jakemccoy
Member
Firepower, I'm still waiting for your Plan B. I guess we can conclude that you're ok with the current system.
University response to NIU
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bogie
Member
Guys, some folks on this PUBLIC system might want to derail any activism toward a change in the status quo. We need to stay focused on "what can prevent this from happening in the future?"
Like others have said, CCing on campus is legal in Utah, and it's really been a non-issue except for the occasional op-ed piece complaining about "students packing heat" in the school newspaper. I'd guess less than 1% of the people at the U of Utah are carrying, since so many are under 21, and the general leftish lean of a college campus. Is that enough to be a deterrent or make a difference? I don't know, but at least people have the choice, and there have been no problems with it yet. Also, the U is a big, heterogenous public school, students are from everywhere, most aren't mormon, and a lot drink. It's definitely not the biggest party school around, but I think it's reasonably representative of a big state school.
jakemccoy
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jakemccoy
Member
UTdave wrote,
That's great. It sucks that it's impossible to prove a negative. Utah colleges likely may have prevented at least one mass shooting with their policy. We will never know, unless a deranged shooter flat out admits to bypassing a Utah college for an easier target.
That's great. It sucks that it's impossible to prove a negative. Utah colleges likely may have prevented at least one mass shooting with their policy. We will never know, unless a deranged shooter flat out admits to bypassing a Utah college for an easier target.
bogie
Member
All the more reason to contact administrators and faculty. "Hey, how can I/my children be assured of safety?"
Then, follow up a few days later with "Concealed carry should be an option."
Yeah, it's a multipart process. College folks should be able to handle the concept...
"Instead, we must continue to strike that delicate balance between safety and
openness. I believe we all agree that this is the very bedrock of our society,
one well worth preserving."
Exactly, and that checks and balance has been removed when you prevent a law abiding person with a CCW from following the bedrock of our society, the right to self defense. You either turn the campus into a police state, or allow the checks and balances the Second Amend intended. The current method of dealing withthe issue: send out prayers and text messages does not appear to be working....
openness. I believe we all agree that this is the very bedrock of our society,
one well worth preserving."
Exactly, and that checks and balance has been removed when you prevent a law abiding person with a CCW from following the bedrock of our society, the right to self defense. You either turn the campus into a police state, or allow the checks and balances the Second Amend intended. The current method of dealing withthe issue: send out prayers and text messages does not appear to be working....
yhtomit
Member
I'm sure if there was a shooting incident here at Temple University of the same kind (one killer with guns, ammo, and a willingness to go die along with his victims), the cops would be there shortly thereafter to help mop.
In the past several months, they've implemented a creepy "alert system" by which they plan to alert students / faculty if something esp. bad has happened -- seems like a terrible case of CYA to me. "What do you mean, we aren't acting responsible? We TOLD you that there was a crazed shooter in the building you were locked into ..."
Concealed carry on campus? Ha!
timothy
In the past several months, they've implemented a creepy "alert system" by which they plan to alert students / faculty if something esp. bad has happened -- seems like a terrible case of CYA to me. "What do you mean, we aren't acting responsible? We TOLD you that there was a crazed shooter in the building you were locked into ..."
Concealed carry on campus? Ha!
timothy
george29
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Never ask a liberal for a concrete solution, they don't have one and won't give one. When Clinton needed to order military action against some target, he committed the fewest amount of troops he could get away with, or he sent an F-15 with two bombs. JFK declared a quarantine instead of kicking the crap outa Fidel. Carter did nothing anywhere and when he did try something, it caused our choppers to collide.
Liberals are basically cheerleaders, and they are wonderful in office when things are calm.
Ask a liberal a question, get a sermon, but no answer.
We did this, we did that, we were going to try this in the summer, we disagree that changes are necessary (like fencing in the University, never mind allowing CCW).
So where is it going to strike next week? Colorado again? Wisconsin? Maybe California? Malls - check. Universities - check. Department store - check. Movie theater this time? Maybe a hospital? One thing we can depend on, it will happen again, lets hope some brave citizen with a CCW is nearby the next time.
Liberals are basically cheerleaders, and they are wonderful in office when things are calm.
Ask a liberal a question, get a sermon, but no answer.
We did this, we did that, we were going to try this in the summer, we disagree that changes are necessary (like fencing in the University, never mind allowing CCW).
So where is it going to strike next week? Colorado again? Wisconsin? Maybe California? Malls - check. Universities - check. Department store - check. Movie theater this time? Maybe a hospital? One thing we can depend on, it will happen again, lets hope some brave citizen with a CCW is nearby the next time.
Guy
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george29
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Guy
Member
I thought so
Firepower!
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I never said I have a plan B. I am not sure even understood what I wrote. Its simply same people debating for the sake of debating over and over again.
As some made a comment that I am not aware of guns, well think again. Not only I am lawyer authorized to practice in the US, but I also live in the most dangerous place on world where gun is like a toy.
I was simply being concerned for your kids safety who is 18 and hanging out in the CCW crowd of people where the threshold of getting CCW permit is 21. You think that is mature? Wait until you put 10 15 more years on and I will ask you the same question.
As some made a comment that I am not aware of guns, well think again. Not only I am lawyer authorized to practice in the US, but I also live in the most dangerous place on world where gun is like a toy.
I was simply being concerned for your kids safety who is 18 and hanging out in the CCW crowd of people where the threshold of getting CCW permit is 21. You think that is mature? Wait until you put 10 15 more years on and I will ask you the same question.
While we're squabbling over concealed carry on campus, which won't happen any time soon, how about this?
Absolutely no publicity whatsoever for the cowardly shooter.
No name, no nothing about these idiots other than a mention of "another loser used a gun on defenseless people" in the papers and on tv.
It costs NOTHING to implement. None of us need to know the name or anything at all about these losers. Bury them in an unmarked grave and go on. It has now gotten to the point that we are seeing copycat killers. Don't give them what they want--recognition.
In the meantime, press like hell for concealed (or open, for that matter) carry on campus.
Absolutely no publicity whatsoever for the cowardly shooter.
No name, no nothing about these idiots other than a mention of "another loser used a gun on defenseless people" in the papers and on tv.
It costs NOTHING to implement. None of us need to know the name or anything at all about these losers. Bury them in an unmarked grave and go on. It has now gotten to the point that we are seeing copycat killers. Don't give them what they want--recognition.
In the meantime, press like hell for concealed (or open, for that matter) carry on campus.
TCB in TN
Member
Completely agreed, as we all know how safe things like gates, metal detectors, cameras, fences, and bars make prisons!
So you feel it is just better to curse the darkness?
Serious man it is time to come to the light! I cannot understand the mentality of some people. I don't know how to stay highroad and describe what this makes me think, but I will try.
Sure it has obviously been proven that those 18 year olds are SO much safer being in a complete victim disarmament zone, where the only weapons are in the hands of madmen!
As was posted above, Utah currently allows for CCW on campus, and there have been few if any problems. Reality is that legal CCW, MORE guns in the hands of law abiding citizens is a good thing!
george29
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Except it is the liberals that run the newspapers and nothing sells better than blood & guts. These are the guys that wrote that we need to avenge 9/11 and then write how terrible we are for invading another country and how out poor troops are cannon fodder. They love it because they can't lose. All they do is wring their hands and write sermons, and make money from other peoples misery. The solution is to let these miserable people live their lives on their own, under their own rules and deal with the problems they created. All the rest need to populate those states that are sane and make certain they do not lose the majority. I made the decision to leave IL and not move to CA for a job waiting for me because it was a personal decision, and a sacrifice. Maine and NH, MT, ID, NM, AZ, TX, FL, OK and WY are all states that allow some kind of self defense. If we could overpopulate these and a few other states, the liberals would not be in a position to have their say with the second.
On the other hand, it could be that we are winning in the long run, Heller is one indication of this. However, until the conservatives run an equal number of media as do the liberals, it will be a much longer fight.
They print what sells. We share in the blame for buying the newspapers and watching the news that glorifies these a-holes. If they won't stop printing it, we've got to stop buying and watching.
I take back the part about unmarked graves; an unmarked grave can be visited. Cremation followed by landfill disposal is more appropriate.
jakemccoy
Member
cp1969 wrote,
You may have forgotten the Internet. The grass roots of the Internet is the first that cracked the shooter's identity at NIU. Mass media followed. If anybody starts proposing limits on the Internet, I'm not on board.
You may have forgotten the Internet. The grass roots of the Internet is the first that cracked the shooter's identity at NIU. Mass media followed. If anybody starts proposing limits on the Internet, I'm not on board.
bogie
Member
Wrong. FLAT OUT WRONG.
Guys, right now, you can bet that EVERY college in the country is scrabbling for ideas. "How can we ensure the safety of our students and faculty?"
We need to proactively start contacting administrators, faculty and the folks responsible for campus security, and seeding ideas.
Gun folks seem to want INSTANT 100% results. They wanna get a superbowl ring for successfully completing the first play of the exhibition season.
That ain't gonna happen. Not every school is going to allow CCW. But _some_ will. Or maybe they'll allow it just for faculty. Fine. That's still a win. And it's POSITIVE. So, and I'm sure that some of you may be getting tired of hearing this...
1) Contact administrators and faculty. Let them know you are concerned. "What is being done to ensure safety?"
1a) Get your friends to do the same. Grass roots, people.
2) Post some of Oleg's images around the campus. Get people thinking.
3) Now, a couple of days in, maybe on Wednesday, call up and ask if a licensed person can carry a gun. If they say no, ask why not?
And keep at them.
What is "flat out wrong?"
Don't hold your breath until guns are allowed on campus. If you do, you're going to get awfully blue. It may happen at some point, but this I GUARANTEE:
It's going to happen again, for the reason I stated--Losers want a place in the history books.
Take that reason away and these occurrances JUST MIGHT DIMINISH.
Don't hold your breath until guns are allowed on campus. If you do, you're going to get awfully blue. It may happen at some point, but this I GUARANTEE:
It's going to happen again, for the reason I stated--Losers want a place in the history books.
Take that reason away and these occurrances JUST MIGHT DIMINISH.
jakemccoy
Member
Firepower, I'm still waiting for your rough draft of a Plan B.
As for now, I'll take it that you're OK with the current system since you have not proposed one bit of a solution to this problem that's been around for decades. If you just admit that you're OK with the current system, I'll leave you alone.
The proposed solution currently is CCW on campus. I agree with this solution. You oppose this solution. So, the ball is in your court to provide a rough draft of Plan B because you don't agree with Plan A.
You said you're a lawyer. Lawyer training involves identifying and analyzing problems, but it does not involve much of coming up with solutions. I challenge you to take a step further by coming up with a Plan B. If you can't or won't, you're neither leading nor following. You should know what that means...
As for now, I'll take it that you're OK with the current system since you have not proposed one bit of a solution to this problem that's been around for decades. If you just admit that you're OK with the current system, I'll leave you alone.
The proposed solution currently is CCW on campus. I agree with this solution. You oppose this solution. So, the ball is in your court to provide a rough draft of Plan B because you don't agree with Plan A.
You said you're a lawyer. Lawyer training involves identifying and analyzing problems, but it does not involve much of coming up with solutions. I challenge you to take a step further by coming up with a Plan B. If you can't or won't, you're neither leading nor following. You should know what that means...
rero360
Member
Firepower!
so you live in the most dangerous partof the world huh? thats funny seeing how I was stationed at what many consider the most dangerous place in the world last year, FOB Rustamiyah, Baghdad, Iraq.
so you live in the most dangerous partof the world huh? thats funny seeing how I was stationed at what many consider the most dangerous place in the world last year, FOB Rustamiyah, Baghdad, Iraq.
jakemccoy
Member
cp1969 wrote,
You're talking off the top of your head. Research Utah universities.
Also, again, the Internet will reveal the shooter's identity if mass media doesn't.
You're talking off the top of your head. Research Utah universities.
Also, again, the Internet will reveal the shooter's identity if mass media doesn't.
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