Capacity or Reliability?

[Panzerschwein]

Just MHO, of course, but I figure if you have to reload at typical self defense distances aand in most typical self defense scenarios, you're dead. I carry a speed strip of .38s for the pocket revolver and it will also work in the .357. I don't carry it for combat reloading, as I have never been in combat, but for spares after the fact. Occasionally, I'll shoot a water moccasin, once a coyote, and then there's the occasional hog in the trap that must be put down with my .38, nice to be able to top up and go after the shot. I can replace the round in the speed strip when I get back to the house.

Do you really feel that way?? Not a good mindset IMHO.

Getting a good reload down is a good thing. NOT having a reload AT ALL is more likely to get someone killed than trying to reload if they are out in a fight.

I love revolvers and use them as my primary CCW and open carry guns, but the auto generally can be reloaded quicker and with less fumbling than an auto. No doubt. But, that doesn't keep me from practicing with my speed strips and speedloaders.

 

[TestPilot]

I carry a 380ACP self-loader.

But, capacity has nothing to do with it.

 

[TestPilot]

Who has ever read instructions for their S&W J frame recommending that at least 200 rounds need to be shot to "break in" their gun? Just saying?

If one that does not need a "break in" does not meet my operational needs, and one that needs a "break in" does meet it after 200 roudns, then the question is a moot point.

 

[TestPilot]

Just MHO, of course, but I figure if you have to reload at typical self defense distances aand in most typical self defense scenarios, you're dead.

There are many cases where it took more than 6 shots on the torso to take an opponent down. Those may be mostly law enforcement situations, but that is irrelevant since it's not like a criminal's body suddenly get weaker when shot by a regular citizen.

I sometimes only carry a gun smaller and weaker than your 38, and about the same capacity, but I acknowledge its limitations.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I love my lil' J .38 +_ snub. It fits well on my waist and isn't too big or fat, honestly it almost disappears. I think the .38 special +P is good for defense. I do sometimes wish it had more shots though!

But for me, I appreciate the reliability of the gun.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Probably of topic but I wouldn't carry anything that did not run 500 rounds flawlessly. I may have to find ammunition it prefers or modify the gun (like polish the feed ramp or minor gun smithing) to get that kind of reliability but I'd not be secure carrying a gun that has issues or reliability problems.

I'm constantly amazed that some folks shoot target ammunition at the range and then buy a bx of the expensive, highly touted "good stuff" and never shoot it nor proof the gun with it. I'm less worried about revolvers in this respect but still want to see them go bang with the exact ammunition I'll be using to defend my life at least 250 - 500 times.

That's in a row by the way...

VooDoo

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Vodoun da Vinci:

I'm constantly amazed that some folks shoot target ammunition at the range and then buy a bx of the expensive, highly touted "good stuff" and never shoot it nor proof the gun with it. I'm less worried about revolvers in this respect but still want to see them go bang with the exact ammunition I'll be using to defend my life at least 250 - 500 times.

That may well be a good idea, but that runs into more than $500 for the defensive ammunition. Personally, I do not take it that far.

Some years ago, I came upon a site with a discussion of which older 9MM pistol designs were likely to function well with which modern JHP ammunition. The author mentioned the advisability of running 200 or 250 target rounds through a gun before carrying it. I did that, and I then ran a 25 round box of defensive ammunition the same bullet weight and shape through the gun. The guy at the range where I bough the gun thought that to be adequate.

More recently, I fired around 450 rounds of various FMJ ammunition though a new XD-S without a hiccup. I selected a premium defensive load and tried it, and I watched Rob Pincus fire 100 rounds of the same ammunition in the same kind of firearm on a video.

That was good enough for me.

If anyone can relate any experiences that would cast doubt on my thought process, please do so.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I'm from stock that came from Missouri...I gotta see it. Shooting 25 rounds of something and trusting it is just not comforting to me. Then again I won't carry anything for SD I haven't trained with and shot hundreds/thousands of times so I'm extreme.

Character flaw I guess. Guy at the range that I shoot with occasionally feels the same as you do and rotates his carry ammunition every year...couple months ago had an FTF/stoppage with his carry ammunition when he shot them up to buy fresh.

He's looking for another carry round - the gun was a Springer XDs 9mm. The ammo I do not know but it was really good stuff. It happens...

VooDoo

 

[jmr40]

No reason you can't have both reliability and capacity.

I've had more revolvers fail than semi-autos. Revolvers are much more complex and will take much less abuse than a quality semi. Not only are the semi's much thinner, faster to load and lighter, in guns of the same overall length a 9mm semi will shoot 124 gr bullets much faster than possible with a 38 and about the same speed as a 357. And do it with much less recoil than the 357 snubbies.

 

[MCgunner]

There are many cases where it took more than 6 shots on the torso to take an opponent down. Those may be mostly law enforcement situations, but that is irrelevant since it's not like a criminal's body suddenly get weaker when shot by a regular citizen.

Well, I disagree. I'm not shootin' unless I'm accosted at close range. I''m not a cop, not a ninja, not even a pretend ninja for the internet. I just carry to defend myself. I do, always, however, have a NY reload which I figure is faster than me trying to reload my .45ACP which I was never that good at in IDPA and which kept me in expert times when I'd try to requalify. Never really got close to master class, but it wasn't for my shooting scores. I was a little slow and deliberate, but my reloads sucked. I enjoyed watching those master class guys do reloads with their enhanced 1911s, but I wasn't there, practiced it some, just never got fast enough.

Perhaps I should carry my Ruger P85. I have 5 15 round mags I could carry with it. When I drive to Sheridan, a little settlement 5 miles from me, hell, I could take out the whole town with that kinda firepower.

No, I think I'll stick with my system. I'm paranoid enough to carry two guns, but I'm realistic enough to know I don't need a 200 round battle pack to go to Hallettsville or Columbus, Texas for some shopping. Hell, I just got back from Columbus, didn't have to fire a single shot! How about that? AMAZING!

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Vodoun da Vinci

Shooting 25 rounds of something and trusting it is just not comforting to me. Then again I won't carry anything for SD I haven't trained with and shot hundreds/thousands of times so I'm extreme.

The question is, how extreme?

Back in the early days of my corporate life, we developed and delivered manned spacecraft and unmanned spacecraft with reliability requirements that made them essentially "man rated".

There were three kinds of testing. The first was developmental testing, which was intended to determine whether a design would function as intended. A manufacturer working on a new bullet design does that--tries out the ammo in various guns, fires bullets into test media and evaluates the results, etc.

The second was qualification testing, of all natures. The item might be put into vibration and shock fixtures to see how it would withstand launch loads and transportation environments; subjected to heat and cold and humidity and electromagnetic interference; and so on. The purpose was to ensure that the approved design would meet all of the requirements.

Not every component was qual tested. If one item were so similar to another that had already been thoroughly qualification tested, it might be decided to qualify it "by similarity."

And then there was acceptance testing. For pyrotechnic devices, which are like ammunition, one would perform lot acceptance testing--taking a sufficient number from every lot and firing them. For things that are not destroyed when they are used, each item would be function tested before acceptance, either as a component or as pert of the system.

I would not carry a semi auto that had not been fired at least a couple of hundred of times in succession without a failure with ammunition that is very similar in key respects to what I will carry.

The questions are, (1) how many rounds of SD ammunition should I really have to shoot, after having fired a lot of very similar FMJ amnion; and (2) to what extent can I reasonably rely on testing by performed by others of the same ammunition in the same gun?

I do not know the answer. I am looking for an objective answer.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

During the Viet Nam era, the Air Force decided the ideal pilot's weapon was a .38 Special -- and Army Aviation, of course, had to follow suit. I saw many a fine S&W turn into junk in the jungle environment, while the M1911 kept ticking along.

If you hang around these boards long enough, you will run into many tales of revolver malfunctions -- backed out primers, bullet creep, broken transfer bars and so on will all take revolvers out of action.

So I would say the original question, "Capacity or Reliability?" assumes facts not in evidence -- that somehow you get less reliability with a quality automatic pistol.

 

[brickeyee]

The loudest sound in the world is a click when you need a bang.

 

[jrdolall]

I run 200-500 rounds of FMJ through a gun for a break in and I don't get up in arms if I have a stove pipe or two during that period. It normally happens in the first 100 rounds. I then run a minimum of 50 rounds of SD ammo through the gun and require it to be 100% or I won't carry it.

Reloading in the vast majority of SD scenarios is just not going to happen. We are talking about split second decisions to defend yourself and virtually all of these are over within a few seconds. Of course there are the situations where it takes a reload or 5 to end the confrontation but it is impossible to be prepared for every possible scenario. I rarely carry an extra magazine on my body but I always have one in the truck. I know a lot of people feel the need to carry extra and that is probably a wise decision but I just can't find the room to carry extra rounds all the time.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Reloading in the vast majority of SD scenarios is just not going to happen.

But the fewer rounds you have on tap, the more likely you are to need a reload.

With most self-defense revolvers, you have 5 or 6 rounds on tap. With an M1911 and an 8-round magazine, you have 9. That's a 50% to 80% greater chance the fight will be over before you need a reload.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I wanna go back to that statement about revolvers not being able to shoot 500 -1000 rounds without a failure. I'll agree in that I have a couple thousand thru my G26 and never has it missed a lick.

But sincerely I have shot tens of thousands of rounds thru revolvers ranging from my Ruger LCR to S&W M19's and such and *never* had a revolver fail to go bang. I do like both pistol or revolver depending on dress and circumstances and carry both/either.

Have I just had good luck?

VooDoo

We are talking about 1000 rounds without cleaning. Or at least I was but maybe I didn't say it right.

Gunk builds up and it's harder on revolvers.

Deaf

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Roger that, Sir, and thank you for the clarification. It's absolutely true, IMO. I like Vern's point as well - It's dang hard to beat a quality modern auto pistol. I have beat my G26 and my Beretta Px4 up pretty good and never had a failure even when 500 rounds dirty and with ammunition that I was not so happy with.

I don't know if my LCR would stand up to that but I have a test in mind....

VooDoo

 

[orionengnr]

Many of the "micro-nines" only have a magazine capacity of six rounds, the same or one more round over most revolvers.

You are ignoring the round in the pipe. 6+1 equals seven, which is nearly a 50% increase over the j-frame for starters.

My Kahr PM9 also came with a 7-round extra mag, so now I have 6+1 in the gun, and 7 in the spare mag, for a total of 14, nearly three times the j-frame.

Let's not even discuss how long it takes to reload the Kahr compared to the j-frame...or the implications of carrying two speed loaders in the pocket compared to one 7-rd spare mag.

And if you'd rather carry speed strips, yeah, that works, but they are even slower to reload.

Yeah, I have done all of the above. Had about six j-frames through the years, and I still have one. But I honestly don't carry it, and I'm not sure why I own it anymore. The Kahr is smaller, easier to shoot well, much faster to reload, and utterly reliable.

So, my answer to your question is: both.

The two are not mutually exclusive, although many revolver guys choose to pretend that they are.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, if all you want is reload speed......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw

 

[dbmjr1]

A couple of points.

A magazine inserted backwards can be a real issue when someone is shooting at you. Don't think it'll happen to you? Then why do you buy lottery tickets?

A revolver can be reloaded just as fast as a semi, when using moon clips.
No chance of sticking those rounds in the chambers backwards.

 

[ugaarguy]

A magazine inserted backwards can be a real issue when someone is shooting at you. Don't think it'll happen to you? Then why do you buy lottery tickets?

And revolvers, particularly short barreled revolvers lacking full length ejector rods, can easily have spent cases hang in the chambers.

A revolver can be reloaded just as fast as a semi, when using moon clips.
No chance of sticking those rounds in the chambers backwards.

Only by the most skilled and practiced revolver shooters, and that's a skill that takes longer to master than learning how to quickly reload a semi.

 

[MCgunner]

But, but, but, brass wasters SUCK!

Bwaaaaaaaa, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!!!!


Children, listen up! Use the gun that turns you on! Me, I'll stick with what I like. We'll all be fine, I'm sure. The OP has enough material here I'm sure he's COMPLETELY confused. He should do what I did and collect all of the above. Can't carry 'em all at the same time, though.

 

[Cokeman]

During the Viet Nam era, the Air Force decided the ideal pilot's weapon was a .38 Special -- and Army Aviation, of course, had to follow suit. I saw many a fine S&W turn into junk in the jungle environment, while the M1911 kept ticking along.

If you hang around these boards long enough, you will run into many tales of revolver malfunctions -- backed out primers, bullet creep, broken transfer bars and so on will all take revolvers out of action.

So I would say the original question, "Capacity or Reliability?" assumes facts not in evidence -- that somehow you get less reliability with a quality automatic pistol.

Care to elaborate? I'm interested in hearing. I don't have much experience with revolvers.

 

[AKElroy]

It's all about the pants. When my dress slacks are required for work, the J-frame rides in the pocket holster. When wearing jeans, I OWB a wondernine under an untucked shirt.

 

[TestPilot]

By MC Gunner:
Well, I disagree. I'm not shootin' unless I'm accosted at close range. I''m not a cop, not a ninja, not even a pretend ninja for the internet. I just carry to defend myself.
....

What do those have anyting to do with the fact that some opponent might need to take more than 6 rounds to go down?

...
Perhaps I should carry my Ruger P85. I have 5 15 round mags I could carry with it.
...

I am not saying you should. I am saying you should probably acknowledge the limitations when you don't.

When I drive to Sheridan, a little settlement 5 miles from me, hell, I could take out the whole town with that kinda firepower.

You don't know that. Sometimes two accomplished shooters (Cirillo & Allard) shot way more than 15 rounds, just to incapactate one.