Uncannelured 158 gr .357 FMJ bullets for heavy .357 loads?

[John C]

I recently purchased a large amount of Armscor 158 grain .357 FMJ bullets from another reloader. I plan to work up to book max loads in .357 mag using 2400 and 300-MP. The issue is that these bullets don't have a cannelure in which to crimp the case mouth, like I'm used to doing for .357 rounds. What's the best way to crimp these rounds? Or should I stay away from full-house loads that may pull the bullet?

Looking at a picture of loaded Armscor ammo, it doesn't appear that they crimp the case mouths of their loaded ammo.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/14...-magnum-158-grain-full-metal-jacket-box-of-50

I'm using these in .357 mag revolvers only, not in a tube magazine levergun.

Thanks

 

[stubbicatt]

Perhaps neck tension will retain them?

Used to be Lee advertised that their FCD would put a crimp in a non canneleured bullet. Maybe you can try that?

 

[Walkalong]

The ones in the pic appear to have excellent neck tension.

That is the FCD for rifle, not pistol.

Might try no expanding, just seat bullets after sizing only.

 

[ku4hx]

If the bullets stay put when the gun is fired, you're likely ok. If it were me, I'd note which cases held the bullet firmly and which, if any, did not. The luck of the draw generally tends to say not all cases will hold an uncrimped bullet equally tight. I have successfully applied a light to moderate crimp on bullets with no cannelure, but I don't do that as a general rule.

You might consider these bullets as being better suited to more moderate loads and stresses.

You can't really judge by pictures of the factory rounds. Those cases are (should be) unfired and therefore never subjected to pressure that may thin the case walls (or otherwise "work-weaken" them) at the mouth over time as multiple loadings take place. And, generally, resizing a fired case doesn't return it to dimensions that perfectly match factory unfired.

 

[sellersm]

I tend to use a taper crimp, or the Redding Profile crimp when loading bullets with no cannelure in 357 Magnum.

 

[buck460XVR]

Cheap FMJ bullets in .357 are generally range/plinking fodder and do not require max loads to perform. That is how I would use them, with moderate velocities at the range. Armscor show a muzzle velocity of 1545fps with it's loaded ammo....I doubt you'd ever see that from a revolver, but like Walkalong says, the bullets in the pic look to have very good neck tension.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

That picture also looks like they may have roll crimped over the curve of the bullet instead of into the side. They look like they are seated pretty deep.

Or maybe it's just my eyes.

That would also work with a roll crimp die if you can work up your own load data for them. We always got away with it with Keith style SWC lead bullets that were to long for our P&R Smiths.

Seat them deep and crimp over the front rifling band of the bullet.

Reduce your loads with these.

 

[John C]

Thank you, gentlemen, for your replies. It looks like I have some experimenting to do.

 

[tomingreeneco]

A Lee crimping die will work perfect on these.

 

[joneb]

I have two expander/flare stems for rcbs carbide die I turned one down to increase neck tension for plated bullets. For non-cannelured plated I chamfered the inside of the case mouth after trimming the brass and used a taper crimp.
I would use thick brass, and avoid R-P brass as it is thinner than most.

 

[bluetopper]

I load these very same bullets in a 357 Maximum Contender with a 13" custom barrel and have chrono'd them at over 2,000 fps with excellent accuracy at 100 yds. These have a concave shaped base that I think helps accuracy.

 

[gamestalker]

Based on past experience with full house magnum loads, I wouldn't even consider using bullets like that with magnum powders.

GS

 

[John C]

Game stalker, can you please elaborate? Is the issue pulling bullets? Maybe that's why the guy sold them to me to begin with.

My thought is to load up 20 or so test rounds at 13.5 gr of 2400, then 14.0, then 14.5. Then test them with 2 in the cylinder, measuring the second cartridge after the first shot. If that works, try three, measuring the COAL of the third round after 2 shots, etc. hopefully, the bullet pull can be contained for a full 6 shots. If not, I'll probably burn them up in my Contender.

 

[bluetopper]

Based on passed experience with full house magnum loads of these very same bullets, I wouldn't have any reservations whatsoever with loading these bullets in any modern day firearm.

See my post #11 above.

 

[joneb]

Is the issue pulling bullets?

This is a common problem with heavy recoiling revolver loads. I try to keep it to a minimum, not just to risk locking up the gun but to keep the COL variance from effecting pressure and accuracy.

 

[John C]

I wanted to follow up with the results of my testing.

I loaded up 20 rounds each of 13.5, 14.0, and 14.5 gr of 2400 behind Armscor uncannelured .357 FMJ bullets in previously fired .357 cases. I did NOT crimp the case in any manner. However, the bullets took some effort to seat in my Dillon 550 press, indicating a very tight fit.

The process was to measure the COAL of a round with a caliper, and place it in the cylinder. I then placed another round in the chamber to the left of the measured round. I fired the unmeasured round, then ejected the unfired measured round and remeasured it, noting any bullet pull. If the bullet pull was negligible, I repeated the process, but fired 2 rounds, measuring the third; then firing 3 rounds, measuring the fourth; until I fired 5 rounds, measuring the 6th round.

At 13.5 gr of 2400, after 5 rounds fired, the 6th bullet showed 0.0025 inches of bullet pull.

At 14.0 gr of 2400, after 5 rounds fired, the 6th bullet showed 0.0035 inches of bullet pull.

At 14.5 gr of 2400, after 4 rounds fired, the 5th bullet showed .0065 inches of bullet pull. I felt this was significant and did not want to test further.

One factor that might have influenced the results is that I was shooting these in a 6 inch GP100 with a Weig-a-tinny rail and Ultradot Matchdot on top of it. This is a heavy gun to begin with, and the additional rail and optics probably added 7 or more ounces to the weight. Recoil, even with the stout loads, was muted, likely reducing bullet pull compared to a lighter weight revolvers.

I will order a taper crimp die for .357 and begin crimping them. I will retry the test at 14.5 gr of 2400, but I feel confident that at 13.5 gr and 14.0 gr and a taper crimp, bullet pull will not affect function.

Thanks, everyone, for your input.

 

[ku4hx]

Based on past experience with full house magnum loads, I wouldn't even consider using bullets like that with magnum powders.

GS

Agree completely. If it can't be properly roll crimped, and rather heavily at that, it's not suitable for magnum level performance in my guns. I'm just funny that way and really can't see myself fretting over 65 ten thousands of an inch.

Why struggle with this issue at all? Get bullets that are known to work well at magnum power levels and move on. You won't lose anything as these slick-sided pellets will work just fine in .38 Special.

 

[buck460XVR]

Based on passed experience with full house magnum loads of these very same bullets, I wouldn't have any reservations whatsoever with loading these bullets in any modern day firearm.

See my post #11 above.

Big difference between a single shot contender tho, and a 6 shot revolver. Your experience with the first gives no credibility to your opinion on the second. One never has to be concerned with bullets jumping crimp with a single shot. Only bullet that jumps crimp there is the one that's being shot.

Whole reason behind cannelures on revolver bullets is to help prevent bullet jump. Heavier the load and the lighter the gun, the better chance for the bullets in the 5th or 6th chamber to jump. If cannelures were not necessary, manufacturers would not go thru the extra step and expense to put them on, nor would manuals tell us to put a heavy roll crimp into the center of them.

 

[John C]

Agree completely. If it can't be properly roll crimped, and rather heavily at that, it's not suitable for magnum level performance in my guns. I'm just funny that way and really can't see myself fretting over 65 ten thousands of an inch.

Why struggle with this issue at all? Get bullets that are known to work well at magnum power levels and move on. You won't lose anything as these slick-sided pellets will work just fine in .38 Special.

You're completely right. I guess I just wanted too see what was on the other the other side of the mountain. Sometimes, you just gotta know.

 

[Bula]

Maybe just a moderate amount of roll crimp would work. Jacketed pills have a pretty substantial amount of material around the lead core. Just don't kill it and tear the jacket.

 

[Buck13]

Or maybe it's just my eyes.

Nope. I concur. The picture looks like they're crimped (roll, taper, I don't know) over the beginning of the ogive.

John C, what OAL are you using? If memory serves, 14.5 gr of 2400 is max for a 158 grain bullet, so deep seating a long bullet might be a bit much. If you are using a COAL spec for a SWC, a round nose is likely longer. Worth looking up the bullet lengths, anyway.

 

[John C]

Buck;

Thanks for asking. According to my Lyman 49 manual, 14.9 gr is the current max for 2400, and it specifies a COAL of 1.590 inches. The Alliant website shows a max of 14.8. My reloads ended up at 1.591 inches, +/- 0.001. I wanted to stay under absolute book max, since I knew I was pushing it with uncrimped loads.

Bula;

Thank you. I have a taper crimp die en route as we speak. I intend to put a firm taper crimp on these and retest.

I will also test some factory loads and see how much they pull. I'd like to come up with a load that will work with these bullets, whatever level that ends up being. A taper crimp will surely help.

 

[bluetopper]

I'll put up the accuracy of these "cheap" Armscor 158's against any others at 50yds on out. Distances where you can tell a difference.

 

[gamestalker]

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner John, been pretty busy.

Anyway, the inertia created by full house magnum loads will pull the bullets clean out the case mouths without a roll crimp. I've had it happen even when using a roll crimp, simply because I didn't apply a stout enough roll crimp. So IMHO, you are almost certain to experience this type of problem with those bullets if using magnum class powders.

Another issue you might also have, is without a roll crimp, those magnum powders don't have the ability to reach the necessary pressures necessary to attain a proper powder burn. So I would be as well concerned about possible squibs, especially with powders like 300MP.

GS

 

[buck460XVR]

I'll put up the accuracy of these "cheap" Armscor 158's against any others at 50yds on out. Distances where you can tell a difference.

Nobody in this thread has expressed any concerns of accuracy, only concerns about bullets jumping crimp with heavy loads in a revolver.