Umm (gulp) what is a Black diamond?

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Wheeler44

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Hey shotgun Gurus, I was handling an old shotgun today. A relative wants to trade me a .22 for it. It is a Win. mod.97 made around 1910 or so. It has an "E" prefix on the serial number 508XXX. The stock looks diferent than most of the pics I can find of other model 97s. It has what I call a carbine stock, as in no pistol grip just straight back from reciever to toe. It has some checkering on it but it is worn and looks like our (my relative and mine) common ancestor may have checkered it ( he was into that sort of thing) it also has a small black diamond inset on either side of the grip part of the stock. Is this a "black diamond" and if so what is the signifigance of that? Any help is appreciated.

Wheeler44
 
If it was a Black Diamond, they were a trap model and winchester would have checkered the stock because it was a deluxe model. They were hand checkered so the do not look quite as neat as machine cut. It should have a 32 or 30" barrel.
 
The Black Diamond was a high end trap model with extra fit and finish. Pretty wood, and a little more care taken as to trigger and smoothness.

Unless that 22 is an Anschutz in perfect shape or similar,and the 97 is beat to death, make the trade.....
 
Unless that 22 is an Anschutz in perfect shape or similar,and the 97 is beat to death, make the trade.....
The .22 in question will be a new in the box 10/22 with extra 25 rd. mag.
and a little more care taken as to trigger and smoothness.
the action on this specimen is stiff. Partly from spending the last 50 or so years in storage (I could hardly work the action until I lubed it and worked it repeatedly) even after that it is no where near as smoth as my sons model 12 or the Ithaca 37 I used to own. What can I do to smooth it out some more?

Wheeler44
 
I'd have a decent smith take it apart and clean/lube it. That should slick things up.

Like other JMB designs, there's about 80 internal parts. Like other JMB designs, it'll work forever.

The 97 was one of the first pumpguns and still one of the best.

I like 10-22s, but they are common and cheap. DO the swap.....
 
Thanks Dave and others. I guess I should throw in an extra magazine and a brick of ammo. I also must add; I will have to but the 10-22, probably from Wal-mart or more likely Bi-Mart. I've never owned a 10-22.
 
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A lot depends on condition and location, but the last Black Diamond 97 I saw advertised had an asking price of a couple grand. It was listed as Like New.

Enjoy....
 
The Black Diamond 97 is a much coveted gun (by me). In my tactical collection I have several 97 varients including trench and riot guns. They all tend to be a little stiff for the first 100 years or so.
 
As scarce as the '97 is getting. the Cowboy Action shooters are always looking for those original guns. I would see if it has value to these people!
 
The '97 that I am discussing was my Great-Grandfathers. It was handed down through another branch of the family tree. Great Grampa Ben was the patriarch of shooters in our family.

The family member that ended up with it didn't see the value in it. He would rather have a 10-22. I have no problem purchasing him one. I will even get him a couple of extra hi-cap mags(he wants these) and a couple bricks of ammo.
I have been needing a good shotgun for quite some time. I sold the single shot bolt action .410 that I have been using today to help pay for the 10-22.

I couldn't put a price on the "sentimental" value of that old gun. The blue is mostly worn off, the beautiful walnut stock has dings and some finish issues. The bore is shiny and bright.

I know that my Great-Grampa wore off some of that blue and put in some of the dings, as did my Grandpa and his brothers. I know that my Mother hunted with it until she graduated 8th grade when she was given a Model 12 in 16 ga. She quite possibly was the last person to shoot it, as she gave it to her Sister to hand down.

I have heard of "cowboy action" shooters cutting down the barrels of these old guns. I could not stand the thought of Great-Gramps spinning in his grave because someone cut the barrel off of his trap gun ( I am sure that is why he bought that particular model). So I will keep it to use and pass down to my son.


But thanks for the consideration.

Wheeler44
 
The "E" model which you have was the last model of the 97. It has improvements lacking on the C and D models. This places it somewhat later than 1910 I believe, but I'm not sure. But that doesn't matter. The 97 "E" remained in production into the 1950's.

The bluing on the 97 has always been unreasonably delicate. I wore the finish off of a 97 that I bought in the early 50's in just a couple of years of frequent use. If you see one with good bluing then it is an unused original that belongs in a collection and should not be shot or else it is a re-blue.

I have three 97's, including one with the English or straight carbine type stock. (Which is fairly rare on a 97 btw.) I have used them for everything for sixty years. None of mine have ever been to a gunsmith. They are great guns. Keep yours and cherish it. If you want to sell it, talk to me.

This is important. If you intend to use the gun, you must check it to ensure that it is chambered for 2 3/4. I know modern factory ammo will chamber in the gun, but modern ammo uses a star crimp rather than the shorter old fashioned roll crimp. Consequently, there may not be room in the chamber for the modern ammo to open without some constriction in the barrel. This leads to high pressures. A gunsmith can lengthen the chamber at very little cost. Finally, if your gun is indeed a 1910 model, I would restrict myself to the lower pressure, low brass ammunition. After all, the old girl is almost a hundred years old.
 
In my tactical collection I have several 97 varients including trench and riot guns. They all tend to be a little stiff for the first 100 years or so.

Surely you mean the first 10 years? :uhoh:
 
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