Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
There's a fair amount of interest in these, and in an effort to cut down on my typing things over and over and over, here's a base thread for the Archives.
And, I'm no expert on these, but I'm happy to pass on what I know....
J M Browning was to firearms design what Michaelangelo was to chapel ceilings, but he was human.
When Winchester brought out a pump shotgun JMB designed as the 93 Winchester in 1893, some glitches crept out of the bushes. So, some redesign and reworking, the 97 Winchester was born in 1897, of course. Some 93 and 97 parts interchange, but not all.
Shotgunners of the time had few repeaters. Winchester's old lever action shotguns were cranky and problem ridden, Christian Spencer's company had brought out another one with less than reliable functioning, and Marlin's pump had a tendency to blow up.
The 93 and 97 were among the first shotguns built for smokeless powders, and being JMB designs, were overbuilt to a strength well beyond any possible need.
Most shotgunners got along with two shots at most until the 97 appeared.
All of a sudden, firepower was at hand.The 6 round magazine gave market gunners and waterfowlers in general chances to waste more ammo as well as reduce the waterfowl population severely. The Conservation movement in part evolved because of the efficiency of the 97 at harvesting trainloads of ducks, geese, swans and cranes.
Not just market gunners and game hogs liked the 97.
John Philip Sousa owned one, a high grade with engraving and pretty wood made to his measure.
So did Annie Oakley, who used it in Wild West shows, along with other shotguns.
T Roosevelt had a couple, So did Tom Mix.
Writer Jack London had one he used regularly on his sailboat.
Winchester brought out trap versions, field versions, presentation guns,skeet versions, takedowns, martial and law enforcement versions.The best engravers in the US used the flat receiver surfaces as canvas for their finest work. It was available from the factory with either a straight or half pistol grip, could be had in the TD version with a hardcase similar to those of today, and custom stocks could be made to measure for a few dollars more.
As fast as the hunters grabbed onto the 97, so did those folks who defended their own as well as other folks' lives. Both the Border Patrol and Texas Rangers appreciated the utility of a shotgun that held 7 rounds without reloading and had them early. Wells Fargo armed their railroad guards with them also. Prisons and Police depts followed suit, and the Army had them on the Mexican Punitive Expedition in 1916.
The short barreled versions were the first "Serious" shotguns capable of multiple shots and a high rate of fire. The "Fan Fire" feature meant lots of buck could be launched quickly. The awesome reliability and durability of the model 97 became legend even before WWI.
And then, Pershing went to France with the American forces. Model 97s went with them, and things happened.
Backtracking a bit, let's look at the typical WWI military rifle. It shot one projectile at a time, had a maximum usable range of maybe 600 yards, and could shot 5 times or so before reloading. The Lee Enfield held ten.
On the other hand, ranges in the Hell of trench warfare ran close to very close, and precision fire was less crucial than the ability to neutralize hostiles at rock throwing range before they neutralized us.
IIRC, one US unit not long in the meatgrinder that was the front lines had 600 Model 97s and lots of buckshot. When veteran German forces charged them, the Germans were not decimated, they were destroyed.
The Germans tried to get the shotguns banned as inhumane under the Hague Convention. They cavilled not at poison gas, mines, sawtooth bayonets, massed machine guns, flamethrowers, or grenades, but they drew the line at the destruction massed fire from the 97s wreaked. Think about that for a moment....
600 German infantrymen armed with 98 Mausers could fire five times each for a total of 3000 projectiles capable of causing death or a wound before the infantrymen had to reload.
600 US troops armed with the 97s could fire 00 buck loads 7 times each with each shell holding 9 projectiles capable of causing death or a wound before the Yanks had to reload. Do the math...
The effect was so impressive that it caused a certain Captain, later Colonel, Thompson to evaluate what would work best in close range warfare, leading to the development of the Thompson Submachine gun.
The German learned from it as well and developed various weaponry for short range work, leading to the concept of the assault rifle.
Back to the 97. It stayed in military, police and correctional inventories until very recently. The 97 was removed from production around 1957, victim of high production costs and competition from newer designs like the 870.
Enough of history, why would anyone be interested in an obsolete shotgun dead for a half century?
Because they are one of the best pump guns ever made, and also one of the best production shotguns ever made to boot.
Because the CAS folks treasure them almost as much as the military re-enactors and collectors do.
Because there's still lots of them out there, oft quite capable of being used here and now. And they're too much gun to just leave sitting there. 97s close with a solid Kachunk like the breech block of a 155 MM locking shut. The frame is about the same depth as that of the Superposed, and the shooter's hands fall close to a straight line,making this one of the better pointers among our shotguns. Most shotgunners do well with the 97.
Now the downside of discovering your Great Grandfather's 97 in the attic....
Many fall under The Curse of the Short Chamber Demon, being chambered for the shell variously called the 2 1/2", 2 5/8", and 2 9/16" load. About one of three are so burdened.
Others have been shot a lot(Remember those market gunners?) and parts are worn. SOME 97s can be jarred off the half cock notch easily, and ALL should be checked out by a qualified smith before use.
The Fan Fire thing is highly prized by some, but has contributed to many a miss and many a ND over the decades.
And, as the bolt comes back over the firing hand, many an incision has come from a high wrist. This prob IS self correcting, but I'm trying to save you from a scar.
Short chambers can be altered to 2 3/4" by a decent smith for a reasonable amount of money. I'd do this on a field grade 97 with honorable wear in a heartbeat. On a high grade 97 or one in pristine condition, I'd buy or make 2 1/2" loads. MEC makes a kit to convert their loaders for this, and Gamebore, Kent, etc, market lower pressure, short ammo for these and old doubles.
I wouldn't use short magnums, non toxics, or turkey loads in these, but most will handle heavy field loads with aplomb. Light target loads are just the ticket for fun.
Some are very tightly choked. With modern ammo, a barrel marked Modified may give Full choke patterns. Full choked barrels run like turkey chokes, a fact not lost on the card shooters.
Some models, like the US marked ones pack so much collector value that forgeries are common. Caveat Emptor.
And, I'm no expert on these, but I'm happy to pass on what I know....
J M Browning was to firearms design what Michaelangelo was to chapel ceilings, but he was human.
When Winchester brought out a pump shotgun JMB designed as the 93 Winchester in 1893, some glitches crept out of the bushes. So, some redesign and reworking, the 97 Winchester was born in 1897, of course. Some 93 and 97 parts interchange, but not all.
Shotgunners of the time had few repeaters. Winchester's old lever action shotguns were cranky and problem ridden, Christian Spencer's company had brought out another one with less than reliable functioning, and Marlin's pump had a tendency to blow up.
The 93 and 97 were among the first shotguns built for smokeless powders, and being JMB designs, were overbuilt to a strength well beyond any possible need.
Most shotgunners got along with two shots at most until the 97 appeared.
All of a sudden, firepower was at hand.The 6 round magazine gave market gunners and waterfowlers in general chances to waste more ammo as well as reduce the waterfowl population severely. The Conservation movement in part evolved because of the efficiency of the 97 at harvesting trainloads of ducks, geese, swans and cranes.
Not just market gunners and game hogs liked the 97.
John Philip Sousa owned one, a high grade with engraving and pretty wood made to his measure.
So did Annie Oakley, who used it in Wild West shows, along with other shotguns.
T Roosevelt had a couple, So did Tom Mix.
Writer Jack London had one he used regularly on his sailboat.
Winchester brought out trap versions, field versions, presentation guns,skeet versions, takedowns, martial and law enforcement versions.The best engravers in the US used the flat receiver surfaces as canvas for their finest work. It was available from the factory with either a straight or half pistol grip, could be had in the TD version with a hardcase similar to those of today, and custom stocks could be made to measure for a few dollars more.
As fast as the hunters grabbed onto the 97, so did those folks who defended their own as well as other folks' lives. Both the Border Patrol and Texas Rangers appreciated the utility of a shotgun that held 7 rounds without reloading and had them early. Wells Fargo armed their railroad guards with them also. Prisons and Police depts followed suit, and the Army had them on the Mexican Punitive Expedition in 1916.
The short barreled versions were the first "Serious" shotguns capable of multiple shots and a high rate of fire. The "Fan Fire" feature meant lots of buck could be launched quickly. The awesome reliability and durability of the model 97 became legend even before WWI.
And then, Pershing went to France with the American forces. Model 97s went with them, and things happened.
Backtracking a bit, let's look at the typical WWI military rifle. It shot one projectile at a time, had a maximum usable range of maybe 600 yards, and could shot 5 times or so before reloading. The Lee Enfield held ten.
On the other hand, ranges in the Hell of trench warfare ran close to very close, and precision fire was less crucial than the ability to neutralize hostiles at rock throwing range before they neutralized us.
IIRC, one US unit not long in the meatgrinder that was the front lines had 600 Model 97s and lots of buckshot. When veteran German forces charged them, the Germans were not decimated, they were destroyed.
The Germans tried to get the shotguns banned as inhumane under the Hague Convention. They cavilled not at poison gas, mines, sawtooth bayonets, massed machine guns, flamethrowers, or grenades, but they drew the line at the destruction massed fire from the 97s wreaked. Think about that for a moment....
600 German infantrymen armed with 98 Mausers could fire five times each for a total of 3000 projectiles capable of causing death or a wound before the infantrymen had to reload.
600 US troops armed with the 97s could fire 00 buck loads 7 times each with each shell holding 9 projectiles capable of causing death or a wound before the Yanks had to reload. Do the math...
The effect was so impressive that it caused a certain Captain, later Colonel, Thompson to evaluate what would work best in close range warfare, leading to the development of the Thompson Submachine gun.
The German learned from it as well and developed various weaponry for short range work, leading to the concept of the assault rifle.
Back to the 97. It stayed in military, police and correctional inventories until very recently. The 97 was removed from production around 1957, victim of high production costs and competition from newer designs like the 870.
Enough of history, why would anyone be interested in an obsolete shotgun dead for a half century?
Because they are one of the best pump guns ever made, and also one of the best production shotguns ever made to boot.
Because the CAS folks treasure them almost as much as the military re-enactors and collectors do.
Because there's still lots of them out there, oft quite capable of being used here and now. And they're too much gun to just leave sitting there. 97s close with a solid Kachunk like the breech block of a 155 MM locking shut. The frame is about the same depth as that of the Superposed, and the shooter's hands fall close to a straight line,making this one of the better pointers among our shotguns. Most shotgunners do well with the 97.
Now the downside of discovering your Great Grandfather's 97 in the attic....
Many fall under The Curse of the Short Chamber Demon, being chambered for the shell variously called the 2 1/2", 2 5/8", and 2 9/16" load. About one of three are so burdened.
Others have been shot a lot(Remember those market gunners?) and parts are worn. SOME 97s can be jarred off the half cock notch easily, and ALL should be checked out by a qualified smith before use.
The Fan Fire thing is highly prized by some, but has contributed to many a miss and many a ND over the decades.
And, as the bolt comes back over the firing hand, many an incision has come from a high wrist. This prob IS self correcting, but I'm trying to save you from a scar.
Short chambers can be altered to 2 3/4" by a decent smith for a reasonable amount of money. I'd do this on a field grade 97 with honorable wear in a heartbeat. On a high grade 97 or one in pristine condition, I'd buy or make 2 1/2" loads. MEC makes a kit to convert their loaders for this, and Gamebore, Kent, etc, market lower pressure, short ammo for these and old doubles.
I wouldn't use short magnums, non toxics, or turkey loads in these, but most will handle heavy field loads with aplomb. Light target loads are just the ticket for fun.
Some are very tightly choked. With modern ammo, a barrel marked Modified may give Full choke patterns. Full choked barrels run like turkey chokes, a fact not lost on the card shooters.
Some models, like the US marked ones pack so much collector value that forgeries are common. Caveat Emptor.
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. I was looking at several of these yesterday at the harrisburg pa show, and I tried telling myself i didnt need one. Guess I better start saving up and counting up the coin jar. 