New to Optics/AR15 Questions

[Old Glory]

Hi I am a new to ARs and Optics. I have some questions concerning what Optics to buy. I have two AR15 rifles on order. A 2007 version of the S&W MP Performance Center and a Fulton Armory Carbine with 16 inch barrel.

For the M&P I want a durable scope to shoot 100 to 800 yards (optimistic?). Will be benchrest/BIPOD at the range and plinking in the woods. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Looking for a good scope that will help me shoot tight groups. Thinking of Nightforce, Leopold, and Trijicon Accupoint. Are there any others I should condsider?
price range $400 - $1200.


The Carbine is more difficult. Is it possible to have sight that allows precision shooting out to 300 yards and CQ shooting? Again it will be used at the range and in the woods.
Will an ACOG allow for this type of shooting? Can you shoot tight groups at 300 yards or is it just used to hit silhouettes?
Are any sights capable of tight groups at 300 and quick target acquisition up close?



Thanks!

 

[W.E.G.]

You will have to compromise if you want a sight to do double-duty for close range, and still have a precise aiming point at 300 yards.

I would recommend using two different optics.

I use the EOTECH inside 100 yards. Beyond that, the EOTECH comes off, and the Leupold VX-II goes on.

All you need is a set of QD rings, or one of the gee-whiz lever-lock mounts.

 

[jpwilly]

IMO for close up work a red dot or holographic site works. In conjuntion with a good Variable power scope you'll have the ranges covered. Ether get a 45 degree picatinny mount for the red dot or mount it on top of the scope with a scope ring that has a picatinny mount on top.

 

[4Freedom]

Ether get a 45 degree picatinny mount for the red dot or mount it on top of the scope with a scope ring that has a picatinny mount on top.

Hey you have any web links explaining about this setup? I am starting to think that buying a short-mid range scope and 45 degree holo sight would be a real nice setup. How accurate would the holo sights be at a 45 degree angle? I am still trying to comprehend the dynamics of this setup. Can you explain more about this and what reasonably priced holo sights would work with it? Do you have to tilt your gun at an angle to fire it? LOL. Or does the sight just appear at a right angle? How would this affect accuracy? I am thinking I would like a Bushnell Holo Sight or UltraDot, something cheaper but still godo quality. Perhaps I can use a nightforce or leupold scope for the mid range stuff.

 

[jpwilly]

Yankee Hill Machine for example

Daniel Defence 1 O clock Mount for miniture red dots

There are scope rings that offer mini picatinny rails to mount mini red dots.

 

[4Freedom]

Ok, but what type of holo sights work with these rails and can they be easily mounted on a Rock River Tactical Carbine A4 and DPMS Sportical 5.56? Both guns I describe have a flattop (Rock River has detachable handle). How would it work on the guns I described?

 

[expvideo]

if they have a quad rail system, or space in front of your optic on your receiver, the mount puts the miniature reddot (doctor optics, for example) at a 45 degree angle from your main optic, so that you can easily tilt your rifle and use the secondary optic.

 

[SilentStalker]

I don't understand this whole mounting of optics at an angle deal. It seems to me that shooting your rifle at an angle would throw your accuracy off considerably. However, I cannot speak from personal experience as I have never shot anything with a set-up like that. I have seen set-ups where they have a scope and a red dot site in front of it where they are using them together though and people seem to like that. I have never shot with that set-up either, but I would like to. I am with the original poster on this as I am trying to outfit my newly acquired AR as well. All of my other guns just have your typical old iron sites, nothing special and that has worked well for me, but now I want to venture into a new area and try some optics out. I am interested to here more and see more set-ups if at all possible. I posted a few days ago asking about rail and optic recommendations as well as pics but so far nobody has replied so...I guess we will just have to research or experiment on our own until someone post something LOL. My biggest dilemma is trying to figure out whether I want to pay the money for full floating rail system or just get something that can mount to the top and bottom of the rifle and that be it. There is quite a big cost difference as a full rail system will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 while just getting the top and bottom mounts can be had for $50.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The Carbine is more difficult. Is it possible to have sight that allows precision shooting out to 300 yards and CQ shooting? Again it will be used at the range and in the woods.
Will an ACOG allow for this type of shooting? Can you shoot tight groups at 300 yards or is it just used to hit silhouettes?
Are any sights capable of tight groups at 300 and quick target acquisition up close?

ACOG works well for 0-300 work.

There are also a number of variable power deals rugged enough for tactical carbine use. At the low end of the spectrum, price wise, the Millett DMS-1 seems to be well reviewed on this site and elsewhere. You can work your way up price wise through the Leupold CQ/T, Horus Talon, Nightforce NXS, Elcan Spectre (sort of) and all the way up to the S&B Short Dot, which runs about ten times as much as the Millett.

I don't understand this whole mounting of optics at an angle deal. It seems to me that shooting your rifle at an angle would throw your accuracy off considerably.

Those sort of set ups are for making fast shots at close in ranges where the cant of the barrel doesn't really make any appreciable difference.

 

[MCMXI]

I have a question about the height of the rings needed to mount optics to an AR upper. Basically every scope that I've seen mounted to a flat top (mine included) has to be mounted with high or super high type rings for a comfortable head position when looking through the scope. This is because the stock has zero drop/cant etc. How does this affect long range accuracy? Ideally the center of the scope should be as close to the barrel as possible right?

Thanks.

 

[winston smith]

JP Rifles has a video of the 2 optics / angle setup in action. Go to http://www.jprifles.com/4.1.php

or http://www.jprifles.com and click on VIDEOS under the "Site Features" tab,

and then click on the CTR-02 video. (right side, third from top)

You can also mount open iron sights at a 45 degree angle.

 

[4Freedom]

COOL So now what do I do to make my DPMS SPortical 5.56 and Rock River Tactical Carbine A4 like the rifle he has? I am not sure if my guns can be mounted like this.

I think a great setup would be a scope (perhaps TRijicon Acog) along with a halo reflex sight. It looked almost like he had an AIMPoint size reflex sight along with the Acog; nice setup. But I need some advice or help on how I can construct such for my rifle.

 

[winston smith]

You put a quad rail forend on; put a YHM 45 degree rail mount on the forend's top rail (just forward of the ejection port) and mount a small red dot on the YHM rail.

Anyone else? Photos of a setup with an Aimpoint micro are on "another AR type forum" but I forgot which and where.

 

[HorseSoldier]

LaRue makes a combination mount that puts an AimPoint Micro on top of an ACOG. Price tag is kind of steep to run that sort of rig, though ($700+ for the mount and Micro, then add your ACOG).

 

[4Freedom]

Wouldn't buying the Trijicon ACOG with the relex sight built on be more cost effective than buying this model? Although the only Trijicon that has the built-on is 4x. I saw a few for under $1200. Many have told me the docter sight is worthless so I just figured to avoid this. Is this AimPoint Micro different than the Docter sights sold with the Trijicons?

 

[winston smith]

There are a lot of people who will tell you with absolute certanty things that are absolutely wrong. You must judge what they say with YOUR OWN research.

The Docter sights are being used by our troops in Iraq because they work. The ACOG works well at a distance. Going into a building, the ACOG was not brightly illuminated enough. The Docter sight uses a battery, but it is bright enough for a fast transition from sunlight to dark interiors, and of course, is not magnified. It's positioned on top of the ACOG as body armor makes the 45 degree mount and rifle twist difficult. They live with a poor cheekweld. In competition shooting, there is no body armor problem and the 45 degree mount means you can get a good cheekweld.

Is it the best red dot? I don't think so, but I could be wrong! I think the Aimpoints are better, and the micro T-1 or H-1 is small enough to ba a second sight, and it has some great features.

Is the ACOG the best? Again, do some research on what it can and can't do. The m-4 variant has a BDC for the 62 gr 5.56 in a 14.5 inch BBL. Unless you have a SBR or pinned flashhider, you may find a 14.5 inch BBL difficult to buy. But maybe this doesn't matter! It depends.

My best advice to anyone wanting information on the subject would be to go to your public library and ask someone for help in interloaning books about rifles, shooting and rifle optics. Then ask for help in doing a database search for magazine articles about accurate shooting, optics, and what is working or not in the sandbox. Don't leave without asking for help; there are many things you can't find yourself, or might overlook. Read. Search the net. Ask, but verify.

 

[MyRoad]

...or mount it on top of the scope with a scope ring that has a picatinny mount on top.

If anyone has a source for these, I'd appreciate it, haven't been able to find anything like that.

 

[rob_s]

0-300, Aimpoint, not Eotech, and magnifier on pivoting Larue mount. Which Aimpoint? a little guidance. personally, I'd go for the C3 for around $450 with mount from G&R Tactical, and the Larue PoBoy linked to above.

100-800 (yes, that's very optimistic), I'd use a Super Sniper scope to start with. Relatively inexpensive, relatively decent quality. Let's you figure out if this is a game you want to try to play or not. I'd put it in a Larue mount, so that you have a good quality mount when/if you decide to get a better scope.