Unpleasant encounter at a gas station

[Ed Ames]

The problem comes when they use threat fixation against their victims.

Two people working together...one dressed as a student or in business dress (slacks, dress shirt, maybe a tie), the other in your face or otherwise fixing your attention ("thug", crazy bum, even a girl with an unbuttoned blouse). One distracts, one reaches into your bag or opens your car door and grabs something off the front seat...or whatever. One you perceive as a threat, the other does you harm.

Not saying that'll happen to you, but it happens to a lot of people. Treating all panhandlers as a threat is OK so long as it doesn't distract you from other less obvious threats.

 

[easyg]

Okay, let me tell you what I know as a former "bum"....

Years ago I went through a phase where I decided to be a homeless bum.
And here is what I learned:


If the target appeared to be totally unarmed, I was going to get some money.

If the target showed or indicated that he was armed with a firearm, I was going to get some money.

But if the target showed or indicated that they had, and were willing to use, pepper-spray or a stun gun or a taser, then I was NOT going to get any money.


You see, folks who are totally unarmed tended to give me a few bucks just to get me to go away.

And those who actually showed me that they were armed would never actually shoot me.
I knew the laws as well as they did...
I would loudly state "Oh, you've got a gun!!! What?!? Are you going to kill me just because I'm poor and begging for a dollar to feed my children?!?"
This made the target look like a crazy gun freak who hates poor people.
I knew he was not going to shoot me.
And bystanders who heard me often came to my defense..."You're not going to shoot that poor man are you?!?!"
I would say out loud, so everyone could hear, something like "Please mister, I'm unarmed. All I'm asking for is one dollar. My son needs some food. Please."

No, you're not going to scare away a bum by showing your handgun.


But I never screwed around with those who had pepper-spray or tasers.
They are NOT afraid to use them on bums!
I learned this the hard way!
The target was long gone by the time my face had stopped burning and I was able to see again.

Don't ask me why, but most folks don't think a bum should be threatened with a handgun simply for begging.
But a bum who is pepper-sprayed....well, folks just think he got what he deserved.
It really makes no sense, but it's the truth.

I learned that more tools in the tool box is better than less tools.
It doesn't have to be either a firearm or nothing....
The police carry a variety of tool for a reason.
Sometimes lethal forced is needed, and sometimes non-lethal force is needed.

 

[Shadow 7D]

In a case like this, I just pay with a credit card, smile at the guy and say
"the difference between you and me, is the repo guys ain't caught up to me yet."
shake my head and walk off.
Last the a bum wants to hear is about how in debt you are.

Use their tactics against them, throw a story back at them
keep you head on a swivle and do basic stuff like lock your doors when you pull in (know your car, mine unlocks when it gets turned off, BUT if I lock it again (or leave it running) then only my door is unlocked) don't put yourself in a blind spot where you can't be seen or see etc.

 

[Sentryau2]

I'm just throwing this out there, when have you been asked for money by a goth or emo kid? Why do they get thrown into the same lump as bumbs lol If im approached and they are respectful I'll toss em the change I have in my pocket. I tend to try and keep a good 4-12 feet between me and other people. Wide hand gestures when your talking makes them have to step back. Stand straight and make eye contact. I tend to make eye contact with anyone who decided to look at me and I maintain eye contact until they look away. Be careful displaying a weapon even if your just putting your hand on it, I know several 1%ers and the like that would attack you for less. The main advantage of a weapon is lost when someone knows you have it. Its also not likely that a firearm being discharged would ignite the gas vapors, If it wont ignite a propane filled room then I dont see it igniting gas fumes outside.


And again why do goths get thrown in with the beggars? I take mild offense to that lol

 

[Hacker15E]

Don't forget that fuel nozzle can be a weapon if need be.

 

[rooter]

Posed by Bovice: If the guy had gotten aggressive at that distance, spray him with the fuel nozzle.

Deadly force because someone has "gotten aggressive"?

How would squirting fuel on someone constitute deadly force?

 

[itsa pain]

the main thing is not to be dumb enough to go to an area to get gas where you would find trouble. why would anyone do that? its not like the tank holds one gallon. you have plenty of time and range to get gas in a better place. why look for trouble then complain when you find it? that is what police do

 

[stumpers]

I'm just throwing this out there, when have you been asked for money by a goth or emo kid?And again why do goths get thrown in with the beggars?

I have never been asked for money by a goth or emo kid, nor did I say I was.

I was saying that I am equally dismissive of both panhandlers and other types I don't wish to engage, whoever they may be, so as to not regret the time I wasted on them hearing about their worries. I also specified "Type A" personalities as the general types I don't engage in conversations at: bars, restaurants, gun stores, shooting ranges, grocery store lines. And by Type A, I mean the loud and obnoxious ones who sole mission is to be the center of attention.

If I'm paying attention to someone I don't want to pay attention to, what else am I missing? Both strategically and otherwise.

 

[Onward Allusion]

easyg
Okay, let me tell you what I know as a former "bum"....

Actually damn good advice. Shooting someone should be one of the the last resorts and definitely not for someone begging for money. That's why I carry pepper-spray.

 

[Kleanbore]

The Understatement of the Year

Shooting someone should be one of the the last resorts and definitely not for someone begging for money.

The last resort.

 

[Kleanbore]

How would squirting fuel on someone constitute deadly force?

substantial risk of permanent eye damage.

 

[MtnCreek]

It wouldn't be much of a stretch for a prosecutor to claim you were trying to set them on fire.

 

[kyletx1911]

this idrive a big truck and always!!! always leave a way out, if not, look for cover.
for foot escape

 

[Orion8472]

easyg provides a very good point . . . and one that I have given a lot of thought about. Sure, you can carry, and should. But only pull your gun IF your life is threatened [and as a last resort], because, . . . what IF they 'call your bluff'? I will just continue to remain vigilant and if approached, be smart about my actions.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Orion 8472: But only pull your gun IF your life is threatened and as a last resort ,...

Good thinking!

... because, . . . what IF they 'call your bluff'?

And what if someone calls the police?

 

[Torian]

The last resort.

Yep, I don't know how you could get any more extreme than that. I've also never seen a goth panhandling.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.If the target appeared to be totally unarmed, I was going to get some money..

How did that happen without you getting slammed on your ear?

 

[Ed Ames]

He left out the entire prequal step (or his "pepper spray" category includes not messing with people he thinks will haul off and deck him), where he decided whether a particular person was an easy enough mark to be worth the effort. That step is where he decided not to panhandle off the group of five 18 year olds looking like they wanted to prove tough for example. He only went after people he thought were marks.

 

[Certaindeaf]

He left out..

Yes, I saw that. He essentially said if you were or were not carrying, you'd get took/taken from. I thought that was pretty funny as it includes everybody on the planet.

 

[MtnCreek]

It would have to be a pretty bad situation before I'd be willing to get physical with a bum. Bust a bums lip and his tooth cuts your knuckle open and you can spend the next few years wondering if you caught hepatitis, aids, ...

 

[Arkansas Paul]

It would have to be a pretty bad situation before I'd be willing to get physical with a bum. Bust a bums lip and his tooth cuts your knuckle open and you can spend the next few years wondering if you caught hepatitis, aids, ...

Me too.
Not just being scared of catching a disease from them, but I really don't want to get violent with ANYONE, especially somebody who is down on their luck.
I would never initiate violence with a bum unless they were doing something really stupid like trying to stop me from getting into my vehicle or something. That's where the pepper spray would come in handy.

And I don't give money to bums either and I encourage you all to do the same. If you're wanting to help someone out, that's a great thing. You should donate to a shelter in your city that helps them or a local food bank. Giving it to them directly rarely buys them food. With the shelters and food banks, you know you are really helping to feed hungry people.

Sorry, that last part was a bit off topic, but I think it's good advice.

 

[230RN]

[STRIKE]Certaindeaf[/STRIKE] Torian said,

I eventually developed a number of steps to follow when interacting with them:

1. Ignore, do not make eye contact, but stand your ground / do not move out of the way
2. Give them the evil eye, put your hand up, shake your head no, again do not retreat
3. In a strong, somewhat pissed off voice, simple say "No" or "Not interested"

Pretty much agree with that except for the ignore/no eye contact bit. I've had a lot of street contacts working in and around Denver for over 16 years --I must have some kind of "soft touch" aura about me.

I learned to constantly scan for the assessment/approach phase and I look directly at them and if necessary shake my head "no." If they keep coming, I put up my hand and again shake my head. I rarely have to go to my "command voice" as in Certaindeaf's point three, and say "I have nothing for you."

One thing I've noticed about myself is the tendency to focus exclusively on the approaching person and stop scanning around. Fortunately, since i retired, this kind of contact is much more rare, though they still happen.

I will point out something: The Police Department tends to minimize incidents like this in their jurisdictions. There was a period in about 2005-2007-ish where for some reason I would hear about many of these contacts from my co-workers, a lot of them pretty aggressive, but Division Two downtown seemed to be on a bit of a campaign to soft-pedal them. It wasn't until a couple of the victims were seriously injured ("they" were rushing people from behind and knocking them down before robbing them) that Denver started to crack down on "aggressive panhandling."

So don't believe it when they try to tell you that your city is safe.

And watch your six. The refections from storefront glass and automobile windows are a big help in this.

These are words "from the street." Before I got crippled up, I did a lot of walking around in the city, and I know it pretty well.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Most times with these guys it's very simple. I've done it with panhandlers for years.
You see 'em coming. 99% of the time you know what they want.
Yelling stay back is stupid.
Just wait til they get up to you, make eye contact, and just as they start to open their mouth, ask if you can borrow a dollar.
It locks their brains up, and they walk away.

That. Is. Just. Wrong

I can't wait to try it

 

[Arkansas Paul]

^ That is brilliant.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Certaindeaf said,

"1. Ignore, do not make eye contact, but stand your ground / do not move out of the way
2. Give them the evil eye, put your hand up, shake your head no, again do not retreat
3. In a strong, somewhat pissed off voice, simple say "No" or "Not interested"
..

Pretty much agree with that except for the ignore/no eye contact bit. I've had a lot of street contacts working in and around Denver for over 16 years --I must have some kind of "soft touch" aura about me.

I learned to constantly scan for the assessment/approach phase and I look directly at them and if necessary shake my head "no." If they keep coming, I put up my hand and again shake my head. I rarely have to go to my "command voice" as in Certaindeaf's point three, and say "I have nothing for you."

One thing I've noticed about myself is the tendency to focus exclusively on the approaching person and stop scanning around. Fortunately, since i retired, this kind of contact is much more rare, though they still happen.

I will point out something: The Police Department tends to minimize incidents like this in their jurisdictions. There was a period in about 2005-2007-ish where for some reason I would hear about many of these contacts from my co-workers, a lot of them pretty aggressive, but Division Two downtown seemed to be on a bit of a campaign to soft-pedal them. It wasn't until a couple of the victims were seriously injured ("they" were rushing people from behind and knocking them down before robbing them) that Denver started to crack down on "aggressive panhandling."

So don't believe it when they try to tell you that your city is safe.

And watch your six. The refections from storefront glass and automobile windows are a big help in this.

These are words "from the street." Before I got crippled up, I did a lot of walking around in the city, and I know it pretty well.

Terry, 230RN

No I didn't.
Torian in post #7 said that, not me. You misquoted me.