most versitile high quality scope you can afford. The group is stating that something that goes from as low as 4x to as high as 25x is best. I haven't selected a scope in this range, but of course, nightforce, schmidt and binder and others are in the list.

I can truly understand #1, because if I am going to be shooting at 600 yards all the time, its going to be best.

The argument for #2 is that if I want to use the rifle for hunting, for shorter range, or for other purposes, even 12x is too high in many cases. There is also the argument that at high power mirage and other factors make a big appearance, and you must turn them down to 16 or 20 power anyway.

I have little experience shooting over 300 yards, even with these rifles, so I need some guidance on the above. I will be shooting from 100 to 600 yards. I want to shoot paper, but if I want to hunt, why wouldn't I use the R700?

So to get some time in, I want to take the M1A out to the range, and work with it. But, if I understand it, the rifle is suited to the M80 round, or a 7.62x51 round with a 147grain bullet. Unfortunately, this isn't a match round. The M118 is a match round at 173grain, but I don't know if I have much access. I can reload either, but I don't have a good load for it...I do have a progressive press and some experience though. I want to do this because 1) I want to start with the 6-20 scope I have and SEE if at 600 yards it will do what I need it to do. 2) To give myself more trigger time at the longer ranges, and 3) So I can diversify my shooting experiences.

I also have some Fed gold medal match .308 168gr that should work great at these ranges for the Win70, and the R700 to follow up. I just don't want to do this yet, as I don't want to remove and change scopes on the model 70 since they are lapped and matched...and I have yet to buy the R700 scope.

I do want to get a scope that has the ability to go beyond 600 yards if I find that I have the interest later. In my opinion, quality and durability is more important than simple magnification or cost (within reason). If it makes sense, I would prefer to buy a better scope now and not have to "trade up" later.

Questions Restated:
1) What round should I use for my M1A to train with for target shooting? If I have to reload it, then so be it. I have access and ownership of some M80, but I found it is not too accurate (south african). Any pointer to where I may purchase these rounds would be helpful.
2) What scope would be best to stick on my R700SS R5 milspec for shooting targets from 100 to 600 yards distant?

Follow up questions:
I have a qualified local gunsmith that works only with long distance shooting bolt action rifles.
1) Should I consider putting a muzzle break on the rifle? Recoil on a .308 isn't an issue for me, but if it helps me shoot better, so be it.
2) Should I consider putting in a detachable magazine plate, to make life more easily for shooting

Thanks for your help guys and gals.

Kevin

 

[WNTFW]

Presence,
I shot with a Night Force @ 600 and it was the best scope I ever used and most expensive. Other scope in the price are nice also, I just have not been lucky enough to try them.
The ability to use lower power is handy if for no other reason than to dry fire in a small space. I have Super Sniper fixed 16X and it is not easy dry fire at short ranges. SS works OK enough at 600. My shooting buddy just went to a Millet and is happy with it.
Sometimes you can't use the higher magnification. (mirage) Not a problem if you turn it down. Other features should be considered. Clarity and Resolution can beat magnification. Does a scope track well? Are the clicks positive? Are they 1/4" or 1/4 MOA. How much MOA for a full turn? How much windage and elevation does a scope have?

Reticle style can be another choice. The NF I used had a mildot, but the bars and dots were open not solid. I actually liked it a lot.

I recommend you shoot some F Class competitions. They don't have to be an obsession. You won't find a better way to get up to speed. It is also the cheapest way to get out to 600 for a lot of guys with no 600yd access. Range membership $250 or match is $15 at the local range.

(The next 2 items aren't any benefit for F Class. Brake is not allowed & you have to single load)

1) Should I consider putting a muzzle break on the rifle? Recoil on a .308 isn't an issue for me, but if it helps me shoot better, so be it.
Nobody likes to be around a guy with a muzzle break. I hate them. Every body I know hates them. If you get one I'd go removeable. I shot a .223 in F Class at one match. .223 vs .308 I noticed a slight difference after 66 rounds.

2) Should I consider putting in a detachable magazine plate, to make life more easily for shooting

Waste of money in my opinion for a recreational shooter. If money is no object fine. If I had the money I'd be telling what the differences of the top 3 or 4 are. If money is an object spend it on something else. You always need something else. I would work on getting all my range gear squared away. Spotting scope, 2way radios, shooting mat or whatever you need. I would put the money into a better stock, optics or trigger first. I'd spend it on ammo or a .22lr rifle. You would be better served having a rifle that truly fits you than having detachable mags.

Do not discount shooting a .22lr for practice. Shooting long range is really about basic marksmanship. The wind and mirage are the new things you should have to learn to deal with. If you shoot well at short range you will be getting results straight off.

Shooting the M1A with what you have makes sense. There are some high power loads that should be a good starting point. Handloading is the way to go.

This Bad Boy sounds like a Winner:
"A Winchester model 70 custom rifle in .308Win with a macmillan A3, with a leupold Vari-X III 8.5-25x50mm scope. There is a bipod installed."

I hope you have some success stories you can post back here.

Good luck,
WNTFW

 

[presence]

WNTFW:

Thanks for your input on this. I am going to spend some time researching, shooting, and then make the decision.

Regarding the reticle, I am looking at the nightforce NP-R1 (or the NP-1RR) if I buy a nightforce scope. Otherwise I will go with Mil-Dot. If they don't have mildot/mil-line, I probably won't consider them.

As to the muzzle brake, I concur with you when I am lined up for training, the guy with the muzzle break really pisses everyone off, even outdoors. When you are on the line within 2 feet of the guy with the brake, there is no way to prevent the gas discharge from being annoying. The noise isn't as much of a problem with good ear protection. I am pretty much used to the blowback in my face and hot casings down my neck, so I pretty much ignore them any more. I didn't figure this was as big of an issue with bench, or casual shooting outdoors. Regardless, I think I will wait until I shoot it to see if I really have a problem. The only thing is, I could save some time and money to get all the work done up front instead of parceling it out.

I am going to skip the DM plate for now.

I have a .22lr 10/22 and a few pistols, but I don't have much that is "target" worthy. I have been very pleasantly surprised at how well the 10/22 shoots at 100 yards though, even with crap ammo. The good thing about the 22lr is that I can shoot at the indoor range thats open 24/7 near my house. Do you have a recommendation for a decent bolt action 22lr that won't cost an arm and a leg? I have been looking at the Winchester 22 wildcat, and the CZ models. Any pointers here?

Once the weather becomes more tolerable (and there are days already where it is), I will get out to do this as often as I can.

Yeah, I know people are going to say "Why did you get the R700SS when you had a perfectly good win70 already?" Two reasons, length and weight. I want to be able to run around with my rifle, and honestly, at almost 30 pounds, the win70 really is a prone/bench rifle, and not a mobile rifle. I don't think I would enjoy shooting the win70 offhand either. I want to train all shooting positions. Although the m1a is probably 15 pounds with scope, mount and ammo, it still is far better to train with in almost every case. I feel that the 70 will help me practice trigger control, breathing, windage estimation, and to get better muscle memory. The reticle on the 70 is a target dot, so hold-over, range estimation, and anything other than driving tacs is kind of out of the question.

 

[madd0c]

I have the nightforce NSX 12-42 x 50mm on a Tikka T3 tactical with a harris bipod.
By far the best setup I have. I have had minimal effects from mirage with the setup, and If you are going to be shooting prone or bench, then I don't think you could get better optics for the money. I have friends with S&B scopes, so I get to shoot with those frequently, and I think I can tell a slight difference with the glass, but I personally cannot justify the $2k extra for the S&B.
One thing that might make a difference to you that could possibly justify the extra cost is a first focal plane reticle. It is a very nice feature that the point of impact doesn't change during magnification changes. Night force also is making FFP reticles in their 3.5-15x scopes now as an option for around $600 more per scope, but not in higher powers that I know of.

hope that helps,
madd0c

 

[presence]

Madd0c: Thanks for the opinion. I don't want to pay more than 2k for the scope...only if it REALLY matters. I think for 600yards, its unnecessary. I will still look at them though just to know what sizes up where. Do you use your rifle for non bench or prone shooting? Do you shoot less than 300 or so meters? Have you found that the magnification was simply too much even at 12x?

I do find it odd that all of these scopes don't have a first focal plane reticle. The idea that the spacing is only ideal at a specific magnification is an oddity. I'm sure there is a significant reason for this, but its truly strange to me.

 

[WNTFW]

Presence.
OK, I was wondering about the Win 70. I have a Rem700 & I know what you mean. It is about at the upper limit of mobility for field use and would be long for brush.
I have a target where my group size doubled under AK fire. And it was outgoing. Incoming fire would have really blew them out!
As far as the .22 the savage bolt actions have a good rep as do the CZs. Rem, Marlin and Mossberg also have some guys singing their praises.
I have a Marlin 60 that I am in the middle of accurizing attempts that is quite good as is. I honestly don't know where to draw the line with bulk pack ammo anyway.
Savage make a new .22lr that looks like it wood be a great choice ergonomics wise. It is a MK II TR in case the link fails.
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/MARKIITR

I am in no way a "Gear Queer" but that rifle has me having feelings I don't understand.

I have a friend with this one. I hear they are great but he is modest and doesn't brag.
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/MARKIIBTVLSS
We plan to get together, I just have not had it on a range yet.

I have heard mixed reviews on the Winchester. That may be how it is or just skewed opinions. I thinkg they are Russian made and have heard good thing on the Russian version. (IIRC)

You seem like you would be honest with yourself and know when to blame yourself and when to look at the equiptment.

You may want to end up trying some 'High Power' matches for position shooting. Sniper type matches are also something that might be good. I know you said you aren't looking to be a match shooter. Matches are a great place to meet good people. You get a good idea of realistic expectations. They can be a treasure trove.

I find that the pace of shooting for recreation doesn't warrant anything quicker than single loading. I still think working from a internal magazine is good to verify feeding

Another thing I think is important is to fire a single shot, break position and regain position for another shot on a different target. Natural point of aim is a key component of good shooting.

 

[WNTFW]

The NF was this one 8-32x56 NXS

Reticle = MIL-DOT: Field tactical
http://nightforceoptics.com/nightfo...EW/8-32x56___12-42x56/8-32x56___12-42x56.html
http://nightforceoptics.com/nightforcescopes/8-32x56.jpg

I got to use the scope/rifle because I went to a match. It belonged to member of the AMU. I was lucky to be offered it's use. My first shot was a 9 high/right. Since it was my first shot with the rifle I decided not to make any correction for my second sighter. S2 was with 3/4 of and inch @ 600yds. That was a big thrill for me. I don't usually get near that good of results. Of course I couldn't keep it up. I had a great day anyway. I shot the best rifle/scope I ever used that day.

The owner of the rifle was Brandon Greene. You will not find a guy with a better attitude to a novice shooter. Everything that he does is positive, I did not pick up on one negative thing. He is a pretty good shooter as well. He set a course record that day.

http://www.odcmp.org/1007/default.asp?page=USAMU_STANDING

I found a video of the range it was at.
http://www.youtube.com/user/GN4NET
I met the guy shooting George - I like that guy also.

 

[52grain]

I have a .22lr 10/22 and a few pistols, but I don't have much that is "target" worthy. I have been very pleasantly surprised at how well the 10/22 shoots at 100 yards though, even with crap ammo. The good thing about the 22lr is that I can shoot at the indoor range thats open 24/7 near my house. Do you have a recommendation for a decent bolt action 22lr that won't cost an arm and a leg? I have been looking at the Winchester 22 wildcat, and the CZ models. Any pointers here?

I have a pair of Savage MkII bolt guns. I recommend them, but stay away from the tupperware stock models for target shooting. In my opinion, the forend is too narrow. I have been thinking about replacing the stocks on both with one from Sharp Shooter's Supply. Everyone around here seems to like CZ, but I have no experience with them.

 

[madd0c]

For your question regarding prone shooting and under 200 yards, yes I do both. For target shooting the 12x is absolutely fine. I guess if I was in a firefight or trying to shoot offhand, then the 12x might be kinda tough, but the rifle is not rigged for that. If you want versatility, then going with a 3.5 - 15x and getting 2-3 moa groups past 300yrds (at least with my eyesight) might be what you are after. I like hanging onto my 1moa past 300.

And the reason for the second focal plane reticle in most of these scopes = cost. Much tighter tolerances required to have a useful FFP reticle (one that actually maintains POI like it is supposed to)
madd0c

 

[WNTFW]

Here is a decent video of 600yds with open sights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oaPpUXvLHA
You can see the mirage. All the open sight shooters are on the right and F Class is on the left.

Brandon is on target 10
One of the guys in the beginning I believe is Gary Henry and has shot internationally. There are at least a few distinguished rifleman that frequent the range. I know one gentleman shooting that day made the President's 100. The majority of the line are pedigree type of shooters.

One write-up of the match in the video that day:
"Heck of a good time at Palo Alto today. Brandon Green gave some shooting lessons while testing his new rifle. He shot a new range record for prone of 599-43X and a 20 shot record of 200-18X. I think his new rifle is a keeper. By the way it is a 6.5 Creedmoor built on a Remington action with a Krieger barrel.

Brandon was also kind enough to loan a couple of BS members his .223 Palma rifle and Nightforce scope to shoot F Class. They looked like they were enjoying it. Maybe they will give a report.

ARboy (one of my juniors) used his service rifle to good effect, shooting a 190-?X; 196-10X and 195-8X.

I managed a decent score with a 596-32X, but I had three pesky high 9s resulting from bad position or follow through.

If you haven't tried it, you should get to Palo Alto and shoot one of the matches. They are really fun."


** If you don't want to shoot a match see if you can attend a highpower clinic in your area.
Here is good place for some position shooting info:
http://www.jarheadtop.com/

 

[Maverick223]

Questions Restated:
1) What round should I use for my M1A to train with for target shooting? If I have to reload it, then so be it. I have access and ownership of some M80, but I found it is not too accurate (south african). Any pointer to where I may purchase these rounds would be helpful.
2) What scope would be best to stick on my R700SS R5 milspec for shooting targets from 100 to 600 yards distant?

Follow up questions:
I have a qualified local gunsmith that works only with long distance shooting bolt action rifles.
1) Should I consider putting a muzzle break on the rifle? Recoil on a .308 isn't an issue for me, but if it helps me shoot better, so be it.
2) Should I consider putting in a detachable magazine plate, to make life more easily for shooting

1) Load your own to find a load that is well suited to the rifle. In general you want heavier bullets for longer range (as long as you can stabilize them with your barrel's twist rate). I don't have any pet loads to share, but search the archives for .308 target loads.
2) For target work I would go with a moderate-high magnification optic in the 15-25x range. I wouldn't go higher due to mirage, and would rather just get better glass. Good quality glass and a durable optic that holds zero with good adjustments is far more important. If you want the best glass quality the Premier Reticles Heritage is hard to beat IMO. One feature that I am insistent on in a target rifle scope is FFP (front focal plane) and matched adjustments to the reticle (I prefer Mil/Mil). These features greatly simplify targeting, ranging, and adjustments, but are premium options. Another consideration is the dual use of your rifle. Target (tactical) optics are not well suited to hunting, and hunting optics limit you at the range. I would strongly consider using two optics on quick detachable mounts (good quality to insure zero retention), or preferably a different rifle platform for each task (the target rifle will be heavy if it has a heavy contour barrel, not to mention other items such as the stock, bipod, scope mounts, et al adding unnecessary weight). If you really want to use it for both tasks (with the same optic) I would use an optic without tactical turrets, because they can be bumped off zero in the field, and a scope that affords low magnification so you won't loose your quarry trying to find it in your scope when it is at close range.


1B) No, .308 has little recoil, and even if it bothered you the (target) rifle should be heavy enough to make this negligible. The brake will be very loud (for yourself and neighboring shooters) and create unnecessary blast that is unwarranted. Leave the brakes for .338LM+ cartridges, that genuinely need them.
2B) That is up to you, but it is handy (not necessary) for target shooting. I don't care for them for hunting, and prefer a hinged floorplate instead. If you use the rifle for both, I would retain the floorplate.