understanding the shoulder shot

[JJHACK]

This question comes up many times in my lodge when hunters are trying to decide where to shoot African game. I think it's best to sort out a few terms, such as "shoulder". The shoulder is not a bone, it's a joint, it's also referred to as the muscular region around the scapula and humerus. I would bet the vast mojority of people don't fully understand this bit of anatomy. The scapula is also known as, or is often referred to as, the shoulder blade. The humerus is the first long bone of the front leg which is connected to the scapula. There is no single part of the anatomy that is a "shoulder", but rather the area of the joint which is called the shoulder.


In this Kudu anatomy drawing, you can see the scapula isn't really covering anything vital. A small portion of the spine, which is a very small target to define, when under the skin and muscle. If the shot is too high, the bones can still be hit solid, but no vital organs will take a direct hit. A miss of the scapula, too low, is much better.
When you hear a person say they "broke the shoulder(s)", they typically refer to that (in my opinion) as the scapula or humerus bones. An absolutely dead on the money bullseye into the shoulder would be the joint between the two. However I challange anyone to show me that they've broken them both!
Shooting through the shoulders is simple enough but doesn't always mean any bones were broken, or any vital organs hit. I have a shoulder blade right here on my desk from a black bear that has a healed bullet hole right through it. It has another hole from my bullet which actually killed the bear.

This shows the relationship of the scapula and actual humerus bones. The lower humerus was from the other side of this bear, or opposite front leg. It was shot and broken and then healed just fine allowing this bear to keep on living, although he had a severe limp. The scapula also had a bullet hole on the top edge. My bullet hit lower and killed the bear many years after the original hunter wounded him, by taking the shoulder shot only inches too high.
If an animal has the shoulder joint between the scapula and humerus broken on both sides they cannot make forward progress with there front legs, that is plain and simple. If you shoot too high, through the shoulder blades, you will be below the spine and above the organs just as this scapula above shows. If you blow through the humerus you will, in nearly every case, hit vital organs and make quick death of the animal.
The vast majority of hunters I've heard say "I broke the shoulders" are referring to the front legs being broken. My question would be (if I was rude) lets skin him and see what's broken I want you to show me where the shoulder is. It would not likely be identifed properly by the majority of recreational sport hunters.
I like the low scapula shot and take it often. Anyone shooting this way must have a fair bit of anatomy knowledge. This whole assembly floats inside the body. The front scapula and leg bones are not linked to the rest of the skeleton with a joint. They are free floating and have no skeletal connection to the rest of the skeleton's bones. From the scapula down they are only connected to each other and not the rest of the skeleton. Again most hunters don't picture it this way and most assume there is some big joint connecting the front legs to the main skeleton similiar to the pelvis joint.

This is a closer photo of the off side broken humerus bone which had completely healed. It's 30% shorter than the other side, but this bear lived many years after being shot in the leg. My guess is that the bears leg was too far forward climbing up a hill and the bullet that broke this leg exited the armpit and missed the body completely.
Because of this when an animal walks climbs or stands up hill or down hill the joints in the front legs move a great distance. The scapula can move nearly a foot under the skin in every direction, it's loose under there and moves all around depending upon the stride or reach of the animal.
Making this your aimpoint causes various concerns depending upon the way the animal is standing. The bones on the right do not always match the bones on the left either. They are fully independent of one another. I like to "break the shoulders" but what exactly does that mean? To me it means break the humerus or the joint connecting the humerus to the scapula. Anything higher is non vital except for the very small section of spine (although likely pretty painful) and lower is below any reasonable reference to a shoulder shot. Even though lower can be a perfect heart shot and still very lethal. With some high powered rifles and explosive bullets, a shot through the scapula will destroy enough bone that the additional fragmnets will explode into the chest cavity causing additional hemorage of vital organs.
I think the most important thing to remember about the whole thing is not to deliberately shoot for the scapula but rather just below it or at the bottom of it. A shot going only a few inches high will be a complete distaster and the animal will run for a long way! Missing the mark on the lower side is going to be better every time.
Here is another angle of the scapula above showing the top edge of the bullet hole. Not much of a miss too high, but it was enough to allow him to survive for years. It has quite a lot of abnormal growth but the hole is still through it.


It's important, I think, to understand these concepts before you go out and start trying to bust shoulders!

 

[buck460XVR]

This question comes up many times in my lodge when hunters are trying to decide where to shoot African game. I think it's best to sort out a few terms, such as "shoulder". The shoulder is not a bone, it's a joint, it's also referred to as the muscular region around the scapula and humerus. I would bet the vast mojority of people don't fully understand this bit of anatomy.

I think the showing of folks that not every game animal has the same "sweet" spot should be the just of this thread, not whether or not we are using the correct term for body parts.

I think part of the confusion comes from the common knowledge that in humans, "shoulder" is a term even Doctors use to describe the group of structures in the area of the shoulder joint made up of three bones: the clavicle (collarbone), the scapula (shoulder blade), and the humerus (upper arm bone) as well as associated muscles, ligaments and tendons. They then tend to refer to the shoulder joint itself as the glenohumeral joint. Folks then just transfer this to animal anatomy.....and understandably so. Most of us know what folks are talking about when they say they broke a shoulder. Usually means breaking any of those structures comprising of the shoulder system making an animal incapable of using it's front leg/legs. Is it the correct place to aim? Depends on what you are using and what you are hunting. Generally works well on deer when using a high powered rifle. Not only is the animal generally incapitated, but both lungs and major arteries lay between the "shoulders". With a handgun things are more iffy, depending on the caliber and bullet. With a bow it used to be one place you did not want to hit because it stopped the arrow from reaching the biggest piece of the boiler room. Modern compounds have almost done away with this tho. Now what works well on deer does not always apply to other animals. Major reason is anatomy and it differs between species. Every responsible hunter should know where to place their shot on the game they are hunting with the weapon they are using....not a big surprise. If they are hunting game unfamiliar to them and using a guide, I would assume it's a very basic responsibility of that guide to inform the hunter where to place his shot and to make sure they are using the appropriate weapon to make that shot. Not only because that's what they are getting paid to do, but outta consideration and respect of the quarry. Now whether or not that hunter has the skill to place the shot or will even listen to the guide depends on the hunter. Prime example is Turkey Hunting. Common knowledge is that a turkey needs to be hit in the head/neck or spine for a quick clean kill and folks need to pattern their gun to make sure it shoots to POA with the loads being used. But many folks never pattern their gun and in their excitement aim at COM and wonder why the bird flies off never to be seen again. Same with deer, folks know that a gut shot is one of the worst possible scenarios, but how many folks in their excitement to hit the animal aim, just like they do at the paper targets at the range.....dead center. The result at the range is a bullseye....in the field it generally means a long iffy bloodtrail. While a poorly placed shot trying to break the shoulders may result in a lost animal, one does not have to miss a "heart only" shot by much and lose an animal either.

 

[Vol46]

One of the thinks that really struck me on my African bow hunt several years back was how much lower & further forward the vitals of many of their "plains game" animals were than our whitetails ( see JJHACK's Kudu picture). Fortunately, I was hunting with a competent PH who spent a lot of time before the hunt going over anatomy, & reinforced those lessons while watching animals from the blinds we hunted.

 

[twofifty]

JJHack thanks for posting what for me is a useful anatomy lesson, and for starting what I hope will be a great discussion re: shot placement on N. American species.

I am particularly interested in hearing about anatomy and placement on quartering-away deer and elk. I imagine a bullet first perforating the liver and going on through the diaphragm into the lung/heart/shoulder area.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

One of the fellows on an exclusively traditional muzzleloader website took nothing but shoulder shots on deer this year and harvested several. They dropped in their tracks, for when properly hit, the ball not only messes up the joint but also impacts the spine.

Forsyth in 1867 wrote that he preferred the shoulder shot and a patched round ball on deer type big game, even though he had access to conical bullets. He was a world famous, "dangerous big game hunter" in India and author of The Sporting Rifle and It's Projectiles.

For you folks with modern cartridges, a heavy enough bullet to remain intact, plus a powerful enough load..., a shoulder shot should be an excellent choice.



LD

 

[3212]

I took a 140 lb 6 point whitetail last fall with a shot to the shoulder area.It was in brush at 80 yards.The .243 struck the bone between the leg and the neck and forced a 1 inch segment into the chest cavity and fragmented.It was the shot I was presented with and the deer dropped and kicked for about a minute.

 

[Vol46]

JJHack thanks for posting what for me is a useful anatomy lesson, and for starting what I hope will be a great discussion re: shot placement on N. American species.

I am particularly interested in hearing about anatomy and placement on quartering-away deer and elk. I imagine a bullet first perforating the liver and going on through the diaphragm into the lung/heart/shoulder area.

For deer, aim at the far shoulder on quartering away shots. Depending on the angle, you may get liver or heart, but it will definitely put them down quickly.

 

[sage5907]

Quote: "This question comes up many times in my lodge when hunters are trying to decide where to shoot African game. I think it's best to sort out a few terms, such as "shoulder". The shoulder is not a bone, it's a joint, it's also referred to as the muscular region around the scapula and humerus. I would bet the vast mojority of people don't fully understand this bit of anatomy. The scapula is also known as, or is often referred to as, the shoulder blade. The humerus is the first long bone of the front leg which is connected to the scapula. There is no single part of the anatomy that is a "shoulder", but rather the area of the joint which is called the shoulder."

I fully agree with this statement. I try to use a high shoulder shot on every large game animal I shoot aiming for the joint. This aim-point is automatic for me and the skill was developed largely from my archery training. When I aim at a deer with a bow I first see the front leg and follow it upward with my eye to the center-line of the deer and then the eye would go back about 4 inches to the lungs where I would pick a spot to shoot. With a rifle it's go straight up the front leg to a point above the centerline of the animal.

 

[MCgunner]

I think the showing of folks that not every game animal has the same "sweet" spot should be the just of this thread, not whether or not we are using the correct term for body parts.

No better example of THAT than the difference in hog and deer anatomy, something I'm more familiar with than African antelope, but no matter the animal, you need to know where to shoot it, and they do differ.

 

[sage5907]

It's the same thing on a hog. If you shoot a hog in the lungs he runs and you have to go find him. If you shoot him on the shoulder joint he falls where he stands. I had trouble when I first started shooting hogs because the front leg was so close to the head. From a distance they look like they don't have a neck and the head is stuck to the front leg. This makes a deer hunter want to shoot them too far back which ends up being a lung shot.

 

[Boxhead]

I have never had a double lung shot fail me. So this is where I shoot contrary to only my African PH's.

 

[MCgunner]

From a distance they look like they don't have a neck and the head is stuck to the front leg. This makes a deer hunter want to shoot them too far back which ends up being a lung shot.

The problem with hogs is there are no lungs behind the shoulder, just guts. The diaphragm is up under the back of the shoulder and lungs and vital reside such that a shoulder shot is necessary to get at them. My first hog, I made this mistake. On gutting it, I realized my error. I had to blood trail that thing for 350 yards through heavy cover and got attacked. Fortunately it was moving sorta slow at the end of that tracking job, running out of life, so I brought it down with a shot from my .357 magnum to the head.

 

[sage5907]

A high shoulder shot on the joint is the quickest way for me to bring a big animal down. About 20 years ago I started using a high shoulder shot and it brought me to using larger caliber bullets. I hunted for years with a 25-06, and then a 270 Winchester and finally settled on a 30-06 as working the best for me. I'm working on a 338-06 now because I like the idea of a 200 grain bullet @ 2700 fps.

Again back to hogs, I've shot a bear at close range but shooting a large hog in the brush is far more exciting if you shoot them too far back. It's amazing how fast a large hog can run. They look like a Volkswagon beetle going through the brush and I pity anyone who shoots them too far back and gets in their way when they run.

 

[JJHACK]

My loaner rifles at camp in Africa are 30/06 for good reason. In the last two decades of this business we have harvested many thousands of animals.

There becomes a line in the sand you begin to see with this high resolution of game taken. Bullets with the .308 diameter shot faster then 2800 fps are a better killer of big to very big game then anything smaller.

.308 also is the diameter that begins to provide you functional levels if blood for tracking. Sure some smaller diameters will too, but not always. I'm not suggesting that .308 is perfect, but it's the starting point of rather consistent blood tracking.

With the advent if the TSX and TTSX bullets this same rifle is now every bit the equal to a 300 magnum shooting standard cup and core bullets. Our load in the loaner rifles is 165gr TSX shot at 2900-2950 fps. It has now accounted for several thousand big animals up to eland(2000lb) I shot a giraffe with it as well although it was a brain shot.

No need for anything heavier, the 165 grain retains all it's weight and exits 80-85% of the time. It's plenty accurate too, I have Kenton industries turrets on this rifle. Laser the target set the elevation turret to that distance and shoot. It returns to zero and adjusts from 100 to 700 yards in a single 360 rotation.

 

[sage5907]

Quote: "No need for anything heavier, the 165 grain retains all it's weight and exits 80-85% of the time."

I can understand that in Africa you would want a bullet that provides deep penetration and exits 80-85% of the time. But here in the U.S. it's not that necessary and as a quick killing agent I want a bullet that expends 100% of it's energy inside the animal. I also want a caliber size entry hole with no exit hole. I do taxidermy work and when I see a large entry wound I know that bullet is not for me and I always ask what cartridge and what bullet were you using. I also prefer standard cup & core bullets primarily because of the price but also because I shoot predators and targets with the same bullets I hunt bigger game.

 

[JJHACK]

It's not just Africa, I have been 12 years as a hunting guide in Alaska, and 15 years in damage control in Washington state.

I want an exit as often as possible, finding what I shoot is mandatory, blood tracking is a critical part of success. Energy expanded inside animals is not a reality. Tissue trauma and massive hemorrhage is where the rubber meets the road. Our hunters come with all kinds of bullets and loads. They bring every cartridge. The volume of repeatable success and failures begins to show through. I would bet you will find the majority of professional hunters in Africa and guides in NA will want clients shooting the TSX bullets.

Monolithic bullets only make a bore size entry. They open as entry begins. Most of the time we actually struggle to even find the entry hole. Exits with mono metal bullets are usually 25-30 bigger then entry.

Your mileage may vary, but after many thousands of African game, more then 400 bears, and countless other species in North America, Australia, and Europe, I can say without question the monolithic bullets that exit are by a very wide margin the most dependable and lethal bullets available today.

If the only species hunted are deer, then any center fire cartridge is fine. Deer are on the end of the scale with marginal will to live. Much like the Kudu, they prefer to run a short way and lie down. Unlike herd species which will run dead on their feet a very long way trying to stay with the group.

Mountain goats are a very tough animal with extraordinary will to live. Much like blue wildebeest and zebra.

 

[sage5907]

JJHACK, you experience and discussion are respected and very interesting. I have no reason to question your logic about the TSX bullet except in the interest of discussion. There are several quality bullet makers in the U.S. and each one of them thinks their premium bullets are the best. Thousands of reloaders use their bullets each year with huge confidence in their chosen bullet, and many of them, even with premium bullets, don't have the skill to place the bullets where they should hit.

This brings up my point and I will be interested in your response. The 30 caliber TSX is an all copper bullet with a density of 8.96. The lead in a standard cup & core bullet with a premium well designed jacket has a density of 11.32. This lack of density requires a 165 grain copper bullet to be larger in mass (longer) to achieve the 165 grain weight. My logic says a less dense/longer bullet will shed velocity faster than the cup & core version and thus will have less striking energy at 300 yards or further. If a TSX is hitting with less velocity and imparting more energy on the hill on the far side of the animal, how can it be so much more deadly? It appears that the lead bullet would have greater impacting energy, penetration to the skin on the far side, and a large wound channel. An exit wound is not necessary if the animal falls where it is shot which is what happens with most North American animals hit in the shoulder joint. I'm wondering if some of the success of the TSX bullet is from your mentoring skills before the hunters use them.

 

[JJHACK]

The ballistics lessons required on this will be another rather long series of posts.

The "energy" is not the ultimate defining element in lethal force, the destruction to tissue is.

A cup and core bullet of 180 grains will likely shed 50-60% of it's mass before it's through the organs. A monolithic bullet will retain 100%
The greater retained weight and momentum trumps the higher starting weight every time. It's why they exit so often.

The reference your bringing up here is often referred yo as sectional density. But sectional density only matters with solids, bullets that cannot lose weight or length. With a soft point or expanding bullet, the instant of impact so drastically changes the sectional density it no longer matters. Google sectional density for the particulars. SD no longer works when comparing heavy cup and core to mono metal bullets. It's only use is of bullets of identical construction, and even then it's questionable.

It's is not of much consequence to have a big heavy bullet in flight, if after impact it goes to pieces. Better to start with 75-80 percent of that weight and never lose any of it.

How many cup and core bullets have you recovered that still weigh the original amount? Even the legendary nosler partition rarely holds more then 60% and that bullet was the apex of hunting achievement in its day.

I'm in no position to judge anyone's choices. I'm simply offering up an unbiased view of performance based on a very high volume of big to really big game over decades of doing this for a living.

No debate, argument no hard feelings, I like the conversation. Just one guys opinion, it's worth what it cost you!

Velocity loss and accuracy are no issue, these are 8" green circles. The 30/06 camp rifle using Kenton turrets.

 

[ridgerunner1965]

a bullet that exits is always what you want.with out the exit hole you will not get a good blood trail.if the game drops at the shot then you dont need a exit. but how often does that happen?

 

[JJHACK]

As you can see the entry hole that concerned you is of no concern at all. This is a Zebra, not many soft skinned animals are more solidly built. If a bullet was going to blow up and make a huge hole this would be one of those species.


The Exit hole and the defining performance.


My hunter with an Impala. as you can see, or not see the entry is not visible.

However the exit hole was enough to track easily.

 

[sage5907]

Very impressive, how do you get the 2950 fps with the 165 grain TSX? Are you using 50 grains of IMR 4064? By looking at the broken shoulder on the zebra and the exit hole on the impala I don't think either of them ran very far. I have never used the TSX but I have read about their having some problems of inconsistent pressures. Looking at your long distant group examples that doesn't seem to be true.

 

[twofifty]

The idea that bullet recovery under the hide is preferable to a pass through was always puzzling to me. I believe energy's job is to drive the bullet as far into and through the animal as possible, to maximize damage and ensure a blood trail. In other words, 2 benefits from 1 bullet !

This Fall I was happy to see my deer with a 3" or so cup/core exit hole. It piled up after 3 big strides without so much as a twitch. There was a lot of blood on the ground.

Years ago a friend cleanly took a black bear. His cup/core bullet was recovered just under the skin. That long ago bear was just as dead as this year's buck, but if we'd had to track it the day would have been long. There was hardly any blood on the ground.

 

[JJHACK]

58 or so grains of 4350.

Remember that Barnes has had a number of variations of the "X" bullet for a long long time.

The current TSX bullets have narrow bands in the shank that ride the rifling, the friction is so greatly reduced with this design that they shoot as consistently as is possible. The density of the shank is exact, unlike lead which is formed with the jacket, the TSX bullets are as if they had been turned on a lathe.

 

[Boxhead]

JJ,

Agree or not?

 

[sage5907]

That's a grain more than I load with standard cup & core bullets and I get excellent accuracy. I note that the Barnes website says to seat the bullet @ .050 off the lands. I measure the seating depth on my 30-06 rifles so that isn't a problem for me. In the past I have been disappointed with the newer designer bullets but you have me curious enough to give the TSX a try. I appreciate you willingness to share the loading data.