Uberti 1860 Army Shoots High

[mefitz]

After several (about 10 ) trips to the range sending .452 dia 200 grain round balls down range in my 1860 Army .44 (Uberti) using 30 gr of FFFG using a lubed (Gatfeo1 recipe) wad and cream of wheat on some (not all), I'm finding that no matter what, it shoots high.

About a foot high at 25 yards. About 6-8 inches high at 50 yards.

Any suggestions?
One obvious answer would be to raise the front sight (build it up). Any other ideas?

I have also adjusted BP to 35 grains as well as 25 grains. I used #10 and #11 caps. Doesn't seem to matter.
What am I doing wrong?
Frustrated...

 

[45-70 Ranger]

Well, most will shoot high. It's the nature of the beast so to speak. I'm not being snotty here, but a .452" ball will weigh around 138-140 gr or less. Are you using conicals at 200 gr? They do shoot high for sure. I've had several Colt and Remington style wheelguns that almost always shot high. The rear sight, if you can call it that, has you locked into one elevation. The front is almost always way too short for target shooting.

My thoughts for your situation would be to: 1. Aim low (I know that sounds redundant, but try it.) 2. Leave out the filler and shoot a hotter load (You said you were shooting 30 gr of powder? That will almost fill SOME chambers in that class weapon). Might not be real accruate, but it will flatten out the trajectory a touch. 3. If you feel up to it, build a taller front sight if you're real serious about hitting point of aim. If not, get it to someone that can and insure it is TALLER than needed. Then find a load that groups good, and slowly file the sight down to your desired point of impact/point of aim.

That's the basics of getting them to hit closer to the mark. To describe how to refine all this would take up alot of space Hope this points you in the right direction.

Wade

 

[mefitz]

Ranger
You touched on the one thing that I was looking for, and that was the weight of the projectile. I had read (maybe here or in Lymans BP Guide) that the weight of the ball in this .cal should be around 140 gr or so. I'll double-check that stat as I'm not 100 percent on that! I know I have a 200 gr I shoot in my 45LC that I may have used in this format / caliber. thanks for the idea. Seems to me I shot a few of the conicals to see if there was any difference. Thanks for the reply

 

[Old Fuff]

Remove the barrel and cylinder, and then bring the hammer to full-cock. Can you then pull the hammer back further until the back of the hammer hits the backstrap?

Also the original revolvers seem to shoot to the point-of-aim at about 75 yards. I believe that this was intentional on a "horse pistol" that could be used in longer distance engagements.

 

[Smokin'Joe]

Both Sam & Sam (Uncle & Colt that is) decided to have the military pistols hit Point of Aim at 75 yards. Try shooting at a target at that distance and check your results. Could be your gun is perfect!

 

[DoubleDeuce 1]

Mefitz,
Try 20 gr of powder. Shoot from a sand bag several times to see where the revolver prints... if you haven't done that already.

 

[SAA]

My Pietta 1860 shot high (about 4 1/2" @ 25 yards), and I adjusted the rear sight.

Remove .0115" to lower the point of impact an inch at 25 yards. You can also redeepen the "V" notch and favor one side or the other to fine tune your windage.

Here's mine, cut down .052" and the "V" refiled:

 

[dprice3844444]

aim lower

 

[Hellgate]

SAA did what I do if a Colt Navy or Army shoots high: grind down the tip of the hammer and cut the notch deeper. In effect, you are lowering the rear sight which is easier than raising the front. There is a limit to how much you can take off depending on the clearance of the hammer over the back of the barrel. Sometimes the sight picture is such that there is no lower you can go without losing the front sight due to the back of the barrel showing. Otherwise you need to take out the front sight and insert (I use JB Weld or epoxy glue) a taller blade in the front sight notch.
Let me see if I can get the sight correction formula right:
Correction on the target is to distance to the target as correction of the sight (X) is to sight radius. All units in inches.
12 inches high is to 900 inches (25 yds in inches) at the target as X is to the sight radius. If your gun has a 12" sight radius (front to rear sight) then the formula is: 12/900=X/12 solve for X which is 144/900=.16" to take off the rear sight or raise the front to make it on zero at 25 yards. I will not be offended if someone tells me I'm full of it.

 

[robhof]

I just did the SAA job on my Walker and have it printing POA at 25yds, the max distance I usually shoot my B/p pistols. I use Ky windage for occasional 100 yd and 200 yd shots, just to see if I can get on target. I have managed to hit the gong at 200yd with one shot after walking the bullets there with a spotter.

 

[45-70 Ranger]

Both Hellgate and SSA have done what is common in the adjustment of the rear sight as it exists. In the years that I was working in the gunsmithing business I had a fairly hard and fast rule in the removal of metal: "Work on the lest expensive part when removing metal.". (i.e.; replacement of a dovetailed sight: remove metal from the sight, not the barrel's dovetail). In the case of BP revolvers, the cost of a front sight is low compared to the cost of a hammer, cam, roller and pin. With that said, if one is aware of their skill level in working on weapons, and goes slowly in the removal of metal from them, they can do a good job with some standard tools. One tool that I ALWAYS caution not to use with this effort is the Dremel Tool. It can, and has, done more damage than good in all but the most prudent applications. Small hand files and such are far more forgiving in their attack on metal parts.

I recently removed a slight amount of metal in the rear sight of an ASM '51 Navy that shot left. I used Swedish needle files to "move" the rear sight to the right. Using a square file, I was able to effect the correction. In my case, this was a good thing as my eyes are not as good as they once were and the greater opening allowed me to see the sights better. A slight benefit from the operation. Further removal of metal in the hammer nose would have proven to be too much, and would create a sight picture that would have been unusable in common application.

Thoughts for the day: A front sight costs less than a hammer and it's componants. It can be fitted without too much effort. It is far easier to file it down and can be replaced if one does go too far for less. It is also much more forgiving if one is new to this work too. A mistake can, in effect, cost less and be corrected quickly with another sight up front.

In the long run, the decission on which part to adjust is up to you. If you feel your skills are more than up to this task, go to it and fix your problem. If one feels a might skiddish in removing metal form their firearm, then take it to a compentant gunsmith and have him do the task (and it he messes up, he'll eat the cost of the replacement too!)

Good luck on your effeorts,

Wade

 

[Hellgate]

Hey 45/70 Ranger,
I forgot to mention something on sight adjustment but when you commented on how a Dremel can destroy a gun it reminded me that when I corrected the high shooting 1860 Army Hartford model I own, I didn't have a Dremel so to lower the rear sight I used a BENCH GRINDER! How's THAT for the tool to destroy?!?! Fortunately it worked out. Mr Ranger is correct, the cheaper part oughta be adjusted first. But there I was, didn't know where to get a replacement front sight and that brand new grinder was winking at me. ;>)

 

[Old Fuff]

In Sam Colt's day the first thing a final assembler did with lockwork was to put in a hammer and then match it to a trigger (they had them in different lengths) so that it would fall into the full-cock notch at the same time the back of the hammer hit the backstrap. Thus the backstrap worked as a hammer stop. It also insured that the hammer would rotate as far as possible and in effect lower the position of the hammer nose and rear sight from where it would be if the rotation, on an arc, was stopped before the hammer fully rotated - which would cause the revolver to shoot slightly lower.

Today, many reproductions (maybe most) are set up so the hammer is short of full rotation, and the "stop" is when the bolt locks into the cylinder notch, which causes battered notches and hand/ratchet teeth, while it positions the hammer nose/rear sight higher. All of this is bad news.

Dixie Gun works (www.dixiegunworks.com) used to have an extra-long trigger for Colt 1851, 1860, and 1861 models, as well as the SAA that allowed for individual fitting. Maybe they still do.

 

[Lunie]

SAA did what I do if a Colt Navy or Army shoots high: grind down the tip of the hammer and cut the notch deeper. In effect, you are lowering the rear sight which is easier than raising the front. There is a limit to how much you can take off depending on the clearance of the hammer over the back of the barrel. Sometimes the sight picture is such that there is no lower you can go without losing the front sight due to the back of the barrel showing. Otherwise you need to take out the front sight and insert (I use JB Weld or epoxy glue) a taller blade in the front sight notch.
Let me see if I can get the sight correction formula right:
Correction on the target is to distance to the target as correction of the sight (X) is to sight radius. All units in inches.
12 inches high is to 900 inches (25 yds in inches) at the target as X is to the sight radius. If your gun has a 12" sight radius (front to rear sight) then the formula is: 12/900=X/12 solve for X which is 144/900=.16" to take off the rear sight or raise the front to make it on zero at 25 yards. I will not be offended if someone tells me I'm full of it.

Hellgate, I thought I would add an illustration of what you were talking about for changing PoI.

 

[SAA]

Be aware that the current Pietta hammers are very hard. I pretty much ruined my file doing the work. If I were to do it again I'd use a small grinder and finish with a stone.

 

[rcflint]

I added a taller front sight.