understanding the shoulder shot

[Grumulkin]

There is nothing quite like making things complicated. Pretty much every hunter out there with the intelligence above a moron knows what, in common parlance, is a shoulder. When you start talking about the scapula, the glenohumeral joint, etc., hardly any of them will know or remember if you tell them and, in fact, it's not necessary to know. For something people can remember, terminology like shoulder, on the shoulder, low shoulder, high shoulder, behind the shoulder, chest etc. will probably work a bit better.

This "premium bullet" nonsense is also way overblown. My criteria of a good bullet is if it shoots accurately in my gun and if the animal was dead that is was used on. I've been on several trips to South Africa and none of the 40 or 50 animals I've shot (all of which were recovered and entirely shot by me) were with a so called premium bullet. Most of them were one shot kills. For the ones that weren't one shot kills, the fault wasn't in the bullet.

That's not to say I don't use things like Barnes bullets if they happen to shoot accurately for me. That said, the only animal I've ever taken with a monometal bullet; a Barnes TSX; was a groundhog with a 30/06 and it worked (no kidding) and it wasn't even a shoulder shot! By the way, Barnes bullets aren't God's gift to accuracy so I only use them in 3 different guns.



A Hornady 250 grain SST/ML bullet that came out of at 460 S&W Magnum handgun at around 2,350 fps and impacted an impala at around 80 yards in the anterior chest. It was a bang flop kill. Notice how well the bullet stayed together. Was it bullet failure?



There was complete penetration through the hind legs of a Klipspringer. Yes, also a one shot kill. It goes to show that size dies matter. It was taken at about 180 yards with an Encore handgun chambered in 460 S&W Magnum. It was standing on a rock and my idea had been to shoot it just behind the chest as a shoulder shot would have dislodged a lot of the fragile quills. Just as I shot, I'm told, it started to jump off the rock and hence the rear leg shot.



Is that an OK blood trail? It was hot with a 270 grain Speer cup and core bullet from about 200 yards with a 375 H&H Magnum. There was no exit wound.



FINALLY, a Barnes bullet exit wound from a shoulder shot. The bullet probably took out both shoulders, both scapulae and quite a bit of lung. My friend wanted some "solids" for smaller animals so loaded up some Barnes XLC "solid copper" bullets for his 340 Weatherby Magnum and then used that load on this steenbok. The PH told him to shoot it just behind the chest; in the excitement he took out the shoulder.



That little red dot on the shoulder with blood dribbling down is the single shoulder shot on this kudu. It went 20 or 30 feet; once again, not a premium bullet but a Hornady 265 grain FTX out of a 444 Marlin handgun. The exit wound was about the same size as the entry wound.

 

[JJHACK]

A 250 grain bullet going to pieces on a 125 lb impala ?

Talk about making things complicated! Will anyone question that as functional bullet integrity!

Next up a 460 bullet with a klipspringer, that is a whopping 40lb animal

Then a zebra with a 375HH, but we were not talking about anything bigger then the 30/06 in all the previous posts. The poster wrote specifically about using his 30/06 which was the entire direction of conversation.

Next you have a steenbok small as a little coyote, shot with a 340 weatherbys magnum using Barnes technology from 15 years ago. The XLC that's among the worst performing bullets I've ever had the displeasure to see in use,

In any case, the entire previous conversation was based on the questions from the poster with the 30/06. For which real world real experience was delivered.

Your antagonistic views, large bore bullets used on tiny animals relates in no way to the context of what was being discussed.

Well except for the only single animal being a groundhog with a 30/06 and the TSX bullet. Hardly the kind of experienced input that provided meaningful content in our conversation.

This forum is called the " the high road" ...... Think about it.. Do you just follow me around and continue to post your disruptive content for your own entertainment? Because it certainly does not flow well with the rest of us.

 

[sage5907]

I'm not young any more, in fact I'm running on a quarter of a tank. I can still walk many miles with a rifle on my shoulder and I shoot better on game than I did years ago. I have never been satisfied with the status quo and I am always listening to new ideas to make my rifles shoot better and my hunting experiences more successful. This has been an interesting thread to me because I use a shoulder joint shot and the 30-06 is my favorite cartridge. I spend the spring months working on new loads and tweaking my rifles. JJHACK has given some me thought for a new project and I will see where it goes.

 

[twofifty]

For deer, aim at the far shoulder on quartering away shots. Depending on the angle, you may get liver or heart, but it will definitely put them down quickly.

Thank you Vol46. Aiming for the far shoulder on a quartering away is a great visual tip.
Much appreciated.

 

[AKElroy]

I've not read the entire thread, but I do find utility in the shoulder shot on texas whitetail. On fast-paced reduction hunts or when hunting in really thick country, that is the only way I go. For open country, I'll take a neck or boiler room shot to maximize meat retention.

The lease I am on now has been cattle free for 4 years, so the grass is high year round. The mesquite and a adders are so thick, that if an animal manages to run out of sight, (with very narrow shooting lanes, out of sight can be 6-8 yards from where they were tagged), it may well be gone for good. This is difficult country to track in.

Whitetail don't always leave a blood trail. I had one this year that ran several hundred yards from a high-ish heart/lung shot. Body cavity was full of blood, none of it hit the ground until I opened her up. If not for the ground being damp enough to follow her tracks, she would have easily been lost. Shoulder shots on these animals solves that issue.

Hogs are different. First, identifying the actual joint is more difficult, and secondly, that is the best part of the animal IMO, and the only part I generally field harvest to crock for camp.

 

[Grumulkin]

A 250 grain bullet going to pieces on a 125 lb impala ?

Talk about making things complicated! Will anyone question that as functional bullet integrity!

Next up a 460 bullet with a klipspringer, that is a whopping 40lb animal

Then a zebra with a 375HH, but we were not talking about anything bigger then the 30/06 in all the previous posts. The poster wrote specifically about using his 30/06 which was the entire direction of conversation.

Next you have a steenbok small as a little coyote, shot with a 340 weatherbys magnum using Barnes technology from 15 years ago. The XLC that's among the worst performing bullets I've ever had the displeasure to see in use,

In any case, the entire previous conversation was based on the questions from the poster with the 30/06. For which real world real experience was delivered.

Your antagonistic views, large bore bullets used on tiny animals relates in no way to the context of what was being discussed.

Well except for the only single animal being a groundhog with a 30/06 and the TSX bullet. Hardly the kind of experienced input that provided meaningful content in our conversation.

This forum is called the " the high road" ...... Think about it.. Do you just follow me around and continue to post your disruptive content for your own entertainment? Because it certainly does not flow well with the rest of us.

Maybe it's "use enough gun" and you don't need a premium bullet for everything.

I would have been just as happy using something smaller on the klippie but as you well know, the maximum number of guns allowed into South Africa for hunting is one shotgun (which I didn't need or take) and two rifled guns of some sort which in my case were a rifle and a handgun. A 223 would have been just fine for a klipspringer but may have been a bit small for some other stuff.

Interesting about your experience with Barnes XLCs since all they were were Barnes X bullets with a cool looking blue coating that was supposed to reduce fouling and maybe increase velocity which it probably did. My friend took a bunch of animals with his with nary a problem.

Follow you around; not really. I've been coming here for a long time. Just adding an alternate opinion.

 

[KC45]

When I have to go tracking after wounded hog I carry the most lethal rifle I have in the safe and that's a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70. I keep it loaded with 375gr WFN cast bullet with enough 3031 to get it moving to 1,450 fps. It make two holes (entrance and exit) on hogs from all directions and it has never failed to anchor the animal quickly.
According to the calculator it's not an impressive cartridge but the real world results are impressive. I'm not sure if it's the bullet design or heavy weight but it works very well.

 

[RPRNY]

JJHack, thanks for an informative original post and for sharing your hard earned personal experience with plains game in Africa. Your comments regarding shoulder anatomy and shot placement are just as relevant to North American game.

With regard to "monolithic" bullets as you term them, you will find that 99% of experienced North American whitetail hunters deem them entirely unnecessary and potentially counterproductive. While Barnes, fir example, have made great improvements to their bullets in the last decade making them generally suitable for what are fairly frail animals in most of NA (the whitetail) except in tv hunting shows, any reasonably constructed lead core bullet from the Core-lokt, to the Hot-core, etc will do perfectly well. Indeed many thousands of deer are taken ethically with soft lead round ball and the despicable Foster slug every year. So, while my limited experience with African plains game suggests that your views on the benefits of a deep penetrating monolithic bullet are virtually unassailable, the fact that I have had killing pass through shots on deer with ye olde 30-30 and 150 grs Remington Core-lokt, and seen plenty of the same, strongly suggests that our little old whitetail just isn't built of the same stuff (users of the 300 mag to the contrary, I understand).

So, I don't think there's a real difference of opinion here, just different experiences forming valid opinions.

 

[Bbear]

JJHack and everyone else. I've enjoyed reading this thread. RPRNY, I agree. I am in the process of finding the 'perfect' bullet for use on the ranch I hunt. This is 3400 acres (roughly 2000 hectares) of mixed cover country. Shots can range from inside of 100 yards to over 400-500 with a couple of places a 600-700 could be taken.
Each year we take between 60-90 whitetail off of there as well as another 100 Axis. Most taken by paying hunters. The number ONE problem we run into is their inability to hit a floor, wall or ceiling if they were locked in a barn.
The SECOND problem is that many use mono-metal bullets that leave very small exit wounds. It is rare that a deer hit with such a round leaves ANY blood trail. Many of the youth hunters and lady hunters use 'lighter' calibers - 270, 25-06, 243 when taking whitetails standard cup and core bullets perform fairly well on those. The mono-metals pass through and leave smaller exit wounds. On the Axis deer, the smaller calibers with cup and core, pass through about half the time and leave from a double-diameter sized exit wound. On the whitetail, some of the exit wounds 2-4" in diameter. Blood trailing is better on these. But, again, the mono-metals seem to just pass on through.
I have been involved in too many tracking jobs (without a dog) that results in an animal recovered after meat spoilage to like the mono-metals on small to medium (100 - 225 lb) whitetails. Yet the pure cup and core bullets can often leave exit wounds that either destroy meat, if a 'shoulder' shot is taken or massive damage in the ribcage (which isn't all bad). On Axis (125lb to 300lb) the cup and core's usually don't pass through the heavier animals and on a smallish axis doe, have similar results to the whitetail.
So, I'm working on using bonded bullets to try and find a 'happy' median between the two.
Should I ever be lucky enough to take a hunt in Africa, I will go through the process again for finding that 'perfect' median for the game I would expect and hope to take over there.

 

[H&Hhunter]

As I've read through this I find myself 100% in agreement with JJ. While it would seem that the term "shoulder" would be a simple thing, as a guide you'd be shocked at how many hunters don't understand what the "shoulder" is and where to shoot when you say shoulder. As far as TSX and TTSX bullets go. I've never found a rifle that won't shoot them with bench rest style accuracy if they are put together correctly. I've had devastatingly good results on game with Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets and my sampling is well into the multiple hundreds of critters mark with these bullets. I'll be the first to mention that they do not always kill as fast as a rapid expansion cup and core bullet if they are shot behind the shoulder on a smaller soft animal. However if you learn the shoulder shot it completely solves that issue.

BTW for the "lung" shot behind the shoulder guys. If you shoot hogs or go to Africa keep this in mind. There is very little or no lung behind the shoulder on most African animals and hogs. Learn the term "vital triangle" that is where the goods are on any animal on the planet, the ones in North America simply have longer lungs that extend further back into the rib cage.

Grumulkin,

The whole point of using the 06 as a loaner gun is that your average hunter can shoot it well. The whole point of using the TSX in it is that they increase the capability of the gun on heavier game allowing those who shoot it to use it for larger game such as zebra and eland without the worries that you'll have on heavy game in that caliber with a cup and core bullet. Therefore it becomes a defacto "enough gun" for the average man. Because if hand the average man who isn't a big time shooter a .375H&H he's going to have problems adjusting to the recoil at first. It is really just that simple and should be pretty obvious to an old salt like yourself.

 

[BigBore44]

Personally I think JJ and H&H are just paid spokesmen for Barnes Bullets. I mean, being guides in Africa and taking thousands of african animals doesn't really mean they have any real world experience hunting in Africa.

Oh wait, nevermind.

Now, all joking aside, TSX bullets are what these guys prefer and have the most faith in. Is that wrong? No. Are other bullets capable? Yes. But if I'm spending several grand to go to Africa and my PH tells me to bring TSX bullets, that's probably what I'm gonna bring. I don't want to spend 10 grand to have my PH tell me "I told you so".

 

[buck460XVR]

As I've read through this I find myself 100% in agreement with JJ. While it would seem that the term "shoulder" would be a simple thing, as a guide you'd be shocked at how many hunters don't understand what the "shoulder" is and where to shoot when you say shoulder.

This was why my first reply in post #2 was...

I think the showing of folks that not every game animal has the same "sweet" spot should be the just of this thread, not whether or not we are using the correct term for body parts.

Major reason is anatomy and it differs between species. Every responsible hunter should know where to place their shot on the game they are hunting with the weapon they are using....not a big surprise. If they are hunting game unfamiliar to them and using a guide, I would assume it's a very basic responsibility of that guide to inform the hunter where to place his shot and to make sure they are using the appropriate weapon to make that shot.

While folks want to talk very scientifically and describe basic anatomy in medically correct terminology, it really isn't rocket science. Even before primitive man understood how CNS and circulatory systems worked, they knew the "sweet spot" to stick specific animals they hunted with their spears. Even tho they didn't know why, they knew hitting small game in the head with a rock killed them. As modern hunters, we know why lung/heart shots kill and why CNS shots incapacitate. The problem still lies with knowing where within in a specific animal they are...... and hitting them there with the appropriate weapon.