U.S. News Blurb Re: Beretta 9mm in Iraq

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re: the infamous sand test

1. This is the only test I've seen, that reported failures from Glocks. Not bad for a much maligned pistol.

2. It was posted on the 1911 forum. The most rabid Glock haters are 1911 cultist -IMHO

3. "the Glock 21 is a dog- always has been" Objective? I think not! I never called the 92 names(keep this under your hat, but I plan on buying a vertec someday) The G-21 may not be someone's cup of tea, but it is a good pistol used by Police dept.s from Alaska to Florida.

Again, all I suggested is comparing service pistols of similar age to each other. It sounded reasonable at the time. Still does! I didn't mean to cause all the glock haters knees to start knocking. And to top it all off France dumped the 92G for the Polymer framed, enclosed slide SigPro.MooHAHAHAHAHA:evil:
 
News that France dumped the 92G and is going to a polymer framed, enclosed slide pistol just made Beretta's stock rise in my eyes :cool:
 
Don't forget that soldiers have seen the same movies and TV shows we all have. They just "know" that when a bad guy is shot at with a pistol he immediately dies (at least if the script says so). The good guy never misses and the gun needs only to be to be pointed in the general direction of the BG; no one ever actually aims.

Plus soldiers read the same stuff we all do about the mythical (and I mean that literally) "stopping power" of the .45 pistol. Even those who have never fired, or even seen, a ".45" just "know" that one shot, even if it misses, will cause the BG to fly up in the air 10 feet, be thrown back 20 yards, and immediately perish.

Add in the fact that some "better than us" units are armed with .45's and you have the making of a lot of resentment about second class materiel. Then when they do use their pistols and find that they do have to aim to hit, and that they don't get instant kills with spectacular acrobatics by the shootee, they blame the gun.

Jim
 
I think realistically, ANY handgun exposed to as much sand as one would in Iraq can be expected to have reliability problems. The fact that the Beretta 92 happens to be the one in the holsters of our service men and women garuntees the fact that it will be the one they complain about.

We can all say (fill in the blank) would be a better choice, but I'd bet any handgun subjected to the same conditions would generate complaints of unreliability.

Larry Vickers is not the only one to have had problems with GLOCKs and sand.

Bottom line is sand and firearms don't mix all that well. . .

Shake
 
I don't doubt that current complaints about stopping power may partly derive out of what current soldiers have seen on TV and movies and read in gun magazine articles. Like you say, we all see and read the same stuff nowadays. But that rationale only goes so far.

It would be anachronistic to say that such influences lead U.S. soldiers following the Philippines and British soldiers during WWII to criticize the .38 revolver and 9mm, respectively, for their lack of stopping power.

Certainly, those soldiers may have had their own time specific influences, and undoubtedly the "lack of stopping power" idea may derive and survive as much on theory and on the words of "experts" who've never been beyond their own county border, much less seen combat, as much as it survives on actual combat experience of the men who've been there. Nonetheless, given the recurrence of such stopping power complaints from actual soldiers through the last century with smaller calibers, I have to think there is at least a nugget of truth to those complaints.

But then again, how many men/soldiers have ever really been in a position to judge firsthand? How many soldiers have ever had the opportunity to fire their 9mm handgun dead center into a charging enemy's chest and then have the same experience only with a .45, and be able to compare the results? (No to mention take into consideration other factors like the enemy's weight/size, layers of clothing, distance, etc...). (The British perhaps seem the most likely candidates, and only those who got Stens after already having used Thompsons - and there again, that's talking SMG experiences, not hadguns).

I'd guess (emphasis on guess) that many times the lack of stopping power comes from somebody who hits with a handgun, doesn't get the result he would get from a rifle, and unfairly compares the lesser result of the handgun to his greater experience with the rifle. So, the comparison isn't even connected to another handgun caliber.

In the grand scheme of things, is it worth all the ink that has been spilled over the subject? Who knows. There are still other factors to think about - like shot placement, etc.... I don't think I'll lose too much sleep over it.
 
"How many soldiers have ever had the opportunity to fire their 9mm handgun dead center into a charging enemy's chest and then have the same experience only with a .45, and be able to compare the results?"

There are those that have, and have affirmed the 9mm military rounds as lacking.
 
We seem to be making the same mistakes over and over. I had a talk with my uncle last year. He fought in North Africa in WWII and he said weapons jammed due to sand and improper cleaning. Sounds like we keep forgetting the hard won lessons from war to war.
 
:cuss: Now I know I am in deep s***. Recently someone on this forum said that 147gr. SXTs were crap. This happened to be my primary pistol carry round and has saved my skin a couple of times.

Now it appears that the Beretta is a POS-a gun that I have fired in the rain, saved my hide on a couple of occasions, carry against my body in 100 degrees temperature to the point where it is soaked with perspiration. Heck I get lots of sand in it at the beach which I live close to and visit often. A few blows into the open top slide and the sand goes and it is ready to fire. The Glock my backup seems also to be of questionable quality??? Both guns have their pros and cons but I have learnt to live with them, just as my wife accepts me with my faults. Both have malfunctioned also but I understand that they are machines.. What am I to do??

I am fearful now that I will hear that my M3 Benelli, my last defensive resort is the worst shotgun ever made..

Please guys help me to choose a defensive tool that works, please because right now I am pretty :fire: :fire: In my neck of the woods I do not have a lot of options!! e.g. highest pistol caliber: 9mm and no rifles so bear that in mind. I am :confused: :confused:
 
IB, no matter what you own, there's always someone who bought one that was assembled on a Monday morning and is a POS. Thankfully, with the internet, the unlucky owner can spend hours telling the world how their one bad example is a true sample of all the other 100,000 made. :rolleyes:

The old saw in the sales world is that a happy customer tells several close friends of his positive experiance, an unhappy one tells everybody he knows. Lotss of truth in this - especially in the firearms world.
 
While the enviroment is of course a factor there is alot more to it. I'm currently deployed to the PI and carry around the M9 everyday.

On the Magazines- If you keep them loaded and never relieve the tension of the springs they won't feed correctly. After years of use that is prolly part of the problem not to mention they more than likely don't tell people to relieve the spring tension regularly by taking the rounds out.

Proper Care- It's just something that should be done and needs to be done but isn't. When your busy all day the last thing you wanna do at the end of the day is clean your weapon so they try to put it off till tomorrow and don't understand the importance of having it ready to go until their in an actual fire fight.

Training- I can't speak for the other services but the most training Army does is firing range working on accuracy and technique unless you work in a Special Unit. I got lucky over here since I'm working with so many different SF people and got some advanced training. I know to put 2 in the chest and 1 in the head if they don't go down. The majority of others in the Army would more than likely simply keep firing center mass.

Just some observations since I carry one all day everyday over here.
 
CZ use

R Bull:

Do you have any info concerning reliability reports with the CZ pistols in the military and police from the Czech Republic?

My CZ has been perfect since the day I bought it. It never met a round it didn't like. I wish they would bring the CZ 110 over here. I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

Pico
 
Pico,
I do not know what is the CZ military experience, as CZ 75 is only used by few SF untits, while the regular staff (officers and others who are carrying pistols) still have issued the CZ 82 in 9mm Mak caliber. (CZ 82 is currently branded as CZ 83, which originaly used to be in 7.65 Br only)

Anyway, what I have heard from LEO's, they mostly do like their CZ 75, especially th new P-01, but I have heard few reliability problems from SWAT unit members, due the number of rounds they put thru their CZ's. The SWAT units are also using Beretta's 92 and they do like them very much, considering them more reliable than CZ 75's by slight margin. I have heard this coment before P-01 was introduced though.

In short, if you are changing the slide stop, have magazines in good condition (using red color plastic followers is recomended) and keep the springs fresh (recoil spring, magazine springs and if you shoot really a lot, then also extractor spring), then your CZ 75 will outlast yourself :)

RB
 
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