Capacity or Reliability?

[TestPilot]

dbmjr1:
A couple of points.

A magazine inserted backwards can be a real issue when someone is shooting at you. Don't think it'll happen to you? Then why do you buy lottery tickets?

A revolver can be reloaded just as fast as a semi, when using moon clips.
No chance of sticking those rounds in the chambers backwards.

Given same amount of training from scratch, no expert shooter denies reloading self-loaders will be faster.

If you're making an argument based on what may go wrong with each system, revolvers do not fare better.

- Moon clip can get mangled inside a pocket.

- Moon clip and speed loaders, may, and very often do, require wiggling to make six different things allign with six different holes.

- When filling up partially depleted ammo gun, you'll either having to end up spend significantly more amount of time picking off only the spent casings and insert 1~2 new rounds at a time, or doing a speed reload and end up wiht loose live rounds on your hand.

 

[BSA1]

I cant help but ask. Why cant a revolver go 500 to 1000 rounds?

I glad no one has told my revolvers that I shoot a lot of rounds through they can’t be reliable for a 1,000 rounds. Some of my guns such as the ones used for CAS get cleaned once a year in the winter whether they need it or not.

Revolvers stay just as clean as semi-auto when shooting jacketed ammo.

More recently, I fired around 450 rounds of various FMJ ammunition though a new XD-S without a hiccup. I selected a premium defensive load and tried it, and I watched Rob Pincus fire 100 rounds of the same ammunition in the same kind of firearm on a video.

Me too.

I have said many times on THR that with any new, new to me or gun that has been worked on such as having the springs replaced must fire 500 rounds without a malfunction that I can not identify the cause of (i.e. bad cartridge, limp wristing, etc.). As a reloader I use my reloads for this testing and then will test the gun with some of whatever defensive ammunition I am interested in.

I also spread my testing over three separate sessions so I can work on my shooting skills and am not just sending rounds downrange.

Given same amount of training from scratch, no expert shooter denies reloading self-loaders will be faster.

With an expert shooter this is a true statement. But how many owners of semi-autos are expert shooters?

Besides this is getting off-topic which is about reliability not tactics.

 

[TestPilot]

By BSA1:
With an expert shooter this is a true statement. But how many owners of semi-autos are expert shooters?

How many owners of revolvers are expert shooters?

Actually, the reload time difference between a novice self-laoder shooter and notice revolver shooter is larger than the reload time difference between Rob Letham reloading a self-loader and Jerry Miculeck reloading a revolver.

 

[TestPilot]

I cant help but ask. Why cant a revolver go 500 to 1000 rounds?

It's an inherent weakness in a revolver. But, let me make it clear that it is more of a problem for training or other use of the gun than combat.

A good revolver must maintain a minimal cyliner gap: The space between the barrel and the cyliner.

As you fire more rounds, carbon build up will bind the two, making trigger really hard to pull. If something impedes the cylinder spin, it is hard to overcome this by trigger pull because cylinder has more leverage (this is the reason why revolver cannot fire in DA mode when an opponent grabs the cylinder).

This cannot be solved by lubricating nor widening the gap which will make the gun dangerous and inefficient due to gas leak.

However, this is not really a weakness in a practical matter for combat. You probably won't be shooting enough for this to become a problem in an armed encounter unless you carry 10 speed loaders. Even a soldier in Iraq who is packing extra magazines wont' be carrying 500~1000 rounds, unless you're in special forces or something.

 

[MCgunner]

You don't know that. Sometimes two accomplished shooters (Cirillo & Allard) shot way more than 15 rounds, just to incapactate one.

And, they were cops, no? I do not think a .357 magnum placed upon the chest or head of an assailant is going to take more'n one to at least dissuade an attack. It never took more'n one for a deer or a hog, not with me pulling the trigger. Humans are a lot thinner skinned than pigs. Anyway, i'll take the "risk".

Another downer to the auto is that when you place that barrel upon the chest with an auto and push it out of battery, it goes "click". It happened to that cop in Fergusson while he and the bad guy were wrestling for his firearm. You can tie up a revolver, too, by grabbing it around the cylinder, but it's not near as easy as pushing an auto out of battery. If, like me, you worry more about wrestling at very close range, that makes a difference. I even carry a mini revolver in my off pocket just in case my strong arm is tied up fighting over a knife or something.

 

[TestPilot]

By MCgunner:
And, they were cops, no?

Irrelevant. Criminals do not get suddenly stronger when shot by cops.

Another downer to the auto is that when you place that barrel upon the chest with an auto and push it out of battery, it goes "click". It happened to that cop in Fergusson while he and the bad guy were wrestling for his firearm. You can tie up a revolver, too, by grabbing it around the cylinder, but it's not near as easy as pushing an auto out of battery. If, like me, you worry more about wrestling at very close range, that makes a difference.

The incident both shows arguments for and against self-loaders. The gun jammed during struggle, true.

But, it is also true that it was the final shot on the head that eneded the struggle, and at that point Wilson fired more than 6.

I'd encourage people to look at the Wilson's interview on ABC. After the gun jam was over, Wilson described how he engaged Brown as he charged towards him for the final time.

"I fired a series of shots" which caused Brown to flinch and pause. When Brown charged again, he fired another "series of shots." Wilson then fired more when Brown did another charge when Brown was finally shot on his head.

This is without reload. Imagine firing 2 shots, then two "series of shots," then more shots with a gun with a 6 shot capacity.

 

[highpower]

Another point to consider is that ammunition technology has increased the effectiveness of all handgun rounds. While I know that gelatin tests are not truly indicative of real world performance, they can give you a baseline for comparison. From what I have seen, new defensive loads for 9mm and .40 S&W are far more effective than those in common use even as little as ten years ago. and are at least as good if not better than better than the .38 special loads.

While I have no doubt that a .357 will provide more energy on target than a 9mm, magnum rounds in a small concealable sized revolver will be a handful for most shooters. If the weapon is made large enough to be more controllable, then concealability is going to be compromised.

As I said earlier, I have had zero failures with my Shield. I use premium ammo and I like the slim profile. For me, the grip feels way better than the grip on a J frame and I can control it better for follow up shots. An extra magazine gives me 16 shots at my disposal. If I can't get it done with that many rounds, I definitely need to practice more.

Lets face it, the chances of an encounter for a civilian is far less than the chances of a police officer. That does not mean that you don't want an effective weapon or ammo, but I think that a lot of the arguments that we engage in are basically exercises in theory.

 

[BSA1]

A good revolver must maintain a minimal cyliner gap: The space between the barrel and the cyliner.

As you fire more rounds, carbon build up will bind the two, making trigger really hard to pull.

This cannot be solved by lubricating nor widening the gap which will make the gun dangerous and inefficient due to gas leak.

I prefer .008” b/c gap. With .008” gap I can easily run 1,000 lead bullets without cleaning. For jacketed bullets .004’’ is ok but I like .006”.

Narrow b/c gap is gunwriter b.s. The gunwriter has to say something to convince the reader what a high quality gun he is tested so he measures the b/c gap. The uninformed believe smaller is better.

Tests show there is little actually difference in velocities due to b/c gap. The amount of difference often is within the spread of the ammunition.

If something impedes the cylinder spin, it is hard to overcome this by trigger pull because cylinder has more leverage (this is the reason why revolver cannot fire in DA mode when an opponent grabs the cylinder).

And a semi-auto can be disabled by an opponent pushing the slide slightly out of battery. (post 55).

I don’t know of incident where an opponent disabled a revolver by grabbing the cylinder. I do know the flame coming from the b/c gap makes a nasty wound.

The advantage of a revolver in close quarters combat should not be discounted. A LEO friend saved his bacon by jamming the barrel into the belly of attacker and pulling the trigger. A semi-auto would not have fired in that incident.

"I fired a series of shots" which caused Brown to flinch and pause. When Brown charged again, he fired another "series of shots." Wilson then fired more when Brown did another charge when Brown was finally shot on his head.

All of the previous shots did not hit center of mass. Which goes to show that the average cop is a rotten shot.

 

[Kleanbore]

All of the previous shots did not hit center of mass.

Brown was hit twice in the head, twice in the chest, and in the arm.

The chest wounds appear to have had little effect. BUT: even had they hit center mass, they may not have stopped him. Unless, of course, they happened to hit something vital.

Posted by BSA1:

Which goes to show that the average cop is a rotten shot.

That comment is preposterous.

Would anyone try to determine "average" ability on the basis of a single data point?

Do we know how well Darren Wilson could shoot?

Does anyone believe that a person under stress who is involved in a use of forece incident is likely to hit a moving target as proficiently as he or she can shoot at the range?

The question was about trading capacity for reliability, though it was likely based on a flawed premise. We need not question the importance of reliability. But there is ample evidence to prove that capacity is important, also.

 

[jrdolall]

Which goes to show that the average cop is a rotten shot

I think that most cops are rotten shots when under duress and that is proven time and time again. I think most people are rotten shots when under duress. Shooting at a paper target, even while attempting to simulate an actual attack, cannot adequately prepare someone for the adrenaline rush and the fear associated with an attack. Practice certainly helps and is really the only way to prepare other than experience. I would just as soon not have to have the experience.

 

[X-Rap]

How lousy cops shoot is often spouted here as though your average joe was a cool headed as an old operator from the teams. Most of us, including cops are untested.
Definitely a false premise in the OP's question, with todays quality firearms, ammo and magazines there is no reason to have to sacrifice capacity for reliability and the difference between the modern compact pistol and the 5 shot revolver becomes more glaring each day.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, I'm not all THAT good at competition and won this against over 100 LEOs from our county and surrounding counties. I didn't see any cops there that were that good. My friend was training officer and i eliminated him right off. He was the one that invited me. LOL Another civilian, a competition shooter, and I faced off for the win. It was a one on one pepper popper shoot kinda like shooting dueling tree, sorta. It was big fun.

OTOH, I shot against some REALLY good shooters, mostly folks from Houston and not locals, some with special ops experience in the service, some swat types, in an IDPA club. Wow, some of those guys were SHOOTERS. There were several master class guys in that groups and two of 'em were cops. I think that club attracted the cream of the crop. I shot slower times in expert with them, moved up from Sharpshooter.

 

[TestPilot]

By BSA1:
All of the previous shots did not hit center of mass.

Even if Wilson had a revolver, it would not have hit center mass. He stated that he was UNABLE TO AIM at center mass when he shot the arm.

We cannot dismiss the possibility that only extremities are available as target in certain situations, which will inevitably require more number of shots to incapacitate.

...
Which goes to show that the average cop is a rotten shot.

Even if I accept this erroneous logic at face value,

does holding a revolver magically transform a "rotten shot" into Jerry Miculek?

All that means is that given the same skill level, less shots available means more probability of trouble.

Fact remains that Wilson, regardless of his skill level, survived becaue he was able to make the final shot which was outside of a revolver's average capacity(Brown was hit at least 6 times, and Wilson admitted to a miss at least once).

I prefer .008” b/c gap. With .008” gap I can easily run 1,000 lead bullets without cleaning. For jacketed bullets .004’’ is ok but I like .006”.

Narrow b/c gap is gunwriter b.s. The gunwriter has to say something to convince the reader what a high quality gun he is tested so he measures the b/c gap. The uninformed believe smaller is better.

Tests show there is little actually difference in velocities due to b/c gap. The amount of difference often is within the spread of the ammunition.

I do understand that some revolvers do fare better than others in this regard, but fact still remains that many popular and good revolvers are susceptible to cylinder binding for one reason or another.

 

[Old Dog]

A couple posters have made points worthy of repeating.

I think that most cops are rotten shots when under duress and that is proven time and time again. I think most people are rotten shots when under duress.

I submit that until you've heard the unique sound of bullets buzzing past you, you can't really speak to how great a shot you are under duress ... and no, competition might be different, but it's not mortal combat. Anyway, I'll go out on a limb here and note that the average cop of my acquaintance is typically a better shooter than the average joe citizen of my acquaintance.
This comment (bold mine):

with todays quality firearms, ammo and magazines there is no reason to have to sacrifice capacity for reliability and the difference between the modern compact pistol and the 5 shot revolver becomes more glaring each day.

Sums it all up. I'll take capacity every day of the week and not have a second thought about reliability.

 

[BSA1]

Poor quality control doesn't make the basic design flawed regardless of whether it is a revolver or semi-auto. If the cylinder of a revolver is binding up it is the result of improper specs, quality control or damaged parts. Sadly Smith & Wesson quality control has gone down the tubes requiring the owner to send it back to the factory or gunsmith for repair.

As for high capacity semi-autos they are proving to be a public relations nightmare for police departments. The public (and some THR members) believe that since LEO's are excellent shots where is the need to fire multiple shots riddling the victim full of holes. It's even worse when more than one officer is involved thus having 30+ bullets flying around.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by BSA1:

As for high capacity semi-autos they are proving to be a public relations nightmare for police departments. The public (and some THR members) believe that since LEO's are excellent shots where is the need to fire multiple shots riddling the victim full of holes.

Not to be rude, but what does that have to do with the question?

 

[mgmorden]

Capacity generally factors little into my reason for choosing a semi-auto over a revolver.

As stated, semi-autos are faster to reload, are thinner to conceal, and most importantly for me have vastly superior triggers to a revolver. Even at the same capacity I'll always take a semi-auto.

 

[Old Dog]

As for high capacity semi-autos they are proving to be a public relations nightmare for police departments.

No. It's not the magazine capacity of the pistols that's been a "public relations nightmare;" rather, it's the judgment of the officers involved in shootings that been called into question ...

As stated, semi-autos are faster to reload, are thinner to conceal, and most importantly for me have vastly superior triggers to a revolver. Even at the same capacity I'll always take a semi-auto.

That too!

 

[Deaf Smith]

I think most people are rotten shots when under duress.

I'd say that's true due to trigger control (or lack of it.) Just not real easy to squeeze that trigger when bullets fly by (and a guy named Hickok, Bill that is, talked about that once.)

And the other Bill, Jordan that is, who talked about 'take your time, fast' had figured that out.

It does not matter how hard you grip your gun either. A jerk of a trigger can send those bullets everywhere but where you want them.

There are ways to mitigate poor trigger control but it takes lots of practice and good training to move the learning curve up enough to help, especially when bullets fly.

Deaf

 

[MCgunner]

Irrelevant. Criminals do not get suddenly stronger when shot by cops.

But, cops are obligated to engage at longer ranges in many instances. I won't engage unless I'm forced to and it will most likely be a very close range. If the incident you site is at 15 to 50 yards, of COURSE they missed a lot. Heck, even at 10 yards they probably couldn't place shots well in the heat of combat with adrenalin dump. But, if I place the muzzle on the chest of my attacker and fire, I ain't gonna miss. If I have space, I'll increase that space while finding cover. I ain't gonna stand out in the middle of the street shooting and dropping magazines. I ain't suicidal.

and most importantly for me have vastly superior triggers to a revolver.

Hey, if you're incapable of learning DA shooting through practice, you can always cock the hammer. DA isn't that tough to learn, though, on a quality revolver. No body gets Glock leg with a DA gun unless they're drunk. All I will carry is DA, pistol or revolver, and I don't even drink.

 

[TestPilot]

But, cops are obligated to engage at longer ranges in many instances. I won't engage unless I'm forced to and it will most likely be a very close range. If the incident you site is at 15 to 50 yards, of COURSE they missed a lot.

Cirillo and Allard did not "missed a lot." And, even they had incidents where way more than 6 were fired to incapacitate an opponent.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, whatever you say. You know best. I guess I'm gonna die since I like revolvers. I will admit revolvers don't spray and pray like high cap nines can.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Care to elaborate? I'm interested in hearing. I don't have much experience with revolvers.

Revolvers are especially sensitive to environmental conditions, since so much of their working parts are on the outside (the cylinder, hand and bolt stop.) Some of the parts are very small, and have to handle heavy loads (the hand, for example.) With neglect in tropical conditions, rust and gunk builds up, and they become inoperable. I've seen them frozen to the point where the gun could not be cocked, and penetrating oil had to be used to open the cylinder.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Which goes to show that the average cop is a rotten shot.

I'd say the average shooter is a rotten shot, cop or not.

When I go by the local indoor range, as I did today, I just see virtually all of them shoot buckshot size groups at 7 yards. Real unimpressed but that is the way it is. And these people pay mucho bucks to shoot (I don't.)

It's a rare bird that puts them all in the black. And if you are wondering, I was test firing a few of my revolvers I did alot of action work to so to verify they are still reliable. All but a few rounds were in the black (even I dip a few), and I shot strong hand only and then weak hand only, slow and rapid fire, to see if the DA action caused any misfires. And i used everything from full wadcutters to JHP factory loads (I use JHPs to 'clean' the barrels of lead.)

Now about revolvers...

if you can shoot fast and strait, a good six shooter can handle most problems. But like I say, shooting fast and strait, while bullets fly, ain't that easy.

It was old Bill Hickok who said, when dared to have a gunfight with a guy who said he could shoot crows on the wing with his sixshooter, "Crows don't pack guns, and they don't shoot back."

See the secret to Bill's ability was a) excellent eyesight, b) he had been in many battles in the Civil War, and c) he just didn't care if he was hit.

Not many people have that kind of learning curve to rely on. Jim Cirillo did, Charlie Askins did (and he said he missed a few to), Bill Jordan did, Jelly Bryce did, but again, they were excellent shots and they had many fights under their belt.

Us mere mortals don't have all that.

Deaf

 

[X-Rap]

And I bet those old timers would say gunfights happen when they happen and they don't follow your script.
Saying I'll do this when this happens and then move on with my choreographed dance is probably not what those old timers would say. Guessing none of them said they wish they didn't have more ammo or gun when the smoke settled.