TX Outback Steakhouse Shooting,gun free victim zone?

[gunsmith]

http://www.kvia.com/Global/story.asp?S=1424761
Three workers at Texas steakhouse shot to death

Texarkana, Texas-AP -- Police say three workers at an Outback Restaurant in Texarkana, Texas were found shot dead today.

Police haven't determined a motive yet, but they suspect robbery led to the slayings.

They say the wife of one of the victims called them early this morning when her husband failed to return from work. Officers arrived to find the restaurant locked. An employee was called to the scene with a key and the bodies were found.
Like most corparations I am sure that Outback forbids it's employees from carrying guns at work.
We should contact media in cases like this!
The killers probably knew that the victims would be easy prey.
Did any of the dead employee's have CCW permits?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

QUOTE:
Like most corparations I am sure that Outback forbids it's employees from carrying guns at work.
We should contact media in cases like this!
The killers probably knew that the victims would be easy prey.
Did any of the dead employee's have CCW permits?
------------------------

From exactly what source do you have it that most corporations forbid employees from carrying at work?

Why should we contact the media in cases like this one? What the heck are you talking about? We need to contact the media in cases where people are murdered, but we don't have any other information and what we do have already comes from the media

The killers probably knew that the victims would be easy prey? Generally speaking, that is how it works if proper victim selection is figured. If the bad guys have any real knowledge about a given situation, or are hopeful about, it is that the target will be relatively easy given the risk. Otherwise, they wouldn't do their thing where they did it. This assumes that for some reason, they chose Outback over some other location and that it simply wasn't a crime of passion of some sort.

Did any of the employees have CCW permits? What would it matter?

So at this point, you are willing to completely condemn Outback Steakhouse for a no guns at work policy that you don't know they have and are willing to fight over the issue when your best source for information comes from a newspaper 1200 miles away from the incident.
You don't know if it was a murder - suicide, robbery, crime of passion or what. All you know is that 3 are dead and the business name.

Given that it is in vogue to do so and given all that you don't know about the situation, I suggest you start staging a boycott.

 

[FJC]

I don't know ANYTHING about this shooting, but I do like what I know about Outback Steakhouse.

Great food, and they support our troops...

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/outback.htm

 

[gunsmith]

gun free victim zones

"Did any of the employees have CCW permits? What would it matter?"

It matters,if the employees had CCW and were not allowed to
carry at work,then the policy of disarming employees should be questioned.

"From exactly what source do you have it that most corporations forbid employees from carrying at work?"

what corporations don't have policies disarming employees? I would rather do business with them. When I worked behind the counter at a Florida 7/11 I was told not to carry any weapon and to cooperate with any robber. Employee's of McD's and BK and 7/11 have been fired for defending themselves with firearms...I will call outback to confirm my guess that they require all employee's do be unarmed

"Police haven't determined a motive yet, but they suspect robbery led to the slayings."

Most likely it was a robbery,like the Wendy's robbery in NYC I suspect it was a former employee. (inside job)

 

[gunsmith]

OUTBACK gun free victim zones

I just got off the phone with 2 random Outback's in TX.
Ashley in North Arlington said NO EMPLOYEE MAY CARRY GUNS!
Corey in FT Worth said no guns allowed!

I am not saying we should boycott,just point out that these policies do nothing to deter crime.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I am not saying we should boycott,just point out that these policies do nothing to deter crime.

I'd say such policies positively encourage criminal predation against employees known to be disarmed.

As far as I'm concerned, jobs are more easily replaced than lives.

 

[twoblink]

How is it that they support our troops over there, but don't support their own troops in the restaurant???

Someone needs to actually explain "no carrying allowed" and the rationale behind it..

Man, if I had a company, I'd go all but "Carrying is manditory". I can tell you theft, crime, etc.. would be about ZERO..

 

[Double Naught Spy]

gunsmith,


Great! Now your hypothesis carries some weight that Outback may have a policy for no guns at work. Actually, what you have is apparently nothing more than the policy of two individual stores and their policy may or may not be actual company policy. Whether or not it is corporate policy has not been determined.

Also not determined by you is whether or not it would have been legal for employees to carry guns at that Outback even if they had licenses and it wasn't against policy. By Texas law, if that business receives 51% or more of income from alcohol sales, then guns are not allowed, inclusive of guns carried by CHL holders.

Please note that I did not say you were wrong and you didn't respond like I had said that. My concern was that you made a series of cause and effect statements based on zero actual information other than there being three dead people at Outback. Even worse is that you have assigned blame to Outback as being responsible when you don't have the information to actually make that assessment or to substantiate your perspective.

At this point, whether the no guns for employees policy at DFW area Outbacks is relevant is still uncertain. As of the last time I checked the news, the motive for the killings was still not being presented. Maybe it was a former employee. Maybe it was just a robbery where the robber had no insight into the policies of the company. Outback may have been chosen for a variety of reasons as a target, many of which might have nothing to do with Outback policies.

Robberies "go wrong" for a variety of reasons. Maybe you are right in that it is an ex employee who didn't want to be recognized. Maybe it was a current employee. Maybe it was a stranger(s) who simply decided to do what about 13% of robbers do even when the folks cooperate and that is to kill them anyway to lessen the chances that the employees could testify against him(them).

Maybe it was an ex lover, stalker, or whatever. Maybe the employees at Outback were involved in some non-legal dealings. Many years ago, the MOB was involved with quite a few pizzarias where management in a couple had to be silenced because they weren't going along with the money laundering that was going on.

My comment about boycotting was a joke. Between the 3 or 4 forums I read, there are literally several hundred companies that gun owners have suggested we boycott because we don't like their gun policies, either at the public level or customer level. Due to the way corporations are owned by other corporations and what not, you really can't boycott all the places suggested unless you are willing to live off your SHTF MRE stash in your NBC shelter.

So, you make the call to arms about contacting the media in cases like this, but you did so on the basis of almost zero information and that information was coming from the media you intend to contact. Maybe in a day or two when some actual details come to light, you may be 100% correct that we should voice our opinions on the Outback employee gun policy being relevant to the killings. Maybe not. Your knee jerk reaction to the event does not seem indicative of wanting information before going into action and pointing fingers and blame and where this has gone in this thread is some sort of lame outlook that Outback is at fault for the killings because they may have had a policy about employees not having guns at work.

The blame is not with Outback simply because of a policy. It will be with the killer(s). The employees would have been made aware of Outback's policies and made the decision to work at outback in spite of the policy. So, being in a work place where guns may not have been allowed was a decision made by the employees themselves. You can't blame the employees either for somebody coming in and killing them even though the opted to work at Outback with Outback's possible policy against guns.

The immediate problem here is NOT whatever policies Outback may or may not have. The immediate problem (assuming this was not murder-suicide) is that there is a very scary person(s) running loose that is responsible for the deaths and that is what is critical. You are rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic as it is going down.

 

[TexasVet]

WWJMBD? What WOULD John Moses Browning Do?

He would probably spit in the face of anyone who tried to tell him he could not carry a gun.

 

[Futo Inu]

Outback is certainly on my boycott list due to their no guns allowed sign, so it's definitely a defenseless victim, gun-free zone for criminals from the patrons' standpoint - probably employees, too. Interesting. And sad.

 

[gunsmith]

00spy

Your knee jerk reaction to the event does not seem indicative of wanting information before going into action and pointing fingers and blame and where this has gone in this thread is some sort of lame outlook that Outback is at fault for the killings because they may have had a policy about employees not having guns at work.

I see your point sir,I get angry real quick at corporate anti weapon policy
because I have quit jobs rather than submit to being disarmed,and your right,I went off ...er... half cocked,without having all the facts.
I apologize for that.
However,I am willing to bet I am 100% right.
I predict that it was an inside job or disgruntled former employee,
and outhouse,oop's outbacks has rules against employee packing guns
even with permits,in states that do not have that stupid 51% alcohol rule.
All that rule does is keep people like me who never ever drink any alcohol
whatsoever from going to outhouse,er,outbacks for dinner.
For all CA's flaws at least if we can get a permit we do not have to deal
with idiot rules like that.
have a good day!

 

[FJC]

The Outback restaurant I frequent in Michigan doesn't have a no-concealed-carry-permitted sign, so it doesn't appear to be a corporate policy...or at least not a strongly enforced one.

 

[Dave P]

00Spy - Gunsmith was making some guesses based on limited evidence an d his opinions - and I'll bet he is more right than wrong. Its too early in the month; Lighten up a notch, will ya?

 

[HankB]

By Texas law, if that business receives 51% or more of income from alcohol sales, then guns are not allowed, inclusive of guns carried by CHL holders.

True . . . but this pertains primarily to businesses (like bars) where the primary business is selling alcohol for on-premesis consumption. While Outback does sell liquor, I'm sure that food accounts for most of their sales, so the "51%" rule is inapplicable.

The Outbacks I've been to in Central Texas do not post PC30.06 signs, and in fact, I've seen Outback as a sponsor of some local shooting competitions. (Trap & skeet, IIRC.)

I don't doubt that some Outback restaurants have a manager who's decidedly "anti" but I don't know what corporate policy is.

It seems to me an "anti" policy would only be relevant in this case if one of the victims actually had a CHL and had been disarmed by company policy - but we don't know that yet.

 

[Skirmisher]

I have always wondered why these anti-gun people who would post "no guns allowed" and believe the sign would work wouldn't go farther and post "no murder allowed here". The results would be the same, but wouldn't they "feel" better???

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Outback bans guns?

It seems to me an "anti" policy would only be relevant in this case if one of the victims actually had a CHL and had been disarmed by company policy - but we don't know that yet.

Not so. If you are considering getting a permit, but see that your employer won't allow carry, you may conclude it's not worth the trouble.

Here in Minnesota, prior to our Shall-Issue law, there were remarkably few "may-issue" permit applications denied. This was not because people didn't want permits, but because they KNEW they'd be rejected, so why bother?

It's called a "chilling effect."

Matt

 

[Majic]

Man, if I had a company, I'd go all but "Carrying is manditory". I can tell you theft, crime, etc.. would be about ZERO..

And you also most likely won't be able to get an insurance policy either. That's what dictates alot of the rules businesses have to go by.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

DaveP, yes, gunsmith was making guesses. He was making guesses based on no actual information other than dead employees at a given eatery. On that guess, gunsmith was already dictating what actions should be taken. He was not suggesting we contact the media to let them know some bad guys killed people at Outback. They already knew that.

On the basis of his guesses and as indicated by his words and thread title, he has couched the blame for the incident with Outback and that we need a select a course of action by making the media aware of this gun-free victim zone.

I am all for placing blame where blame is due. Intimating blame and focusing on Outback as some sort of target rich environment is wrong. To blame Outback for a no guns policy is about as productive as blaming the dead employees for agreeing to work at a place that did not allow them to carry guns...ASSUMING any of them had CHLs and assuming they carried guns. For all we know, they were all anti-gun folks themselves. The blame is with the killer(s), not Outback and not the employees.

FYI I hate Outback. I think their food is way over priced and generally not that good. Their drinks seem overly expensive as well.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

The manager on duty and one of the other employees formerly worked at the Outback in Longview, Texas. I ate there occasionally with my parents when I'd visit.

Longview News-Journal

If I were to 'armchair CID" this, I'd suspect it was either a disgruntled former employee or forcible entry through a back door when the staff took out the trash to the dumpster, as was the likely case in the KFC Murders in Kilgore, Texas in 1983.

It does indicate that the doors were locked at the location, so the 'back-door entry' could be the most plausible. With 3 victims, all in the office, it looks like it was done either as they were preparing to leave or as they were exiting and they were herded back into the store and executed.

I don't know many waitstaff who carry. When I owned a coffeehouse, it was a concealed and armed camp, though. The only chance these folks would have had would have been a panic alarm, though. I doubt that Corporate, no matter how well-meaning, would have consciously permitted management to be armed from an insurance liability standpoint. I don't fault management or the Corporate policy, because my suspicion this was done by persons who had some knowledge of local procedure who had enough finesse to get inside to do this heinous act.

The manager had a 15 month old child; another of the victims was 5 months pregnant.

Hopefully this crime will be resolved quickly and the perpetrators will quickly be sentenced to the eternal celestial dirt nap.

The Lesson:
Be suspicious, be alert. Watch your 6.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

What'd I say?

=====================
From WFAA

Police: Texarkana homicide victims knew killer
12:47 PM CDT on Thursday, September 4, 2003

Associated Press


TEXARKANA, Texas - Police say the shooting deaths of three employees at a local steakhouse weren't random and the victims likely knew their killer.

A news conference was planned Thursday afternoon in Texarkana.

"There's been significant progress in the case, but that's all I can say now," Sgt. Daniel Presley told The Associated Press on Thursday morning.

On Wednesday Police Chief Danny Alexander promised to bring justice.

"I do not believe these were random acts. These victims more than likely knew the person or persons who committed this crime," he said. "And we're going to bring them to justice."

The bodies of Matt Hines, 31, Chrissy Willis, 23, and Rebecca Shifflett, 24, were found inside an office at Outback Steakhouse early Monday where the employees had been doing end-of-the-month inventory.

Shifflett was pregnant, but a new Texas law making it a capital offense to kill a pregnant woman will not apply in this case. The law went into effect three hours before the bodies of the pregnant manager and two others were found inside the restaurant.

Outback Steakhouse is offering a reward of $100,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the killer.

The Texas Rangers and the FBI are helping with the investigation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Online at: http://www.wfaa.com/latestnews/stories/090403dntexslayings.7294d233.html

 

[spacemanspiff]

a place of business may not care if its patrons or customers carry, but for insurance purposes, and quite possibly the anti-mentality of the employer, they may forbid employees from carrying.
thats the 'corporate' policy being referred to here. not that we as patrons are forbidden from defending ourselves, but that those who work for said company cannot defend themselves.

right now, my employer has anti-gun views. i am breaking 'corporate' policy by carrying. my supervisor knows, and maybe one or two employees know (not on purpose, due to my own newbie-ness) and if push came to shove, i would walk out on this job if i was confronted by the boss about my weapon.
it wouldnt take more than a week or two before they called me trying to rehire me, of course at a higher salary and with the concesssion that i will carry. i've had a weapon with me at work for over a year now. havent killed no one yet!

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

Outback Steakhouse is offering a reward of $100,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the killer.

Good on Outback Steakhouse ! That should get some attention.

if push came to shove, i would walk out on this job if i was confronted by the boss about my weapon.

Way to go Spiff ! As long as you understand the ramifications !

 

[Sean Smith]

Before we figuratively burn Outback Steakhouses at the stake, bear in mind that they gave 20,000 troops in Afghanistan a free steak dinner. All the evidence suggests that they are a class act, and there has been no evidence that the corporation in question is anti-RKBA in any sense that matters.

 

[gunsmith]

I learn a new thing everyday

I didn't know about outbacks dinner donation to the troops,that is cool.
& the 100'000$ dollar reward is right on as well.
burns me up that he(or she) killed those young folks.
terrible crime.
double naught was right,I stand corrected!!
I jumped the gun here.

 

[Tim Burke]

I see in the newspaper today that they have arrested two former employees of the restaurant for the robbery/triple murder, as gunsmith surmised early on.
If your place of business is robbed by people that you can identify by name, then you might want to consider that a clue about where they plan on you ending up, and act accordingly.