Uberti OLs Army .44 cal. dimension help

[Tuckerp229]

I am currently experiencing an early locked bolt immediately after the secound click while pulling the hammer back. This results in a lot of bolt drag and some chattering of the bolt against the soft cylinder wall.
I measured the hammer cam from the side face of the hammer to the highest point on the cam and found it to be .043 thick while VTI's new ones on the shelf measure .054 thick. A gunsmith told me there is no trustworthy factory measurement but since I am having this premature bolt lock up and my hammer cam seems short, (no wear is present), I am asking if when some of you are cleaning your Uberti Old Armys, to take a measurement, (outside of hammer to outside of cam point then just the hammer thickness and subtract the smaller from the larger.
My point is to attempt determine is my hammer cam was made incorrectly.

Thanks a bunch.

 

[rcflint]

The cam probably varies from hammer to hammer. Check the wing of the bolt for wear. Also check to see whether Uberti put a proper bevel on the top edge of the bolt where it rides the cam return ramp, it should have a small chamfer there to ease it onto the cam's return ramp, and most Ubertis don't have it. It will cause drag on the hammer as it moves forward to hit the cap, and as it has more pressure, may stress the wing a bit and weaken the spring pressure against the hammer.

If you take a screwdriver blade, or other thin tool, and slightly bend the bolt's wing sideways toward the hammer's cam, you will increase the pressure and the bolt will drop later. (Don't pry the wing on the other side, just the one that faces the hammer).The wings should be just over parallel, not less than parallel, but don't overdo it.

Doing that to a real Colt SAA with a hardened bolt is a good way to break it, but the Italian guns are softer and will tweak, and is the reason they eventually go early in the timing.

(Check articles on tuning a Colt Single Action. Jerry Kuhnhausen's Manual on the Colt Single Action is hard to beat, and is a must have if you have Colts or Clones).

 

[denster]

Hard to diagnose the problem from what you are relating. The second click is the bolt dropping at that point the the hammer notch in the cylinder should we just to the left of the hammer window in the frame as the max before you would call it an early drop that is a problem. Where is it on your gun? Is this a new gun or has it had a lot of use. If it has worked well before then the hammer cam is not the likely culprit.
rcflint probably has it correct as the leg on the bolt is the usual culprit and his fix may work if the bolt is dropping just a little early. More than a little it is new bolt time.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Follow rcflints suggestion of bending the bolt leg a very small amount. It sounds like the bolt leg is sliding off the hammer cam early, bending the leg out well increase this tension and delay the bolt drop. This is not uncommon on replica revolvers.

It doesn't take much, moving the leg .010 makes a difference.

 

[Tuckerp229]

The cam probably varies from hammer to hammer. Check the wing of the bolt for wear. Also check to see whether Uberti put a proper bevel on the top edge of the bolt where it rides the cam return ramp, it should have a small chamfer there to ease it onto the cam's return ramp, and most Ubertis don't have it. It will cause drag on the hammer as it moves forward to hit the cap, and as it has more pressure, may stress the wing a bit and weaken the spring pressure against the hammer.

Great advise which you well knew, however, I wound up speaking with VTI who offered the phone number to there most used gunsmith.

As for the usage, frankly it has been shot some 300 hundred times but there is no denying the wear cut through tthe bolt wing. I beleive the hammer cam being hardened makes fast work...too fast work of cutting this valley into to the comparatively soft bolt wing. I don't know what the men back in the day put up with but surely they expected more than 300 or even 1,000 shots before needing much in the way of tuning or parts replacement. The gunsmith made it clear that the Italians while doing a great job in many areas could stand to improve their hardening process a bit. Truth be told I think most of their sales go to "fair weather shooters" and not the crazy among us that shoot every chance we get just to get high on the sulfur smoke. They probably get away with laxness on the hardening due to low round count by the majority of their customers.
Having said that I ordered an new bolt and will attempt the fittting of same before replacing the hammer with the shallow cam. I think I may attempt to harden the bolt a bit myself prior to final install to eek a bit of extra wear potential out of it.

 

[denster]

I would suggest that you not harden the bolt or heat it in any manner. It is made of high carbon steel and will harden nicely and the first time the cam tries to slide by the leg of the bolt will snap off. As delivered it has allready been hardened and then drawn back to a spring temper which is how it is supposed to be. If you polish the slope on the hammer cam and put a corresponding polished bevel on the top of the leg of the bolt it will last without problems for thousands of cycles.
If you don't fully understand the several nuances to fitting a new bolt have a gunsmith do it for you.

 

[rcflint]

We put more rounds thrugh our revolvers in a few months of SASS/CAS shooting than a Cowboy in the days of yore shot in his lifetime, the bores rotted out from fouling before any springs broke....

Factory Colt bolts are hard enough that they will break if you try to bend them, but then, they won't bend to the weak side either from use. Fitting a hardened bolt is a gunsmith's job. Original Colt cams are inserts which can be pressed out and replaced, Italian makers machine the cam as part of the hammer, so replacing a worn cam means getting a cam (DGW has them) and boring a press fit hole on the hammer to replace the cam. Neither the Italian bolt nor the hammer is as hard as a Colt part.

Replacing parts as they wear comes with the territory, but they are relatively cheap. Uberti or Pietta bolts cost $20.00, a real Colt or Smith Shop is $40.00 or more now (?).

The point is that a real Colt will last a lot longer, but cost a lot more to fix. The Ruger is used by many because they are built like a Tank and don't break often, and are reasonably priced. But they aren't Colts (or even clones) and don't have the mystique....

 

[denster]

Rcflint is correct. Most cowboy shooters put more rounds downrange from their guns in a year than Bill Hickock shot in his lifetime.
Parts do wear, but I have never seen a cam "wear" out in 35+ years of using single actions including the rerpros. I've seen them ruined by poor gunsmithing attempts but never worn out. With the Colts replacing the cam by a gunsmith is the answer. With the repros buying a new hammer is far less than a hour of a good gunsmiths time.
Colt bolts are not delivered hard and if the leg breaks when bent it was defective. They are tempered after hardening as are the Italian bolts. The degree the cam has to flex the bolt has more to do with longevity than anything this is the reason for putting a polished bevel on the top of the bolt leg. The cam is always going to be harder than the bolt and can wear it if there is a rough surface on the face of the cam. This is the reason for polishing it.
Fitting a bolt is not hard if you understand what you are doing. If you do not it is best to leave it to someone who does.

 

[Bluehawk]

I recently bought a Pietta parts kit for my 1858 Remington from Cabelas that included the main spring, hand, bolt/trigger spring, bolt, trigger and HAMMER for all of $24.99...why would a Pietta Colt bolt cost $20??

 

[arcticap]

The price for a Euroarms Colt cylinder lock is $15, their Rogers & Spencer bolt is $9, and for their Remington bolt is $7.50, all without shipping included.
Maybe it's a more complicated part to manufacture.

http://winchestersutler.com/Part.html

 

[denster]

It's really because someones profit margin dictates they charge that much. You can buy the same parts kit for the Colt from Cabela's for $26.95.

 

[Tuckerp229]

I would suggest that you not harden the bolt or heat it in any manner. It is made of high carbon steel and will harden nicely and the first time the cam tries to slide by the leg of the bolt will snap off. As delivered it has allready been hardened and then drawn back to a spring temper which is how it is supposed to be. If you polish the slope on the hammer cam and put a corresponding polished bevel on the top of the leg of the bolt it will last without problems for thousands of cycles.
If you don't fully understand the several nuances to fitting a new bolt have a gunsmith do it for you.

Wow, this and the other replies...a wealth of knowledge.

I really wish to learn how to do this level of gunsmithing. I have been involved with mechanical devices all my life. It appears to me that this level of gunsmithing is attainable for me....though it might cost me an extra bolt or two. There is just something fine about working on my guns that makes them feel more like "my guns". I also learn how things work and begin to understand the "why's" behind the rules such as "never lower the hammer from half cock -always full cock and then lower. The black powder, single actions seem relatively straightforward and certainly affordable. In other words if I was so lame that I ruined the gun entirely while learning it would be like ruining a 1,000 dollar SW 1911 or some such gun.

Since you all have obvious experience, I was perusing the gunsmithing stone sections in various web company catalogs. I see there are Arkansas stones and "man made" ceramic stones. The latter claim lube free honing, no glazing of the grit and finer tolerance control of their manufactured stones.
What say you? BS or real? Both types cost about the same.

Replacing parts as they wear comes with the territory, but they are relatively cheap. Uberti or Pietta bolts cost $20.00, a real Colt or Smith Shop is $40.00 or more now (?).

Yea and add $9.95 for the slowest form of shipping. Geeze, they could have put the bolt in an envelope or something for under two bucks.

 

[denster]

The solution is simple just order the spare parts kit from Cabela's. All of the parts will work in the Uberti. Interesting that the Pietta hammer is a better fit in the Uberti frame than the Uberti hammer. The bolt and the trigger will require that you open the pin hole up by .016. Other than that you just have to fit them as you would if you ordered Uberti parts.
As to the stones. I have both sets, both are good, I prefer the arkansas.
Othe than that you will need a good set of needle files. I prefer Nicholson. A set of diamond needle files. The Harbor Freight set works as good as any for what you will use them for. A good screwdriver set. Interesting that Wal-Mart sells a set under the Winchester name for $8.95 that is pretty darn good. A small vise and you are pretty much good to go on the hobby level.
David Chicoine's book on gunsmithing guns of the old west is a good reference and AGI video on gunsmithing single actions pretty well translates to the black powder reproductions regarding fitting parts.
Understanding exactly how the parts works in relation to each other is the biggest hurdle and the progression for fitting each one. For example with a bolt you fit the width of the head to the cylinder notches first, then you check the lip in front of the bolt to make sure it allows the bolt to rise high enough, generally it does, then does the bolt return easily over the top of the cam when the hammer is down, next is the bolt pulled clear of the frame as the hammer is rotated it doesn't have to go further than just below the frame as more just stresses the bolt/trigger spring more than needed, then the release point when the cam releases the bolt and finally the bevel on top of the bolt leg to ease the passage of the cam on reset. A lot of things to consider but taken in proper sequence none are difficult to address.

 

[Tuckerp229]

denster,

Thanks for tip on Cabelas. Oh where were you before I ordered from VTI? I paid 20.00 plus 9.95 ship[ping for just the bolt. They want 46.00 for a new hammer.
I am looking at the picture and the hammer, trigger and the cam look really different from my Uberti 1860 Army. My gun, the Uberti 1860 is listed. I see no other application chart with alternate choices.

The bolt wings are at about a 90 degree angle on the picture in Cabelas while my in hand bolt wings are at about a 45 degree angle.

 

[denster]

You are looking at the picture for the 1858 Remington they use the same picture for both parts sets. Isn't that great? If you look under quantity box to the right it should say "Navy Parts" If it does you are good to go to get the Colt Parts. Easiest way to get there is type in 1851 parts in the search box. The 1851 parts also fit the 1860 Army and 1861 Navy. I see Cabela's has hiked the price of the Remington parts kit to almost $50 bet the Colt parts follow shortly. I'm going to order a few sets to be on the safe side.

 

[rcflint]

Cabela's parts kits are for Pietta revolvers, so even if you get the one for your model, the Pietta parts don't mate up with Ubertis without a bit of work, and even then not well. (especially the Remington).

 

[rcflint]

Bluehawk, Pietta parts prices recenty had a dramatic sudden increase, for instance, a Remington cylinder which 6 months ago was $35 is now $85. Many parts which were 1/3 or 1/2 the cost of Uberti parts are now as much or more.

When some outfits like Cabelas run out of the inventory they bought at the previous prices and restock, be prepared for a shock. If you need parts now for spares, and can find the old prices somewhere, buy it up now.

 

[denster]

The Colt parts kits from Cabela's are still at $29, I ordered 10 sets earlier today. As I said the Remington parts kits have gone to $49. Still a bargain considering others prices. I don't know how well the Pietta Remington parts kits translates to Uberti as I havent had to recently change out any Uberti Remington parts. With the Colt kits the hammer is a drop in replacement no changes necessary it is not finished as pretty as the Uberti but it does fit the Uberti frame better. The mainspring and bolt/trigger spring are drop ins. The trigger and bolt will need the hole for the pin drilled out .016 larger, then the trigger is a drop in the bolt will need fitted but less than a new Uberti bolt needs. The hand needs no more fitting than a replacemen Uberti, it does need a little more smoothing to make it as nice. This is not rocket science folks the dimensions of the parts are essentially the same with the exceptions of the holes I mentioned and the current quality of parts is very very good. I'd get some while they are cheap it may not last long.

 

[denster]

For what it is worth Cabela's still lists all of the cylinders for Colts and Remmies at 49.95. Others have significantly raised their prices as rcflint stated. They are shown in stock so if you need them I'd get them now.

 

[Tuckerp229]

Dang. If I wasn't so tight on cash right now.

 

[Tuckerp229]

Well, I received the new bolt. After stoning to fit the notches in the cylinder she locks up nice and tight. Unfortunately my premature bolt drop-for final lock up is still too quick. She starts dragging before the pre-notch bevel and appears to be riding to the side of this bevel pretty hard. Starting to chatter cut a bit into each pre-notch area.

 

[denster]

Did you do any work to the leg of the bolt that goes over the hammer cam? If not then you may have a cam problem, any way you can post a pic of the hammer cam? Unfortunately Uberti tries to deliver their parts as close to drop in as possible which doesn't leave much room for fitting for wear. Although it is unusual for a cam to wear much if it were working properly before it should work OK now. The bolt is the softer part and takes the wear. In any case your bolt should not be gouging the cylinder that is the result of a too heavy trigger bolt spring. Both Uberti and Pietta have gone to a much lighter spring I'm not sure just when they changed. You can mitigate the problem by loosening the trigger/bolt spring screw it only needs to be tight enough that the bolt still has some tension in the full up position.

 

[denster]

On your original question of cam thickness that has little to do with anything, the diameter of the cam is the important part. Reduce the diameter or lower the tip of the bolt leg and the bolt will drop earlier. The photo shows the parts just at the point that if you rotated the hammer just a .001 of an inch the bolt will drop.

 

[denster]

One more consideration. Uberti sometimes delivers their bolts with a pretty substantial bevel all to way out to the tip of the leg. That heavy trigger/bolt spring combined with the bevel may be forcing the leg of the bolt to spring in a tad and drop the bolt early. Definetly try backing off the pressure and see if it helps.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Back the bolt /trigger spring screw off a half turn and try it, keep trying a half turn at a time and see if it starts dropping at the correct point. Have you spread the leg of the bolt? That normally well correct a early bolt drop for me.