Unconventional techniques, stances, grips, etc...
- Thread starter B yond
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I like to draw my gun and spare mag at the same time... 
After reading that thread, I remembered watching a video about the early cowboy shooters. The first guy to start point-shooting (from the hip) was TOTALLY unconventional. Everybody else aimed their gun. At first they thought he was nuts. He started kicking everyone's butt in short order. It's good to think outside the box sometimes. I wish I could remember the guy's name.
When I compete, I use my daily carry setup. No fancy holster. No extra-heavy gun. The same rig I haul around to the grocery store and mall. Based on what I see at the competitions, I'd call that unconventional.
After reading that thread, I remembered watching a video about the early cowboy shooters. The first guy to start point-shooting (from the hip) was TOTALLY unconventional. Everybody else aimed their gun. At first they thought he was nuts. He started kicking everyone's butt in short order. It's good to think outside the box sometimes. I wish I could remember the guy's name.
When I compete, I use my daily carry setup. No fancy holster. No extra-heavy gun. The same rig I haul around to the grocery store and mall. Based on what I see at the competitions, I'd call that unconventional.
From what I hear, that's just stupid!
Seriously though; if no one thinks outside the box then no one ever discovers anything new. I've found that if I'm being creative and thinking critically about what I'm doing (and of course being safe) every once in awhile I come up with a good idea. This applies to a lot more than shooting sports.
Here's an example of something unconventional that worked for me and was a lot of fun: At one point I got a wild hair to get a pistol-grip-only shotgun. Everyone was telling me how useless they are and how it's impossible to hit anything with a PGO shotty. Well, the one I had had 2 pistol grips, and I thought about it and figured that I could hold it up to my line of sight and get a decent sight picture and if I extended my index finger on my weak hand it was parallel to the barrel so I could point at my target and get in the ballpark very quickly. I took one of the naysayers (a good friend) to the range with me and we had a skeet competition. Me with my PGO and him with his standard pump. IIRC, he lost by 1 clay.
I still have that shotty, but I ended up trading the rear pistol grip for a folding sock. Now I can't hit a dern thing with it. Stock just doesn't fit me right.
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In competition, you need to be able to draw and transfer to your weak hand, shoot strong hand or weak hand only, draw from a seated position, transition to kneeling or prone, shoot around barricades- both to the left and the right, shoot from close retention, shooting on the move, etc- so I practice all of those regularly. I also practice switching from target focus to sight focus depending on distance.
When I'd just bought my .45 I wanted to test the accuracy as objectively as possible with a few different custom loads.
People sure looked at me strangely when I brought out my shiny new pistol, slapped a picatinny bipod onto the accessory rail, went prone and started firing 5 round groups. Hey, I wanted a rest for stability and there were no benches!
It was unconventional and had probably no tactical application, but it was surprisingly fun and I found out just how well my .45 could group.
People sure looked at me strangely when I brought out my shiny new pistol, slapped a picatinny bipod onto the accessory rail, went prone and started firing 5 round groups. Hey, I wanted a rest for stability and there were no benches!
It was unconventional and had probably no tactical application, but it was surprisingly fun and I found out just how well my .45 could group.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
I've heard it said that there are no "advanced techniques," just exceptional mastery of the fundamentals.
I'm still working on the fundamentals myself.
lpl
I'm still working on the fundamentals myself.
lpl
possum
Member
i totally agree.
here are the drills that i train on a regular basis, in this list you will find several what most people consider.
these are not handgun specific, i use them for ar, ak, shotgun, and handgun. this is not all there have been more added since this list was made.
101 Drills
1) MEU-SOC AR Qualification
2) MEU-SOC Pistol Qualification
3) Bill Drill
4) El Presidente
5) Tueller Drill
6) Shooting on the Move
A) Forward
B) Backwards
C) Left to Right
D) Right to Left
E) Weaver drill Forward and backwards
F) Weaver drill right to left and left to right
G) Box drills (1 man, 2, 4 or more)
H) To and from cover
1) 2 hands
2) Strong hand
3) Weak hand
7) Lowlight drills
A) Syringe
B) Neck Index
C) FBI
D) Harris
8) Positions
A) Supine
B) Prone
C) Sitting
D) Kneeling
E) Fetal Positions
9) Behind Cover
A) High
B) Low
C) Medium
10) Dot drills
A) 21 shot drills
B) Cognative drills
C) Rythmatic shooting
D) Allen Dots
E) Shrinking Dots
F) Dot Torture drill
1) Weak hand
2) Strong hand
3) 2 hand
11) Reloads
A) Speed
B) Tactical
C) Emergency
1) 2 hand
2) Strong hand
3) Weak hand
12) Transition Drills
A) Standing
B) Supine
C) Monica
D) Behind Cover
13) Ready Positions
A) Covert Ready
B) Center hold
C) Holstered etc
14) Buddy Team drills
15) Reflexive Fire
16) Turn and shoot
A) 90degrees.
B) 180degrees
17) SEB Drills (combat focus shooting)
A) SEB targets (up and number drills)
B) Colored numbers , shapes and sizes etc.
18) F.A.S.T.
19) Hostage drills
20) Multiple Targets (2-3 or more)
21) Malfunction clearance
A) Type 1,2, and 3
B) Strong, weak , and 2 handed
22) Moving targets
23) Get off the X drill
24) Retention Positions
A) Regular
B) Guarded
C) Hand on shoulder
D) Defending the SUL
25) Center hold break contact drill
26) Modes of fire
A) FTS
B) Hammers
C) Controlled Pairs
D) NSR’s
27) Speed drills
A) notebook paper, whole, ½, ¼ etc.
28) Shooting from a vehicle
29) Alternate sighting Techniques
30) Offset (rifles)
31) Shoot no shoot scenarios
32) Ranges w/ handgun contact to 50yds, w/ rifle as far as possible.
33) Draw stroke, by the numbers.
Duke of Doubt
member
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When shooting bolt-action rifles from the standing position, I prefer to rest the stock of the rifle in the crook of my left elbow while grasping my right wrist with my left hand. The right hand holds the pistol grip or stock wrist as normal. I stand sideways to the target, head turned left, facing. With this technique the muzzle wobbles less, and it looks terrific to the ladies. The rifle looks a mile long, especially if the bayonet is attached.
David E
Member
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- Aug 3, 2008
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- 7,459
I'm not that familiar with Cowboy shooting, but from what I've seen on the shows "Cowboys" and "Shooting USA," the National level shooters still aim and still win.
Back in the late 50's, Jeff Cooper was quite fond of hip shooting during the early days of the Bear Valley Leatherslap shooting contests. That is, until a deputy named Jack Weaver started beating everyone using an unorthodox stance that Cooper adopted, calling it the "Weaver Stance."
.
I am a little disabled so here's my routine
Shoot standing, fall on my butt shoot again, roll right and shoot, roll left and shot, lay on my back and shoot, get on my right knee and shoot and so on and so on.
I practice from every position I can think of, the last time I tried to sign up for some tactical training they told me I was too disabled, Ha. I can hit the 10 ring from any position at 15 yards, practice, practice, and practice some more.
Shoot standing, fall on my butt shoot again, roll right and shoot, roll left and shot, lay on my back and shoot, get on my right knee and shoot and so on and so on.
I practice from every position I can think of, the last time I tried to sign up for some tactical training they told me I was too disabled, Ha. I can hit the 10 ring from any position at 15 yards, practice, practice, and practice some more.
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crebralfix
member
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Let's see...this one will freak out people who don't take the time to understand it.
The 1/2 Hip shooting position (as described in Shooting to Live by Fairbairn and Sykes. McGivern mentions something similar, but places his finger on the trigger while the gun is in the holster) is all about getting the first shot off as quickly as possible at a target that is close and/or closing in. The idea is the trigger finger goes on the frame of the weapon and slaps/pulls the trigger as soon as the elbow touches the point of the hip. Since the gun is fired when level, the target will be hit in the lower torso or upper thigh. The shooter would then follow-up with multiple shots as the gun moves upward (called "Zippers" by Farnam and others).
This alone freaks people out, but the speed is astounding. It's even faster when the gun is carried in the appendix position. Obviously, a gun in hand is the fastest. I had a student several weeks ago who needed a tune-up. His first shot from concealment was taking 1.4-1.6 seconds. Using this technique along with synchronized hands, we got it down to 0.9 seconds. With some work for a month or so, he'll get that down to a consistent 0.8 seconds. Misses didn't happen.
[Deleted another technique that I'm not going to post because some doofus will try it before he's ready and shoot himself.]
One variation is to draw to the target. By this I mean, the muzzle points in the direction of the attacker, who is coming at you from an angle other than directly in front of you. The gun is turned to the target just as it leaves the holster. This is extremely dangerous and never acceptable in any sort of competition or casual range setting. It's for fighting only. Roger Phillips discusses it on his blog.
I'd be curious to hear from any single action fast draw folks regarding similar techniques used in their competitions.
Don't be stupid and try ANY of this without training up your point shooting and 1/2 Hip drawstroke first. Get a good instructor like Phillips or Temkin first and they'll show it to you when you're ready.
Citations:
Fairbairn, William E. and Sykes, Eric A. Shooting to Live. Boulder, CO: Paladin Press, 1987.
McGivern, Ed. Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting. Chicago, IL: Follett, 1975.
Roger Phillips' Blog: http://rogerphillips.oregonshooter.com/
The 1/2 Hip shooting position (as described in Shooting to Live by Fairbairn and Sykes. McGivern mentions something similar, but places his finger on the trigger while the gun is in the holster) is all about getting the first shot off as quickly as possible at a target that is close and/or closing in. The idea is the trigger finger goes on the frame of the weapon and slaps/pulls the trigger as soon as the elbow touches the point of the hip. Since the gun is fired when level, the target will be hit in the lower torso or upper thigh. The shooter would then follow-up with multiple shots as the gun moves upward (called "Zippers" by Farnam and others).
This alone freaks people out, but the speed is astounding. It's even faster when the gun is carried in the appendix position. Obviously, a gun in hand is the fastest. I had a student several weeks ago who needed a tune-up. His first shot from concealment was taking 1.4-1.6 seconds. Using this technique along with synchronized hands, we got it down to 0.9 seconds. With some work for a month or so, he'll get that down to a consistent 0.8 seconds. Misses didn't happen.
[Deleted another technique that I'm not going to post because some doofus will try it before he's ready and shoot himself.]
One variation is to draw to the target. By this I mean, the muzzle points in the direction of the attacker, who is coming at you from an angle other than directly in front of you. The gun is turned to the target just as it leaves the holster. This is extremely dangerous and never acceptable in any sort of competition or casual range setting. It's for fighting only. Roger Phillips discusses it on his blog.
I'd be curious to hear from any single action fast draw folks regarding similar techniques used in their competitions.
Don't be stupid and try ANY of this without training up your point shooting and 1/2 Hip drawstroke first. Get a good instructor like Phillips or Temkin first and they'll show it to you when you're ready.
Citations:
Fairbairn, William E. and Sykes, Eric A. Shooting to Live. Boulder, CO: Paladin Press, 1987.
McGivern, Ed. Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting. Chicago, IL: Follett, 1975.
Roger Phillips' Blog: http://rogerphillips.oregonshooter.com/
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Claude Clay
Member
possom
all before lunch, yes?
i ran out of ammo and daylight by 9a
___________________________________________
the following exercise helps bring together many elements of SD training:
3 IDPA targets[t], paper plates[pp], tape, timer and your concealed rig
adjust to fit your physical shooting conditions:
set one at 11 o’clock at 3 paces[l], another at noon at 5 paces[m] and the 3rd at 1 o’clock at 7 paces[r]
pp lt low (belly area), pp mt center mass
from the timer draw and point shoot lt pp, depending on your speed this may be done one handed or two
transition to mt as gun is coming up to snapshot (two handed) the pp and continue to a pointed 3rd shot on the rt for a head or heart shot.
Mix up the t’s and the pp’s locations so you don’t imprint. After you can get 3 shots all on target-or close enuf to count- add follow-up shots to the training. Keep it fresh, keep it moving, change t & pp locations; do not develop patterns. After you are comfortable with doing this alone, practicing with others (remember safety at all times) will advance you faster.
As to what is good? no set answer but- from holstered to 3 good hits in 2 seconds likely means you will survive an encounter. Perhaps taking some damage, but alive. The closer you can get to 1.5 seconds makes you about as good as good gets. To be more gooder get time down to 1.25.
Playing with friends allows for them to [with your back turned] arrange the t’s and tape a pictures of a gun, a knife and a cell phone on the t’s. At the buzzer you have to turn and engage in order of most to least danger. Lots of variations—lots of ‘fun’
This is a snapshot of one training exercise and what proceeds it isn’t mentioned. in part learning:
to draw; don’t try to be fast: smooth is fast
to point shoot
snapshots
speed reloads; counting rounds
indy 500 racers started out with the same drivers permit you did.
Practice, desire and innate skill separate them from the masses
Practice and train to your abilities and do not think yourself better than reality shows you to be.
This will keep you away from the peter principle. Thus minimizing your frustration while increasing your likelihood of survival.
all before lunch, yes?
i ran out of ammo and daylight by 9a
___________________________________________
the following exercise helps bring together many elements of SD training:
3 IDPA targets[t], paper plates[pp], tape, timer and your concealed rig
adjust to fit your physical shooting conditions:
set one at 11 o’clock at 3 paces[l], another at noon at 5 paces[m] and the 3rd at 1 o’clock at 7 paces[r]
pp lt low (belly area), pp mt center mass
from the timer draw and point shoot lt pp, depending on your speed this may be done one handed or two
transition to mt as gun is coming up to snapshot (two handed) the pp and continue to a pointed 3rd shot on the rt for a head or heart shot.
Mix up the t’s and the pp’s locations so you don’t imprint. After you can get 3 shots all on target-or close enuf to count- add follow-up shots to the training. Keep it fresh, keep it moving, change t & pp locations; do not develop patterns. After you are comfortable with doing this alone, practicing with others (remember safety at all times) will advance you faster.
As to what is good? no set answer but- from holstered to 3 good hits in 2 seconds likely means you will survive an encounter. Perhaps taking some damage, but alive. The closer you can get to 1.5 seconds makes you about as good as good gets. To be more gooder get time down to 1.25.
Playing with friends allows for them to [with your back turned] arrange the t’s and tape a pictures of a gun, a knife and a cell phone on the t’s. At the buzzer you have to turn and engage in order of most to least danger. Lots of variations—lots of ‘fun’
This is a snapshot of one training exercise and what proceeds it isn’t mentioned. in part learning:
to draw; don’t try to be fast: smooth is fast
to point shoot
snapshots
speed reloads; counting rounds
indy 500 racers started out with the same drivers permit you did.
Practice, desire and innate skill separate them from the masses
Practice and train to your abilities and do not think yourself better than reality shows you to be.
This will keep you away from the peter principle. Thus minimizing your frustration while increasing your likelihood of survival.
possum
Member
if i have my way it is all done before breakfast!
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Where possible and safe, I liked to shoot from lying on my side or back, to simulate having been knocked down. Pay particular attention to Rule Four, as the high angle taken by the bullet will make it travel much farther than normal. It is also easy to put your leg or foot up too high and shoot them.
I'd like to add one thing-
Be very aware of the lay of the land. Any small hills or bumps in the ground between you and your target can cause your bullet to skip if it glances off of them. This can be dangerous. I like to get my eye down to the level my barrel will be at to make absolutely sure the flight path is clear before practicing ground techniques.
My FIL is into fast draw big time, I tried it once. No real transfer to shooting for survival IMO.
The gear, placement of holster, stance and draw are all very specialized for speed. The hit rate is less than 50% on a 24" target at either 15, 18 or 21 ft (masters). The times are about .6 (not competitive) to .3 seconds...extremely fast. A top shooter told my FIL if your times are .5s and you hit more often than not, you'll win many times. Most miss more often than not in search of more speed.
Having shot Cowboy fast draw (once) and done lots of Fairbairn/Sykes-Applegate style PS, I think 1/2 hip is about the fastest real-world method of hitting a notebook paper size zone at 4yds or less (not counting a retention type shot at contact range). 3/4 hip (arm almost fully extended at about chest level) is great to 6yds or so and shoulder point, 1 or 2 hands, will go to 10yds w/out misses...at least it does for me with not a lot of practice.
Kind of Blued
Member
I have an ongoing struggle with myself regarding my grip of semi-auto pistols. I instinctively prefer an untraditional grip, it feels better, I grip the gun higher and tighter, and I can shoot faster follow-ups using it, but alas, it's not "proper technique".
What I'm refering to is moving my weak hand UP one knuckle so that my weak hand's middle finger is touching the bottom of the trigger guard while my weak hand pointer finger grips the front of the trigger guard.
Many modern pistols have serrations on the front strap, so I gather that this isn't totally unaccepted.
Anyway, it works for me, but it'll get you into trouble shooting magnum revolvers... "MIND THE GAP!!!"
What I'm refering to is moving my weak hand UP one knuckle so that my weak hand's middle finger is touching the bottom of the trigger guard while my weak hand pointer finger grips the front of the trigger guard.
Many modern pistols have serrations on the front strap, so I gather that this isn't totally unaccepted.
Anyway, it works for me, but it'll get you into trouble shooting magnum revolvers... "MIND THE GAP!!!"
crebralfix
member
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- Mar 7, 2004
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- 1,356
Kind of Blued,
Who's to say what's right and wrong IF IT WORKS FOR YOU? Everyone has different physiology. For example, I cannot shoot a semi-auto with my thumbs crossed because it stresses my thumb joint and gets very painful within 10 rounds. I can do it just fine for revolvers with small grips.
Though there are disadvantages to the grip you mentioned, if that's all that's available to you...then use it.
***
Re: Dave E's questions:
Gun: Glock 19
Holster: appendix carry from concealment (under a t-shirt)
Range: 2-5 yards, averaging 3 yards while learning
He was learning the basics of point shooting for the first time. The intent of the training was to teach him how to teach himself. The focus was on:
1) Keeping the gun horizontal
2) Convulsive grip
3) Focus on a small spot on the target
He uses SouthNarc's draw technique. The primary problem this student had was that he was doing his draw "by the numbers". Meaning, each step was separate and distinct, resulting in what I call "short mental pauses between steps". I simply showed him how to analyze his draw and make it flow. I then showed him a few supplemental techniques to cover what his standard draw missed.
"Synchronized hands" means that both hands move simultaneously. When he started, the support hand would move to clear the garment. Once garment clearing was complete, the gun hand would achieve the grip. This is literally wasted 0.2 seconds. So, I taught him to move both hands simultaneously, with the gun hand ***slightly*** behind the first, with the objective to keep them as close as possible.
Once the muzzle cleared the holster, he was also not turning it to the target immediately. Again, another 0.1 seconds saved. I didn't really have to go over this with him; he figured it out on his own. One variation on this was drawing to the target. That means, for a right handed shooter, the muzzle clears and points left immediately (Obviously, keep your support hand out of the way. 1/2 Hip mandates that the shooter puts his arm past his hip in a sort of running position). For a target on the right side, he hand to swing under and flip (or just turn it--either way is fine, but turning it sweeps a large area), though the Glock can be shot upside down.
Again, we operated from the context of "This is my emergency draw" to be used in extreme close quarters. This concept fit into his "martial art" for handgunning. Rather than "demand" that he change what he's doing, I just integrated a few new ideas into his current set of skills.
In case anyone needs to be reminded: this is dangerous stuff. It's not appropriate for a public range; most people will just freak out if they see you doing it. Get a competent instructor to show you these techniques before trying it alone. There are some details, that if missed, will result in a major problem.
Who's to say what's right and wrong IF IT WORKS FOR YOU? Everyone has different physiology. For example, I cannot shoot a semi-auto with my thumbs crossed because it stresses my thumb joint and gets very painful within 10 rounds. I can do it just fine for revolvers with small grips.
Though there are disadvantages to the grip you mentioned, if that's all that's available to you...then use it.
***
Re: Dave E's questions:
Gun: Glock 19
Holster: appendix carry from concealment (under a t-shirt)
Range: 2-5 yards, averaging 3 yards while learning
He was learning the basics of point shooting for the first time. The intent of the training was to teach him how to teach himself. The focus was on:
1) Keeping the gun horizontal
2) Convulsive grip
3) Focus on a small spot on the target
He uses SouthNarc's draw technique. The primary problem this student had was that he was doing his draw "by the numbers". Meaning, each step was separate and distinct, resulting in what I call "short mental pauses between steps". I simply showed him how to analyze his draw and make it flow. I then showed him a few supplemental techniques to cover what his standard draw missed.
"Synchronized hands" means that both hands move simultaneously. When he started, the support hand would move to clear the garment. Once garment clearing was complete, the gun hand would achieve the grip. This is literally wasted 0.2 seconds. So, I taught him to move both hands simultaneously, with the gun hand ***slightly*** behind the first, with the objective to keep them as close as possible.
Once the muzzle cleared the holster, he was also not turning it to the target immediately. Again, another 0.1 seconds saved. I didn't really have to go over this with him; he figured it out on his own. One variation on this was drawing to the target. That means, for a right handed shooter, the muzzle clears and points left immediately (Obviously, keep your support hand out of the way. 1/2 Hip mandates that the shooter puts his arm past his hip in a sort of running position). For a target on the right side, he hand to swing under and flip (or just turn it--either way is fine, but turning it sweeps a large area), though the Glock can be shot upside down.
Again, we operated from the context of "This is my emergency draw" to be used in extreme close quarters. This concept fit into his "martial art" for handgunning. Rather than "demand" that he change what he's doing, I just integrated a few new ideas into his current set of skills.
In case anyone needs to be reminded: this is dangerous stuff. It's not appropriate for a public range; most people will just freak out if they see you doing it. Get a competent instructor to show you these techniques before trying it alone. There are some details, that if missed, will result in a major problem.
Fairborn Applegate...
Used to be quite commonly taught, the FBI and US military adapted techniques from that system. It is actually a good system for low light relatively close quarters shooting. Very much like Usher's "natural shooting".
Used to be quite commonly taught, the FBI and US military adapted techniques from that system. It is actually a good system for low light relatively close quarters shooting. Very much like Usher's "natural shooting".
David E
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This grip was in vogue in the late 70's, early 80's.
It's fallen from favor due to evolutions towards better technique. None of the top shooters do it your way.
If you think your way is better than "proper technique," then I must ask: What do you consider "proper technique?"
I disagree that there is a "cookie cutter" technique for anything. Combatives teach you the guiding principles forcing you to think along a certain path, but allowing you to engage in some "freelance" development on what works best for you.
No body shape is the same, so cookie cutter grips will not work for everyone as well as they do for the "developer".
No body shape is the same, so cookie cutter grips will not work for everyone as well as they do for the "developer".
Geronimo45
Member
I have had a strange sort of hold where the weak-side thumb is in front of the trigger guard. Probably work better with an auto with a serrated/hooked trigger guard front.
David E
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One thing everyone should do is shoot the gun while laying down or leaning over. Many people try to "correct" the sight picture that's 90 degrees different than what they're used to by straining to get the gun back up to vertical.
Just stay there, get your sight picture and place your shots.
.
Just stay there, get your sight picture and place your shots.
.
possum
Member
yep, the position dosen't matter at all you can get the hits. if you can see the sights, and press the trigger, that is all there is to it, apply the fundamentals no matter what positon or drill that you are doing. if that is shooting upside down, pulling the trigger with an ink pen, your pinky etc. it is all the same.
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