unfortunately, a reality of lead poison- Condors

[thorn726]

well dont get to upset, i dont have a big ban lead argument here, but there is some info i saw recently of interest.

no, it's not lead on the ground, but it has to do with hunting and Condors.

i'm just gonna ask that if you do hunt in an area with Condors,PLEASE either make sure you remove your kill, or use non lead ammo... please read below for more info.., ill put some links at the bottom

Or just be ornery and say that the largest bird in the world's days are over, tough luck, survival of the fittest, and attach all kinds of ideas where else a carrion feeding bird is ingesting lead from

Among the dead or sick condors encountered, lead objects were recovered from
the gastro-intestinal tracts of eight, and objects whose radiographic appearance
was consistent with lead fragments were noted in six others. The source of lead
has been identified in some cases as spent ammunition in the form of both
shotgun pellets and fragments of rifle bullets.

Condors inadvertently ingest lead from spent ammunition found in animal carcasses and gut piles. Fragments from lead bullets or lead shot have been found within the digestive tracts of condors 16 times in Arizona. Lead bullets can fragment into hundreds of pieces before they exit a target such as a deer or coyote. Since condors are group feeders, and only one or two lead fragments or pellets can cause lead toxicity, one animal carcass or gut pile containing lead fragments or lead shot has the potential to poison several condors.

How you can help
Arizona hunters have a long tradition of wildlife conservation. Arizona Game and Fish Department is asking for your help in continuing this proud tradition. The Department recently surveyed hunters and ranchers about their thoughts on condor management, and specifically the concern over lead poisoning in condors. Hunters and ranchers responded that they wanted to help, but requested more information on the topic. We responded by providing the public with condor lead exposure data and funding scientific studies to determine the source of this lead. We're also engaged in an extensive public education effort. Now we're asking for your help. If you hunt within condor range in Arizona (Game Management Units 12A, 12B, 9, 10, 13A, and 13B), please use non-lead ammunition.

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/california_condor_lead.shtml
http://www.google.com/search?q=cond...ient=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

 

[griz]

Are condors more susceptible to lead than other critters? I ask because it would seem that possums, buzzards, etc would have suffered just as much lead poisoning.

 

[redneckrepairs]

IMHO its the same scare tactics used to ban lead shot for waterfowl. Did ingesting lead kill some waterfowl , who knows , possibly . Howeaver there is only a narrow environmental niche where waterfowl has any chance of eating shot . It's a Manufactured issue . Nothing in the article as quoted says that the condors died from lead poisoning , nor lists elivated lead in tissue or blood samples of the corpses . Someone is banging a drum and singing a chant without providing any evidence whatsoever of harm .

 

[LawBot5000]

I don't buy it either. The only way that seems likely to me would be for a bird to find a large pile of lead buckshot and swallow some of them for use as gizzard stones. But even a heavy amount of firing (far more than the 3 round limit for hunting migratory birds) in a fixed location over many years would only lead to moderate amounts of lead at any given location. Even a dead animal hit by a shotgun blast isnt going to have that much lead in it. And besides, birdshot isnt likely to stay in a condor's stomach for very long because it is far too small to serve as a useful gizzard stone in a bird that size- even buckshot is marginal in the size category. I would bet that any shot the bird inadvertantly eats would get passed immediately and introduce non-significant amounts of lead into its blood.

Birds die from lots of things. Just because some of them have swallowed some gizzard stones that are opaque to x-rays doesnt mean they are dying from lead poisoning.

 

[Beatnik]

Possums and buzzards aren't on the endangered species list.

Besides (wiki):"Lead poisoning due to fragmented lead bullets in large game waste is a particularly big problem for condors due to their extremely strong digestive juices (Thacker, 2006); this lead waste is not as much of a problem for other avian scavengers such as the Turkey Vulture and Common Raven. "

Also says right afterward that a copper bullet program should clear it up, but copper isn't that great to be ingesting in quantity, either.

 

[redneckrepairs]

If that is wikipedia ( or howeaver ya speel it lol ) you are quoting you might consider finding a more reliable source . Just about zero credibility for them nowdays .

 

[hnk45acp]

We need to educate Condors better.

 

[EricTheBarbarian]

is it bad for condors to be ingesting steel copper lead or whatever metal you can think of? eating a bucket full of nuts and bolts couldnt be much better to eat than lead shot. they just dont seem too smart, and if theyre dying off, they arent first species to go extinct and make room for more adaptable and smarter species to survive. As far as eating metal, I know dairy cows are fed magnets to hold all old nails and other pieces of metal they eat while grazing in the same spot so it doesnt do damage.

 

[Lucky]

I understand that ducks eat lead because they use their beaks to stir up the mud on the bottom, and thus eat the pellets. Inside their gullet they've got gravel, and that gravel crushes all things up, including lead pellets. And I think there's a chemical transformation too, somewhere in there.

Otherwise a person could eat a chunk of lead and **** it out later, no problems, because the body isn't set up to absorb lead in it's solid form.


Do condors have the same features as ducks? Or is it a scam?

 

[Travis Lee]

Can I just ask the question of WHY we should take special measures to continue the existence of species which just can't cut it?

What makes anybody think we should prevent natural extinctions? What makes anybody think we CAN?

Species came and went long before humans came along.

Adapt or die.

What's the big deal?

--Travis--

 

[thorn726]

TRAVIS- RIGHT ON!!

at least Travis has the nerve to be honest and real, i can't argue with that.
Personally i am for the preservation of nature and especially grand wildlife such as the Condor- AT LEAST TRAVIS has the decency and nerve to admit how he feels- unlike most everyone else who will accept literally no evidence from anywhere that results in them having to change their lifestyle at all.

i wish i could bury my head in the sand, but i can't. or at least care less, but i do.

stuff like this bugs me, people making ridiculous assumptions-

If that is wikipedia ( or howeaver ya speel it lol ) you are quoting you might consider finding a more reliable source . Just about zero credibility for them nowdays .

you might have tried the links, there are literally hundreds.
why does this affect Condors in particular? because they are big enough to take big bites out of carrion, thats how they end up with lead.

or even better - not knowing the diffence between ingesting lead vs steel?
wow, the education system is failing much worse than i thought.

SURE it's easy to call the people who did the studies straight LIARS, but it's not very mature, if you read any of this stuff, it's pretty hard to deny there has to be some truth to it.
if you read any of the articles, or saw the tv show, the birds are getting lead from ammo. they've tested them thouroughly.

besides the possums etc not being endangered, i think the animal size has a LOT to do with them not getting poisoned, also they way they eat- teeth will not enjoy lead pellets while a tear and gulp animal like a condor wont notice- that's why condors are the ones dying.

i really dont think it is that much to ask people who hunt in a condor area not
to use lead but like i figured, the rude road is easier to take than the high road, even for supposed high roaders.
99% of people on here aren't affected in the least by this, Condor country is not all that big anyway, and shooting targets with lead doesnt bother the birds

really disappointing around here sometimes.

 

[Beatnik]

Thorn -
You gotta see things from the other perspective here.

I worked for a historic site around here in the mid 90's.
We were cleaning out the workshop for the first time in about fifty years. In the process, I found a small bag of DDT.

Well, I'm a gen-Xer, and based off of what I knew then about DDT from my upbringing, warning claxons started going off in my head and I had a little panic attack. Between me and my boss, we ended up dressing me up in an old paint outfit, respirator and goggles, just to get this tiny bag of the stuff russian-doll style into seven ziploc bags so we could take it to hazmat disposal at the dump.

Guess what I found out later? Humans can eat spoonfuls of DDT.

The preservation crowd simply pushed that argument way too far. Now, I don't trust anything they say at face value.

Not using lead bullets seems perfectly reasonable, and I wouldn't do it. But that's because, as you said, I read the sites, and they're not pushing this too far - yet.

 

[hagar]

It's just an underhanded way of banning ammo, making it so expensive only the rich can afford it. And even if a condor ate a bullet, it would just pass right through him. I swallowed a pellet as a kid, started casting my own sinkers when I was 12, reloaded and shot a lot of lead bullets when I was in my 20's. Years later I had myself tested for lead, and I was under the US average.

 

[Lucky]

Thorn can you confirm if ducks and condors have the same gastrointestinal set-up? I wouldn't think they do, but it's possible.

Otherwise, and we're not picking on you, could you provide the causal mechanism through which the lead is killing the condors?


I hate to be the party-pooper, but finding lead in a dead condor does not prove that lead killed the condor. Something like an entrance wound for the lead would provide a causal mechanism.

 

[sumpnz]

AZ was sending coupons for unleaded ammo to hunters that got drawn for the units mentioned. IIRC they were $10 off coupons for things like the Federal ammo with the Barnes X-bullets redeemable at Sportsmans Warehouse.

Personally I kinda like the idea of useing the Barnes X-bullets. Not becuase of ecological concerns, but because you can use a lighter weight bullet and get the same penetration as a heavier lead core bullet. That allows for a higher MV which helps flatten trajectory, and it helps reduce recoil. 'Course they're really bleedin' expensive, even for reloading.

 

[Lucky]

But the notion that using bullets containing lead for hunting deer is bad, you have to admit that's a damned slippery slope.

 

[stevelyn]

The lead poisoning issue for waterfowl was a fraud and so is this. It's nothing more than an attempted back-door ammo ban. Whack the rest of the condors and get it over with. Their existence makes the rest of our lives worse off.

 

[Art Eatman]

Lead ingestion as a cause of death is determined by tissue analysis. If lead is found throughout body tissue, well, that's the poison. Reportedly, that's why the call for non-lead shot for hunting ducks.

So, for condors, I'd want to see lab-test reports of analysis of tissue. Just finding a fragment of lead in the innards or in the excrement is not a proven cause of death.

To some extent, thinking about digestive systems, a buzzard is a buzzard, seems like. Why wouldn't there have been more dead buzzards lying around, if there are all these shot animals being eaten by them?

Just some thoughts...

Art

 

[Lucky]

And here's what I understand to be true now:

The birds pick it up from the bottom of the marshes, If you watch puddle ducks with their butts in the air, they are head down grazing on weeds and algae, sort of shoveling, sucking (hoovering?) along the marsh bottom. If the concentration of pellets is high enough in the marsh bottom, a bird will suck one in and swallow it. All it takes is one pellet to lead poison a duck.
In the duck's gizzard is a collection of gravel and small stones that are used to grind up the harder things they eat, so that their digestive process can break it down and absorb it (we chew, they grind...). The lead pellet is ground up by the action of the gravel and stones, in the presence of digestive fluids (enzymes, acids) which leads to the chemical formation of lead salts and organo-salts (complex salts) which can be absorbed by the digestive tract and ultimately into the blood stream. They accumulate in a variety organs and create the effects of heavy metal poisoning - symptoms not unlike pesticide poisoning - typical nervous system problems. They sicken and die. Swans feed like ducks, therfore they can be at risk, particularly in heavily hunted marshes.
Birds like loons pick up lead differently and while dramatic, lead poisoning in loons is not all that common, at least in Canada. The risk, however, to upland game birds is miniscule. Geese grazing in corn or grain stubble could pick up the odd pellet if they are grazing in a heavily hunted field, but that doesn't seem to occur, at least not to any significant extent that I'm aware of.

My comment about acid rain is a speculation that acidic rain will speed up the oxidation of lead pellets laying on the ground, with the resultant breakdown and absorption by the soil. Marsh waters are fairly anaerobic, meaning the oxygen content is low. this slows the degradation of the lead pellet, so it just lays there longer, available to be picked up by a puddler.

 

[MCgunner]

That's friggin' hillarious! ROFL!

 

[106rr]

I would agree that tissue evaluations have to be made. The presence or absence of lead particles in the digestive tract is meaningless. I suspect that the lead particles in the GI tract of condors are from eating dead ground squirrels, ducks, etc. They do ingest meat in large chunks torn off the rotten carcass of animals, so they could theoretically ingest a bullet fragment.
May I ask the more experienced hunters if they have ever seen a condor feeding on a gutpile? On a deer carcass?
Turkey vultures are far maore common in "Condor Country" than condors. In most cases the Turkey Vulture has assumed the ecologocal niche of the condor in most of the condor area. Please remember that the total biomass of predators and scavengers of all kinds far exceeds the few condors in existence. If tissue samples show that lead is in the tissues of the other scavengers, I would concede the issue on the spot
The steel shot issue has taken care of the problem with bottom feeding waterfowl. I doubt that big game hunters leave enough lead IN the carcass to make any difference. The size of a California blacktail most frequently means full penetration of the bullet.

 

[Art Eatman]

One lab test beats a thousand anti-hunters' press releases.

Art

 

[stickslinger]

I didn't follow all the links just read through the threads.

Does any one or any report indicate the numbers of dead condors found with lead as oppossed to those found dead without lead?

Finding lead in one or two dead birds out of a thousand or even a hundred should not dictate major changes in ammo usage in my opinion.

Now I believe that we will all eventually be forced to use green ammo, but there are plenty of other forces that will drive that that will be louder than the condor conservationists.

 

[PercyShelley]

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/california_condor_lead.shtml

Unusual lead concentrations have been confirmed in condors. It seems a bit premature to assume it's bullets; the study they link to states that that the evidence is "circumstantial," but I'll be darned if I can think of where the lead could come from. That's not to say there aren't other environmental sources of lead, I just can't think of any that would apply to condors.

Stickslinger, there aren't even a thousand california condors left in the world, let alone in the wild population. Thus, anything that is seen as a threat to the condors is immediately jumped upon. Understandably so, the california condor is a big, charismatic animal; which is to say that people will actually bother to conserve it. I'm not convinced that they're a viable species in these modern times; as I understand it, most of their population is manufactured in labs by cleverly removing the eggs from the captive population. When a condor sees that its egg is gone, it will go about laying another one, just like a chicken!

I'm sure you've all heard the old saw about Romans and lead in their wine. In truth, the practice of boiling wine in lead pots to concentrate it for storage and transport both predated and outlasted the Romans for the simple reason that that amount of lead in the wine does make it quite sweet. One can't help but wonder if condors and other birds find lead sweet. Birds all have sharp vision, and they can surely tell lead particles apart from regular rocks. Birds with rocks in their gizzards don't just swallow any old rocks either; they are highly selective and prefer quartz and other hard rocks that will last them a long time. Saying that the poor birds swallow lead pellets thinking they're something else reeks of BS, or at least oversimplification.

As for turkey vultures replacing codors, yeah it's probably inevitable. Condors don't just need lots of territory and conservation and love and hugs and care, condors are relics of a bygone ecosystem. Condors need a regular supply of large mammals that periodically drop dead for them to eat. Ever since we got rid of the mammoths the condors have been forced to make do with bison. Ever since we got rid of the bison, condors have been screwed; at least in North America.

Oh well. I'm fond of turkey vultures; they're clever, scrappy little buggers. When I volunteered rehabbing birds of prey, there was one particular turkey vulture that would steal my tools, untie my shoes and vomit at me. That's another story though, I suppose.

 

[stickslinger]

Interesting info, thanks Percy.

I also appreciate your thinking regarding "a viable species".

I'm very much a conservationist but sometimes we have to ask if conserving a particular plant or animal to the detriment of other species, including humans, is wise. I'm certainly not saying that we need to write off the Condor, just that sometimes I believe emotions and nostalgia play too much of a role in rule and regulation making that concerns endangered / protected species.