Unpleasant experience at airport

[Warlock7]

kind of messed up that we are resorting to calling our fellow americans thiefs and idots just because they work for the TSA or the airlines.

not very high road.

everyone's lives were made a bit more difficult since 9/11. one of the sacrifices we make as citizens during a time of war is enhanced security measures. imperfect as these measures are, they are as good as it gets considering the scale at which they must be deployed.

i believe everyone has a right to bitch about bad service, but making unfounded allegations of instutitionalized theft is just wrong.

Ya until it happens to YOU right????

 

[Kodiaz]

Actually we USED to have an absolute right to defend ourselves but it has been INFRiNGED. Which is why we can't carry in certain public places. If you look at the constitution the founders set up government with powers that when applied properly made them equal and opposed so that no one branch could railroad the others. Then we were given our RIGHTS so we could effectively oppose the govt. if it became unjust. The 1st exposes injustice if you don't know it exists you can't do anything about it. The 2nd gives us the people the ability to oppose an unjust govt.(granted because of infringement of this right opposition would require a major overstepping of authority on the part of the govt. because due to the current technology only all the gun owners in the country could have a chance of opposing the govt if became unjust) The 3rd well you can't oppose an unjust govt. if the soldiers are living in your house and can shoot you there. The 4th if said unjust gov. goes in and takes everything you have well I've never heard of someone winning a gunfight with their knuckles. The 5th and 6th are there so you can't be picked up for nothing and be locked up forever. If the govt is unjust and judges are unjust so get a trial by jury thanks to the 7th. The 8th is cruel and unusual punishment which is more of a restriction on the govt.'s ability to punish. The 9th says that the right written down aren't the only rights we have(i. e. privacy). And the 10th basically supports the 9th. But I'm no lawyer just a dumb A/C man.

 

[Mark in California]

It has been against the law to take MACE/Tear gas on to a commerical plane since at least the 1980's. The reason is because they fear the Mace can exploding and the tear gas getting into the air system and then getting to the pilots. It has nothing to do with TSA, but continued controled flight operations. Not even an on duty police officer may take Mace on a Air Plane.

 

[foghornl]

TSA=

T hieves
S tealers &
???????

Art's Grammaw was here. Please don't skirt around the language filter on THR.

 

[TexasRifleman]

These two websites, both operated by the TSA, contradict each other on the pepper spray issue.
http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Prohibited_English_4-1-2005_v2.pdf
http://www.tsa.gov/public/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_NEW.pdf

The mace I had was in one of the small palm sized units with the flip up cover, so you can't accidently discharge it. No claims that the can was unsafe :b

Both of these documents say the same exact thing, and have for over 4 years. The wording for mace/pepper spray has not changed, and December 05 was the latest revision, so there is no conflict in TSA documentation.
Not sure what you were looking at, but check again.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

Both of these documents say the same exact thing, and have for over 4 years. The wording for mace/pepper spray has not changed, and December 05 was the latest revision, so there is no conflict in TSA documentation.
Not sure what you were looking at, but check again.

http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Prohibited_English_4-1-2005_v2.pdf

On page 4 of this document it reads:
Can I take it? Carry On Checked
Mace/Pepper Spray No Yes
(One 118 mL or 4 fluid oz container of Mace or pepper spray IS PERMITTED in checked luggage provided it is equipped with a safety device to prevent accidental discharge. For more information on these and other and other hazardous materials, visit http://asi.faa.gov/passenger.asp)

Maybe you should check again.

 

[Cacique500]

I flew yesterday with two firearms and didn't have any problems. Declared the pistols at the check-in counter and waited for a TSA agent to take me in the back room and check them. I had two small pelican cases, one for the pistols (with a key lock and I retained possession of the key) and one for the ammo & mags (TSA approved combo lock - and I retained possession of the combo by opening the locks myself). He looked through both and did a cursory check of my bag and then everything was sealed back up.

I had all the regs printed out just in case but didn't need them this trip.

I also agree that a friendly attitude will help you along on your journey - though I had to wait 15 minutes for the TSA guy to show up, I was still polite with him and everything went just fine.

Oh, and if I every meet the 'Shoe Bomber' I'm going to beat the crap out of him. (Not very high road I know...but...) I can't stand stripping everything off to go through the metal detector, especially my shoes. I'm trying to walk with a computer, computer bag, jacket, belt, shoes, all the while holding my pants up until I can get to the area where I can get dressed again. Ugh.

 

[QuickDraw]

Just had a thought.
If you get athlete's foot from walking around in
your socks,could you sue?

QuickDraw

 

[TexasRifleman]

http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Prohibited_English_4-1-2005_v2.pdf

On page 4 of this document it reads:
Can I take it? Carry On Checked
Mace/Pepper Spray No Yes
(One 118 mL or 4 fluid oz container of Mace or pepper spray IS PERMITTED in checked luggage provided it is equipped with a safety device to prevent accidental discharge. For more information on these and other and other hazardous materials, visit http://asi.faa.gov/passenger.asp)

Maybe you should check again.

No, in the 2 links you posted, the wording is EXACTLY the same. Mace/pepper spray HAS BEEN PERMITTED forever. It has NEVER been prohibited in checked baggage. Both of the documents you posted say that.

You said there was a conflict and there is not. The rules on pepper spray have been unchanged for very many years. Not sure why you are having trouble with this.

 

[TexasRifleman]

It has been against the law to take MACE/Tear gas on to a commerical plane since at least the 1980's. The reason is because they fear the Mace can exploding and the tear gas getting into the air system and then getting to the pilots. It has nothing to do with TSA, but continued controled flight operations. Not even an on duty police officer may take Mace on a Air Plane.

In carry on, not checked baggage. You can and always have been able to check mace/pepper spray as long as it's less than 4 oz. This rule has been in place for many years. All the rules say is that it must be in a container with a safety catch to prevent accidental discharge, and in checked baggage.

The TSA regs pertaining to this have been posted about 20 times so far in this thread......

I am flying to Fresno this afternoon, with my 10gram Key Defender pepper spray, Sig P239 and 100 rounds of ammo, as I always do. I have printed out copies of both the TSA regs and the airlines rules, and I expect to have no problems. I do this 3 or 4 times a month. Never been a problem.

As mentioned, the best way to avoid the troubles is to know EXACTLY what the rules are, and to have printed copies with you. That way when someone starts the "you can't do that" you don't have to argue back with them, just show them where to find the correct answer. I've never had any airline or TSA employee give me trouble past showing them those documents. A couple of times they have done the "let me call and check" and after that it was always thank you sir have a nice flight.

Yes, TSA is not a very good organization, there's no arguing that. They are clueless beyond belief most of the time. But, they are in the system and I can either not fly or deal with it. I refuse to travel without a means to defend myself, so I have to deal with it.

 

[jason10mm]

Just some side notes for ease of getting past TSA screening.

Supposedly open toe sandals with a sole LESS than ONE inch thick (essentially those cheap beach flip-flops you had as a kid) are ok to wear through the metal detector. As usual, it is up to the individual screener, so if they slept through that part of the training you'll have to take them off anyway.

Wilderness Tactical makes a riggers belt with PLASTIC buckles. No metal to set off the mass detector.

As I fly quite a bit, I'm slowly aquiring stuff to streamline going through the screening process. Stowing my phone, pager, and keys in my carry-on while wearing a low metal content digital watch with no metal buckles on my clothes should get me through with minimal stripping required

 

[Skeptic]

I fly a lot. In this country and all over the world. I fly with Govt issued ID, Diplomatic Passport, and all of the bells and whistles that are supposed to make getting thru security easier. Not so.... it all depends on the TSA person at the security checkpoint. I have had my five year old son stopped and told that he would have to take off his Tevas so that the TSA person can check them out. They are sandals - no where to hid anything and they are so small that if you did hid anything it would not make a difference.

I have found that TSA folks are good and bad - some know their job and others can't find their butt with both hands. Same can speak great english and some not so well. IMHO, TSA is a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.....

Sorry if I offend anyone, but that's the way I feel.

 

[roo_ster]

...in short, the average CCWer doesn't have anywhere near the skills to take the kind of shots your assuming everyone could make...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to making an assumption yourself, that the LEO/Airmarshall can satisfy your damands as to skill level.

A fellow I knew during college got out of the Navy so he wouldn't have to balance a ball on his nose any longer. He then joined the Air Marshalls and went through their training program. He was not impressed with many policies/personnel/training in the AM/TSA, but one thing that stuck in my mind was his take on the training and the personnel.

He was pretty appalled at the poor level of training. He was taught to sweep all the passengers on his way to getting his weapon aligned with the terrorist. When he protested, he was given some lame explanation that did not satisfy. He recalls many overweight former city cops in his class, as well. Most got through the training.

After training, he was paired up with some obese former New Orleans cop in which he had zero confidence. Not because the former cop was large, but because he was incompetent.

He also had zero confidence in his superiors. The lack of support of TSA mgt has been documented many other places. He submitted many suggestions to improve AM effectiveness, none of which went anywhere. It was his opinion that the AM program was stood up to create the appearance of "doing something" by our politicos.

He has since moved on from the TSA.

 

[NineseveN]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to making an assumption yourself, that the LEO/Airmarshall can satisfy your damands as to skill level.

A fellow I knew during college got out of the Navy so he wouldn't have to balance a ball on his nose any longer. He then joined the Air Marshalls and went through their training program. He was not impressed with many policies/personnel/training in the AM/TSA, but one thing that stuck in my mind was his take on the training and the personnel.

He was pretty appalled at the poor level of training. He was taught to sweep all the passengers on his way to getting his weapon aligned with the terrorist. When he protested, he was given some lame explanation that did not satisfy. He recalls many overweight former city cops in his class, as well. Most got through the training.

After training, he was paired up with some obese former New Orleans cop in which he had zero confidence. Not because the former cop was large, but because he was incompetent.

He also had zero confidence in his superiors. The lack of support of TSA mgt has been documented many other places. He submitted many suggestions to improve AM effectiveness, none of which went anywhere. It was his opinion that the AM program was stood up to create the appearance of "doing something" by our politicos.

He has since moved on from the TSA.

This is completely reverse of my current take on the Air Marshalls and their training. As far as I know, their training some of the best, most advanced and most rigorous you can find anywhere for Law Enforcement. Hmmm....

 

[DarthBubba]

TSA Motto: One million officers not a single clue.

Vee have Vays to be making you Comply!!

Your papers now Juden!!!, now join Zee lines for Zee showers.(A quick look into our future under the TSA types), Their Motto: One million officers not a single clue.
Did you ask if any of the TSA monkeys if they had a copy of the supposed regulations you were in violation of. I would be willing to bet that none of them could repeat them back to you.
While all of this was going on did you notice a group of 13 middle eastern looking guys getting through security with bags full of knives, all looking a bit nervous?
Wow I feel a lot safer with this parade of morons we have in charge now don't you?!!

To Hell with them all I'll drive every where I need to go,

DarthBubba

 

[spacemanspiff]

Mostly just stupid people. However, when someone pisses me off, I'm more inclined to pick out their particular flaws then I would otherwise

but that kind of reaction is very juvenile. you may as well have called him a 'poopy-head'.

btw, as on the other forum you posted this to, i dont have any sympathy for your troubles with the airlines. although its come to light that small canisters of spray are indeed lawful to have in your baggage, you did not know that. you didnt do your research.
you also transported ammo loaded in the magazines, thats always been a no-no, and you should be grateful to the TSA for not catching that.

 

[obm]

Ya until it happens to YOU right????

as i said in my post, everyone has a right to bitch about bad service. but resorting to calling them names and making blanket statements like all TSA personnel are thieves is just wrong.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Rules and regs are one thing, common sense is another.

It's obvious in multiple threads about TSA is that there is a distinct lack of training and consistancy between airports. You can (and will) complicate your own travel by packing firearms/mace etc. and it pays you to do your homework, be courteous and allow yourself extra time to deal with the hassles. (Because it's GOING to happen)

A loose round (even a dummy) is a no-no. If you must have a snap cap is it a big deal to top off a loaded magazine with it?

 

[BozemanMT]

and people wonder why I don't fly
and it gets worse every day.
how stupid was the cop to not know what a snap cap was?
unbelievable. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Old Dog]

This is a distinct example of the type of post that not only does not add anything to the discussion, it is certainly not an example of "The High Road:"

Vee have Vays to be making you Comply!!

Your papers now Juden!!!, now join Zee lines for Zee showers.(A quick look into our future under the TSA types), Their Motto: One million officers not a single clue.
Did you ask if any of the TSA monkeys if they had a copy of the supposed regulations you were in violation of. I would be willing to bet that none of them could repeat them back to you.
While all of this was going on did you notice a group of 13 middle eastern looking guys getting through security with bags full of knives, all looking a bit nervous?
Wow I feel a lot safer with this parade of morons we have in charge now don't you?!!

So, DarthBubba, just how often do you fly?
What airports do you go through?
Have you personally had problems such as the one the original poster described?
Or are you simply one who parrots the negative characterizations of an entire group of people because you don't have anything original to say?
How many TSA personnel do you know personally?

Comparing TSA personnel to Nazi prison camp staff is absurd.

I'd hope that more people take seriously posts such as Dr. Rob's, skeptic's and obm's ... I fly regularly, with firearms, and as stated before, I just don't see problems with TSA or airline staff to the magnitude some would have you believe ... Just friggin' get to the airport early and act like a courteous grown-up -- believe me, it works.

 

[HankB]

Below is just another example, in my opinion, of another brain fart:

It's the sort of thing that makes you want to pack some "special" ammo handloaded to produce 150,000 PSI. When they "confiscate" it and use it in their own pistol over the weekend, they'll end up combing shrapnel out of their hair.

Dah, yeh thet wood be KoOl woodunt it! Hank you should be really proud of yourself for even mentioning it.

Why so upset, Glenn? (BTW, you might try using spell check on your response.) After all, you spent a good portion of your post denying that officials would steal from people under color of authority, right? Even to the point of "guessing" that anyone who would dare regard some of our wonderful TSA screeners as thieves had crooked & immoral tendencies themselves. (I guess Ann Coulter must be a thief at heart too, since she had a necklace stolen by a TSA drone . . . a necklace that was never turned in. And had the unmitigated gall to besmirch the fine reputation of government officials by writing about it.) Not content with mere disagreement, you called it a "brain fart."

I don't believe that ALL, or even MOST, screeners are corrupt. (Though I've personally seen them selecting attractive young women - and ONLY attractive young women - for a "special" check.) But since by your post and 26 years in Federal service you've apparently come to regard ALL TSA workers as honest, high pressure ammo lurking in a traveler's baggage should be a non-issue, since no official would EVER use his position to help himself to something that looked good. It would only pose a danger to the traveler himself who might absent-mindedly mix it up with regular ammo . . . but since he doesn't trust screeners, he's probably a person who, to use your terms, has

. . . disrespectful attitudes toward others, poor upbringing, low morals, thieving lifestyle, low self esteem and so forth.

In other words, he'd be a real lowlife anyway, right?

I only wish your unwavering confidence in the integrity of the officials were justified.

 

[beaucoup ammo]

All In All

As Dr. Rob alluded to, there are different levels of competence among TSA types. The rush to fill quota and (IMO) an unrealistic deadline to get airport security up to Federal specs following 9/11 contribute to this. You'll find good and bad as in any business.

My wife and I drive by choice, and fly only when it's a funeral. etc. that render the Jeep mode of transport impossible.

With shrapnel in the old bod and an orthotics devise as well, I know what to expect and plan for it. My wife always goes first, so she can sit down and read while I endure the drill.

Caci500 is spot on with his approach to transporting firearms in the "belly." Bottom line, best thing is to keep cool, consider the source and you'll get through a lot quicker than if you berate the "slower" droids.

Take Care

 

[madkiwi]

This is completely reverse of my current take on the Air Marshalls and their training. As far as I know, their training some of the best, most advanced and most rigorous you can find anywhere for Law Enforcement. Hmmm....

Your assessment on their training would be based on what exactly? A few MSM reporters doing puff-profile stories or the government's own press releases?

My understanding is that Scouts at a Jamboree get better firearms training.

madkiwi

 

[AZLibertarian]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to making an assumption yourself, that the LEO/Airmarshall can satisfy your damands as to skill level.

A fellow I knew during college got out of the Navy so he wouldn't have to balance a ball on his nose any longer. He then joined the Air Marshalls and ...was not impressed with many policies/personnel/training in the AM/TSA, but one thing that stuck in my mind was his take on the training and the personnel....

As I've said earlier, I am a captain at a major national airline, and have frequent contact with Air Marshals. Your friends experience with a "fat" former cop is directly opposite to my observations. Most have other LEO experience, but very few of the Marshals I've run across appear to be anywhere near "fat".

I don't know this for a fact, as I haven't trained with them, nor do I have any other LEO training to compare it to, but it is my understanding that FAMs are trained to be just about the best shots in Law Enforcement. For most of us, buying a gun right out of the box will guarantee that you'll have a lifetime of shooting with no problems [Tinker with it, or use aftermarket add-ons, and that's another story entirely.] Most shooters simply can't wear out a gun with normal shooting. I've heard, OTOH, that some FAMs are wearing out their guns because of all the training they do.

That extended training is one of the reasons that Air Marshals quit. They have to go to the range over and over and over again, just to keep their skills high. Couple that with what has to be the world's dullest job--where you get to sit on your bum all day, eat airline food, actively avoid conversations with others, stay alert but without having your head on a swivel--and it's no wonder that they've had retention problems.

I won't debate that the TSA hasn't had some start up issues with the FAM program. The program was spun up real fast. However, in spite of this, and the other issues with the TSA, it is a valuable program.

 

[roo_ster]

Good: Tampa, Bad: DFW

This is completely reverse of my current take on the Air Marshalls and their training. As far as I know, their training some of the best, most advanced and most rigorous you can find anywhere for Law Enforcement. Hmmm....

Perhaps things have changed since he went through. I wouldn't count on it, though. This is the same agency that insited its agents wear "shoot me" suits on the aircraft and would not work out a better way to insert AMs on to the plane without drawing notice.

I have had good and bad experiences with the TSA and their airline toadies. It is very location-specific. FWIW, DFW is a terrible place to fly out of WRT TSA. This is where most of my poor experiences have occurred.

One memorable incident occurred when we were traveling with my wife & then 2 month old son. My wife was carrying our boy when a DFW TSA flunky insisted she remove her sneakers. My wife being less than tolerant of bravo sierra at this time, hopped on the edge of the x-ray machine conveyor, stuck her feet out toward the TSA flunky, and said, "You want them? You take them off," while keeping hold of our boy.

I have since done my level best to do my part to bury the Wright Amendment, wish American Airlines ill, and fly OTAA*.

OTOH, the TSA in Tampa were the soul of propriety & professionalism.

I have checked firearms in both places. Again, Tampa was head & shoulders above the losers at DFW. I present a calm, reasonable demeanor and follow the regs to the letter. I also print them out to refer to, just in case. Even so, my attempts to minimalize difficulty are often thwarted by the ignorance or malevolence of the TSA/airline personnel.

Flying is even more of a pain than it used to be.

* OTAA=Other Than American Airlines. Airtran at DFW & Southwest out of Love Field are two good alternatives.