Two snubs vs. One high capacity gun

[Landric]

When limited to 5 rds, no reload is required and the targets are all up close.

Not exactly, the BUG matches I have shot tend to be set up about the same as regular IDPA matches when it comes to ranges to targets and target location. The difference is that the stages are limited to 5 rounds and there are no reloads on the clock. Of course what I said was "in actual shooting" not "in actual shooting, ammunition capacity, and reloading". Obviously for most people an automatic loads faster, and most automatics hold more rounds than snubbie revolvers, those are advantages to the automatic. What is not an advantage to the automatic IMO is accuracy or shootability, I feel that both platforms perform equally in those areas.

That said, at the very recent IDPA Nationals, Jerry Miculek outshot quite a few semi-auto people using his revolver.

But keep in mind a couple things:

1) The courses of fire were very revolver friendly. (designed by a former SSR National Champion)

2) Jerry did not use a snub nose. He used a full-size revolver with moon clips.

3) No semi-auto shooter could load more than 10 rds in the magazine. When the stages are 18 rds or less, this is significant.

4) Jerry IS Jerry, after all.

Sure, Jerry is Jerry, but he is also proof that revolvers can be shot just as well as and compete with automatics. I'm no Jerry, but I regularly come in somewhere mid-pack overall at local IDPA matches shooting my S&W 681 (fixed sights) that is totally stock, reloading with speed loaders, and shooting ~132,000 power factor .38 Special +P handloads. At the last local match I shot SSR I was 35th out of 64 shooters. Every shooter that finished below me was shooting an automatic. My point here isn't to toot my own horn, 35th out of 64 is nothing to write home about. My point is that its possible to shoot a revolver well enough to compete against autoloaders. Obviously a snub is harder to shoot than a 681, but the sights on the 681 are equally "bad", it just has a longer sight radius, more weight to soak up recoil, and in general a better (smoother) factory trigger.

For full disclousure I should admit that I have not always been a mostly revolver guy. I have always used a snubbie of some sort as a BUG and/or pocket gun. However, up until the last couple of years my primary gun has always been an automatic, and on-duty it still is (though that isn't by choice, I'd probably still carry an automatic on-duty if I could select any gun I wanted). I decided several years back that my revolver skills were not what they should be, and I started shooting IDPA only in SSR (before that I shot in mostly CDP and ESP). Shooting SSR has taught me a lot of respect for the revolver and its advantages and also made me well aware of its drawbacks. Because of all my revolver shooting in IDPA I started carrying a SP101 .357 DAO as a primary because that was the platform I had the most recent practice with. I still keep an Airweight as my pocket gun/BUG.

I do, from time to time, carry an automatic. My current carry automatics are DAO S&W 3rd generations that have very revolver-like triggers, but offer the faster reloading and the generally better factory sights of the automatic. Were I to choose a full-size carry gun, I wouldn't choose a revolver. Four inch, square butt K, L, and N frame size guns are not nearly as carry friendly as their snubbie counterparts. I'd choose to carry a .45 ACP single stack, probably my S&W 4586.

My issued duty gun is a Glock 23 RTF2. Many would consider it an ideal carry gun, but I never carry it off-duty. The Glock just isn't for me. I shoot it well, but its just not what I want in a carry gun; I don't care for the trigger or the grip. Instead, I choose my DAO SP101 .357 and DAO Airweight the huge majority of the time. Otherwise its a DAO S&W 3rd Gen with either the SP or Airweight as a BUG.

 

[David E]

I find that I can get a quicker "first shot" with the j-frame over the G26.

I'm curious, how did you determine this?

Do you carry the G26 chamber empty?

 

[David E]

Sure, Jerry is Jerry, but he is also proof that revolvers can be shot just as well as and compete with automatics.

When the courses of fire are 6 round friendly and the semi-autos can't be loaded past 10 in the mag.

I can shoot 18 rds from my M&P Pro than Jerry can from his 625....if I get to start at full capacity.

Don't get me wrong, I like and own revolvers. In fact, at my recent match, I had a special incentive to shoot a snubby. I'll have it again next month, hoping to get some more participation. I'll shoot my 442 with stag grips from a KyTac holster next time.

When I was a cop, I qualified with a Model 38 from 7 yds out to 50 yds. This included 5 shots fired weakside (holding gun in weak hand, but could use both on gun) at the 25 and 50 yd line. The target was a B-27, 8-ring or better score 5 points. I shot the entire course double action. I had one in the hip for 3 pts and one shot less than an inch outside the black. Everything else was inside the 8-ring. I easily outshot the other guy that day who was using a 6" barreled Colt Trooper, who also fired single action from the 50.

I won a state IDPA title using a 686 will full magnum loads. (the PMC .38's I'd bought didn't even make minor!) It's fun to shoot a revolver and they do have their merits. Every well rounded shooter should be able to accurately fire a revolver in DA, regardless of their ultimate preference in action type.

 

[Landric]

When the courses of fire are 6 round friendly and the semi-autos can't be loaded past 10 in the mag.

I can shoot 18 rds from my M&P Pro than Jerry can from his 625....if I get to start at full capacity.

I think you might still be missing my point, which is likely because I haven't made it very well. Revolvers are just as good as equal quality automatics at putting bullets on target. Automatics can often fire more bullets faster that a revolver due to the lower capacity, but when it comes to actually shooting at targets, revolvers are just as good. Once one gets past that, its all about choosing what advantages and disadvantages one wants to deal with in a defense gun. To some people twice or three times the capacity is more important, to others its the ability to fire at while in contact with the target without the serious possibility of a malfunction. Its all about playing the odds once a reliable gun that shoots a reasonably effective cartridge is chosen. Me, I'm more comfortable with two 5-shot guns than I am with one 16 shot gun. I would never claim that someone who would rather have a single 16 shot gun is wrong, they just have different priorities than I do.

Don't get me wrong, I like and own revolvers. In fact, at my recent match, I had a special incentive to shoot a snubby. I'll have it again next month, hoping to get some more participation. I'll shoot my 442 with stag grips from a KyTac holster next time.

When I was a cop, I qualified with a Model 38 from 7 yds out to 50 yds. This included 5 shots fired weakside (holding gun in weak hand, but could use both on gun) at the 25 and 50 yd line. The target was a B-27, 8-ring or better score 5 points. I shot the entire course double action. I had one in the hip for 3 pts and one shot less than an inch outside the black. Everything else was inside the 8-ring. I easily outshot the other guy that day who was using a 6" barreled Colt Trooper, who also fired single action from the 50.

I won a state IDPA title using a 686 will full magnum loads. (the PMC .38's I'd bought didn't even make minor!) It's fun to shoot a revolver and they do have their merits. Every well rounded shooter should be able to accurately fire a revolver in DA, regardless of their ultimate preference in action type.

Yeah, most factory .38 Special ammunition these days is pretty pathetic. I have heard that IDPA is considering lowering the power factor for SSR because so much factory .38 Special ammunition doesn't make it, even much of the so called "+P" ammunition. I won't change anything if they do lower it as I'm pleased with my current handload for the application.

Much like the inability to drive a manual transmission makes someone a less than reasonably skilled driver, the inability to handle a DA trigger makes someone a less than reasonably well rounded shooter IMO.

 

[Rexster]

For most of my 26+ years' police career, I have tended to carry my primary duty pistol as my main concealed off-the-clock weapon. This was interrupted when circumstances compelled me to give up using 1911s, and to tote a G22 on duty, in 2002. I then started carrying two snubbies concealed, first an SP101 and J-snub, then two and sometimes three SP101s as I acquired more of the little beasties.

Yes, it really was easier to conceal multiple snubbies, and more comfortable. I briefly tried a G27, but it was just as wide as a G22, and the rear of its slide protruded just as far as that of the G22. The G27 went away, and the snubbies stayed.

Moreover, I could shoot the SP101, which FIT my not-so-large hands, realistically better than the G22, which did not fit so well. The grip angle was OK, but the grip was too voluminous for me to grip it well for fast follow-up shots, when shooting one-handed.

One-handed shooting is very street-relevant.

The gun-grappling issue is also very street-relevant. The Glock's voluminous grip scared me a few times when I had to dance with a bad guy before getting the opportunity to re-holster before "going hands."

To be clear, I am praising snubbies the size of the SP101, a bit bigger than J-snubs. Actually, a J-frame with the square-butt grip, as S&W used to offer as an option in many J-frame models, is more shootable than the round-butt versions for many folks. I could shoot a 3" square-butt Model 60, that I owned in the late 1980's, almost as well as a 4" medium-framed sixgun. My SP101s remind me much of that square-butt M60.

Edited to add: I just realized I repeated myself a bit, as I had forgotten about my post on Page 1 of this thread. There are so many of these, I tend to forget the ones to which I have already replied.

 

[David E]

Revolvers are just as good as equal quality automatics at putting bullets on target.

The problem is, it's more difficult to shooot a revolver double action than it is to fire a 1911 or Glock.

Jeff Cooper, who trained a few folks in his time, observed that it took 25% longer to train the revolver shooters to the same level as semi-auto shooters.

Finally, his actual time frames were revealed: It took 20 hrs for the semi-auto shooters, and 25 hours for the revolver shooters. This could be significant in some training schedules, but it shouldn't keep the serious handgunner from learning how to shoot a DA revolver quickly and accurately. Still, the time difference is there.

The other unspoken element is, how much further ahead are the semi-auto shooters having trained those 5 additional hours?

 

[esquare]

The other unspoken element is, how much further ahead are the semi-auto shooters having trained those 5 additional hours?

Not much, plus I think that people complain not so much of the DA trigger pull as the standard crappy triggers on most guns in general. If you ever shoot a revolver with a good trigger, it's not a big deal at all. In fact, I think it gives the shooter an advantage especially during training as it's VERY apparent when you try to snap at the trigger - it develops a much better trigger pull more easily, IMO.

 

[David E]

Define "not much."

The semi-auto shooters reached a certain level in 20 hrs and it took the revolver shooters 25% longer to reach the same level.

Given the same 25 hours the revolver guys require, the semi-auto shooters would be even further ahead.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Lets settle it. I can see a snubby vs compact auto postal match being an interesting experiment. Since the revolver guys trump reliability above all (which so do us auto guys BTW) I would say that any weapon malfunction during the course of fire should be an automatic DQ with the autos but the dual revolver guys can switch to the second revolver. The course of fire should be quick and involve say 8 hits drawing from concealment. No limit on what the autos carry in your mags but any less than 8 (four per target) hits is a DQ. The timer starts when the draw starts and ends with the fourth shot on the second target. Hits should be an a "combat appropriate target" and an appropriate range. A paper plate should approximate a decent hit zone with say 3-7 yards as the range and the plates no less than 3 feet apart? I wonder now many snubby shooters would step up to that challenge? Of course maybe there aren't enough guys with two snubs to try that out.

 

[David E]

I like the idea, but let me suggest one with specifics.

Snubby shooters pack 2 guns, or one gun and a reload.

Semi-auto shooters, gun you typically carry.

Both types are carried as usual. IE; if you pocket carry, you can't use a holster for this, you must draw it from the pocket. Holstered guns will be concealed.

If the semi-auto jams, FIX IT, just like you would in real life. No DQ.

Two IPSC or IDPA targets, one foot apart, one placed at 3 yds, the other placed at 5 yds, with paper plate in center of each.

A shot timer should be used. (there is an app for I-phones!)

Start position: hands at sides, gun(s) in holster or pocket.

At signal, draw and engage either target with 3 rds, immediately engage the other target with 3 rds. Re-engage the first target with one headshot, re-engage the other target with one headshot. (the headshot cannot be on the target you just shot, you must go back to the other target)

Reload or draw second gun as needed.

Time ends at last shot.

xxxxxTarget 1

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxTarget 2




xxxxxxxxxxxxxYou

 

[jon_in_wv]

Exactly why I wouldn't want to be in charge of putting that together. To many different opinions about how it would be done. The thread is about two snubbies vs one auto. A revolver and a reload would be one for a different day. In a 6-8 shot string, fixing a jam is a DQ no matter what. There is no way you are clearing a jam and getting hits on target faster than someone who doesn't have one. Then you would have to argue the value of the headshots, limiting who can enter by using IPSC targets instead of something more common, heck my range has target carriers that are stationary to shooting the two distances would involve me moving and would put be at a disadvantage. Thats why I mentioned it instead of trying to start it. To much BS to deal with. If one of you wants to set it up, lets do it. I'm game.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Both types are carried as usual. IE; if you pocket carry, you can't use a holster for this, you must draw it from the pocket. Holstered guns will be concealed.

What if you open carry as usual?

 

[David E]

In a 6-8 shot string, fixing a jam is a DQ no matter what.

Hardly. If you have a jam in a real firefight you're going to give up? Not this kid.

there is no way you are clearing a jam and getting hits on target faster than someone who doesn't have one.

But it still might be faster than the guy drawing his second revolver....

You had stated in your proposed CoF that the plates be "no LESS than 3 feet apart," which implied you had the ability to set something up a little more spaced apart. My 1 foot between targets is less than your proposal.

IPSC targets are fairly common, but putting a paper plate on them removes their importance, which is why I also added a paper plate. You can put the plates on a sheet of cardboard, so it really doesn't matter if you have access to IPSC or IDPA targets.

The idea of the headshots is a target acquistion drill on a smaller target than was just shot. Lots of folks can't change gears that fast. It should be a little bit challenging, shouldn't it?

Ok, how about this:

target set at 5 yds. A sheet of typing paper is at 9 o'clock and another at 3 o'clock, spaced 12" apart. 12" above each sheet of paper is a 3x5 index card.

Same start set up as before. At signal, draw and fire 3 shots on each sheet of paper, then one shot on each index card.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Sorry if my statement resulted in a mindless hijack of this thread, but it seemed to have run its course anyhow.

 

[Landric]

Jon, I wouldn't have any issue shooting your "course" because it sounds like a lot of fun. However, I'm not sure what its going to prove that we don't already know. I doubt that you will find anyone who thinks that two revolvers will put eight rounds on target as fast as one automatic that doesn't have to be reloaded. I don't recall anyone saying on this thread that the revolver had the advantage of "volume of fire". Quite clearly, it doesn't.

There are a number of advantages to carrying two guns rather than one (note that they don't have to be revolvers). The OPs question dealt with two snubs vs. one automatic. In reality its not an either/or question, but my answer to the OPs question is still that I would prefer two snubs to one automatic despite the fact that the auto can put more rounds on target than the snub can prior to needing a reload.

 

[MisterMike]

To me, this seems pretty similar to the pickup truck vs. sedan question. The same thing just doesn't work for everyone.

I consider myself a competent shooter, but most of you are likely much better shooters than I. I've never been terribly accurate with a revolver, though I am able to shoot pretty well with a semi-automatic. So, for me the greatest benefit is in accuracy. When I add to that the greater capacity of my semi-automatics, the answer is pretty clear.

I understand that many feel a degree of unease if they don't have a BUG. If I felt a need to carry a backup, I'd opt for another semi-automatic. Just the way I'm wired.

 

[David E]

Perhaps the course of fire needs to only be 5 rds....

Two ideas come to mind:

1) 5 yds, a sheet of typing paper at 9 and 3 oclock, 12" apart, one index card at 12 oclock, 12" above the other sheets. Gun is holstered/pocketed, hands at sides. At signal, draw and fire 2 rds on each sheet of paper, ending with one shot on the index card.

2) 5 yds, one sheet of typing paper. At signal, draw and fire 5 rds on the single sheet of paper. (I've already done this, except that my start was "low ready." I have posted the results and pics previously)

I will say that all this talk about snubbies made me drag out the ones I have. Since there is a "State Snubby match" next month, I'll be doing some practicing for it.

 

[IBEWBULL]

A while back I went on a trip to The Grand Canyon with the family.
I took my Glock 20 in 10mm along in a fanny pack. It barely fit in there.
This stayed in the van the entire trip, I did carry a 640 Smith .38 special daily though.
As for 2 snubs, well If they both have the same uses and you are not extending range or power then I think I would pass on this one.
I want something which can do the job at 25 yards and possibly defeat a barrier in most cases. So the .357 , 38 Super, 45 and .40 would be optimum for me.
I do get lazy and do the 640 though after all it is a true pocket gun wirh its concealed hammer and I hit better with it than the LCP.
Visions of the masked man and Tonto are coming on now with 10 silver bulets ready for action.
Sorry I digress and I must go my horse Silver waits.

 

[mjbskwim]

One high cap