Untrained dogs are not necessarily a security enhancement

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Jeff White, Jan 18, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    12,625
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    Our neighbor's dog, a Shepard mix, hated uniforms. He'd go after the mailman everytime. Mike and I were sitting on the steps at my house, his dog nosing around the yard, when my Dad got home from work, in uniform. (He was a St. Paul cop.) The dog rushed over and started the vicious bark, my Dad's hand went to his Python and he said in his command voice" Call off your dog, NOW!" Mike called him over to him.
    Later, Mike asked my Dad if he'd have really shot his dog. Dad replied, "Damn right I would have, and he wouldn't be the first!"
     
  2. azrocks

    azrocks Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2016
    Messages:
    620
    As someone who grew up in a dog training business (including security dogs), I'd never trust a dog to defend my life. In my opinion, the main reason dogs are so effective as defensive deterrents is because most people are unreasonably fearful of dogs (which they sense extremely well). The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of dogs are unreasonably fearful of people. And the growling/aggression most owners attribute to bravery is more often than not fear-driven.

    Now Dogs... that's a different matter. Once you got a pack together, everything changes. That individual cowardice they tend to display during 1-1 confrontations goes right out the door when they're doing what they know to do by instinct... hunt in a pack.
     
    david58 likes this.
  3. david58

    david58 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    415
    Location:
    High Country New Mexico
    ^True, this!
    We have two dogs instead of one because a) we like them and would have more if we could, and b) they are Terriers and will wind each other up in addition to their normal "pack" mentality. I am glad folks are scared of big dogs, and big fuzzy Airedales can be fearsome (particularly the 100# black one). Because mine want a scratch behind the ear and your hot dog. Theater is fine by me...
     
  4. Panzerschwein

    Panzerschwein member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2011
    Messages:
    8,122
    Location:
    Desert
    While some pooches might be like "sup" to a home invader, I guarantee my two pitties (American Pit Bull Terriers) won't take kindly to some B&E goons.
     
  5. jimbo555

    jimbo555 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    1,247
    Location:
    Statesboro,Georgia
     
  6. azrocks

    azrocks Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2016
    Messages:
    620
    You have a black airedale? Where did you get him?

    The reason I ask: We had a black airedale back in the day who - from what I was told & remember - was part of a line that was trying to get AKC approval. What ever came of that effort I do not know, but that dog was one of those one-in-a-million special creatures with a heart as big as his size, and yes... he was pushing 100 pounds or more as well! They gotta be related. And yeah... he wouldn't protect much, though if you heard his bark you'd probably think different!

    We have more dogs than I ever plan on having again, so I'm not looking... just curious. If your dog's anything like ours was, I know he is highly treasured. Plus - he probably has a pretty good chance of causing fight-stopping damage just by jumping up to lick 'em! ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2017
  7. david58

    david58 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    415
    Location:
    High Country New Mexico
    You have my dog figgered out. But he would go down with the ship to protect me or my wife - very loyal, very protective of us.

    Got him from a kennel in Idaho, but his bloodline tracks back to a kennel here in NM. Have seen some info about black 'Dales from the early days of the breed, but AKC will NEVER register a black one, the must be black and tan. Is funny to me, coat genetics are complex. Red ones are supposed to be impossible, too, but I know of purebreds with long, strong pedigree that have a black saddle just larger than my hand (on a full grown dog) - with the right mate, I could breed that black spot away in a few generations. But, again, the result would not be an Airedale, per AKC, although the price on the all-red ones is quite high.

    Airedale is the perfect terrier, as far as I am concerned (Rat Terrier runs a close second) - great companions, tenacious, smart (sometimes too smart), and great family dogs. Have a friend that hunts cougar and bears with them, his buds that run Pits worry more about a Pit getting into a fight with one of the Airedales more than the bear or cougar encounter - the Airedale will whip the Pit, much quicker and almost as strong. But they aren't a fighting dog, they'd rather hunt and play, or lick your face. And that big black dog on the inside of the house is exactly the sight I wanted a visitor to see when my wife is home alone, 100# of terrier is more love than I'd want. And those teeth are BIG.

    And all they have to do is act mean....the rest is my responsibility.
     
    azrocks likes this.
  8. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Messages:
    10,141
    Location:
    SC (Home), VA (Work)
    In my opinion, untrained dogs are an annoyance at best, potentially costly in extremis, and downright dangerous at worst.

    Far too many people get puppies/dogs with no understanding of what it means to care for and train them.

    It is NOT torture or being mean to make a puppy/dog sit at the door before opening it, to teach the dog to heel and not pull on the leash while walking, and so forth.

    A dog needs training and control. If you let the puppy/dog force his way out the door instead of waiting for permission, for example, what you end up with is an animal that will take off at the drop of a hat and will resist control and recovery. Nice way to lose a dog to a traffic accident, or have an unfortunate surprise dog/human encounter.

    I've never trained a dog specifically for security duty. Don't have the slightest inkling how to do it. But, given what "security duty" may entail, I'd say that it's probably not something I'd want to "dabble" in without serious professional guidance. (I'm equating "security duty" with "guard dog".) Seems to me that there's quite a bit of opportunity for my ignorance to turn into a very poorly trained security dog...and that's potentially dangerous to both the dog and the people around him.


    Our current dog is a Pug, by the way. Happy RARELY barks...and personally, I'd be hard pressed to think of a breed of dog LESS suitable for security duty than a Pug, by nature.
     
    azrocks likes this.
  9. Sheepdog1968

    Sheepdog1968 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2009
    Messages:
    3,518
    Location:
    CA
    All I hope our dog will do is bark. The rest is on me and my wife. Still to young a pup yet to know. The same breed dogs we had growing up barked so I'm optimistic that will happen.
     
    david58 likes this.
  10. red rick

    red rick Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    2,160
    Location:
    Virginia
    I remember as a kid , a man that lived about 1/4 mile from us had a German Shepherd that he keep in a tall fenced pin and when we would walk buy he would bark at us . I was scared of that dog . Well he started getting out of his pin and he liked hanging around my house and me when he escaped and he did it so much that the owner asked my mother if we wanted him . We took him and back then there were no leash laws that I know of and he would follow me every morning on my paper route . He protected me from a dog that bit my collection book out of my hand and he protected my friends and me from a strange man that looked like he was following us one day . He chased the man up a long wide pipe that crossed the river and keep him there until we got out of sight .

    My dad owned a Texaco gas station and it was getting broken into a lot , so he took the dog there at night . I remember one night that the Police called my dad and said that someone had broke into his station and they needed him to come and get the dog so they could arrest the thief . They said the dog had him treed up the tire rack and the dog would not let them in . How or why he let the thief in I don't know , but he didn't let him leave .

    I have had 3 German Shepherd's since and all had a natural protective instinct . I remember my brother was coming over , I didn't have the door locked and I was getting dressed when my brother showed up . I had a female German Shepherd that was as sweet as she could be . I was still in my bedroom when I heard my dog barking and my brother talking to her at the door . He cracked the door and put his finger in to pet her and she nipped his finger , but once I let him in she was loving on him .

    My first Shepherd as a adult , my kid was in the backyard playing with his friends and I was out there with them . They had some plastic swords and were sword fighting . One of the kids wanted me to play so I got a sword and as soon as we started sword fighting my Shepherd nipped him on the leg . It didn't break the skin , but I took him home and told his mother about it .

    My last Shepherd I would let out of the backyard when I would wash my truck and he would set like a sheepdog watching my back . He would not make a sound or move at people walking up the road unless they looked over , he would bark and if they stopped he would stand and bark , but once they started walking again he would set back down .

    They are all gone now and sometimes I think about getting another one .
     
  11. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    Messages:
    2,205
    Location:
    S.W. Wyoming
    Well I did not report the long history of this. What you say is very correct. It was very common for the owner to come up short on the morning counts.:uhoh:
    We were talking at the end of counter one morning. A previously lost rattler began striking at fellows leg. He was not wounded but we were all nervous after that.:eek:
     
    red rick likes this.
  12. red rick

    red rick Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    2,160
    Location:
    Virginia
    Beautiful GSD xXxplosive .
     
  13. JeffG

    JeffG Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2017
    Messages:
    1,768
    Location:
    NE Wisconsin
    I use my dog's eyes and ears, and physical reactions to alert me. I take it from there. I'm the one with the advanced intelligence for a reason. For the most part, I don't want my dog involved in a home invasion situation. Dogs misinterpret situations all the time.
    An officer, or neighbor kid, or the UPS driver in my yard , does not need to be bitten, and I don't want an officer to be forced to shoot my dog.For the most part, I use the command "quiet" to keep the dog from raising the roof anytime people show up.
     
  14. DeepSouth
    • Contributing Member

    DeepSouth Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,890
    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    I have two dogs, the outside dog (a mut) is very reliable. She barks at everything, or nothing. the inside dog will sleep through a home invasion during a hurricane, or bark at a fly depending on his mood.

    The outside dog is likely at least somewhat of a deterrent, though not much of one. The inside dog could be a warning, or not, he would LIKELY be in the way in the event of an invasion. Having to worry about steeping on/tripping over him would be his biggest contribution.

    I've likely commented in the past about having a dog as part of my "security system" but I'm aware that in reality, they'll quiet possibly either be irrelevant or a hinderance to me.
     
    JeffG likes this.
  15. RoboDuck

    RoboDuck Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    176
    Location:
    Tennessee
    A true guard dog is trained to attack and defend his territory with out the handler having to even be present . These dogs are purposely not socialized. Personal protection dogs are trained to obey a command to defend and are socialized . Untrained dogs may react , show aggression and bite an intruder/trespasser . Protection dogs can be trained to pursue and apprehend or take down the target . If properly trained the only time these dogs would go into attack mode without a command is if the handler is threatened . This is demonstrated in training and competitions like ring sport. 2 dogs are better than one for personal protection and dogs weighing less than 50 lbs can't take a man down like an 80 lbs + dog can .
     
    xXxplosive and Good Ol' Boy like this.
  16. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    20,241
    Thanks for clearly defining the difference between a "guard dog" and a "personal protection dog". Since you seem knowledgeable in this area, do you have any tips for finding a good trainer to develop a GSD into a personal protection dog?
     
  17. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    5,288
    Not all dogs can even become a good personal protection dog as he is describing, and many of the dogs that take best to such training have higher intelligence and more energy, a bad combination for a lazy owner that just wants a pet when they get home from work. The smarter and more energetic the dog the more attention they require without developing neurotic tendencies. The dumber happy go lucky dogs can receive minimal attention and stay sane, happy, and make great pets. Some people are okay for something in between and like to think they have a really smart dog, just like many parents like to think they have smart children whether true or not, but many really are not suited to taking care of the smarter dogs.
    Think of it like mental illness, because that it what it is. The smarter dogs that also have energy need more continuous mental stimulation to not develop mental illness. While some dogs are simply not up to the training from the start and why only some dogs can become police dogs and not all can simply be trained to be one.
    Smart working dogs used to get real jobs, like herding animals all day, learning to direct their movements and control a flock or herd both on command and on their own. Not merely obeying but being smart enough to think in terms of risks and managing flocks and thinking independently.
    Take that same kind of animal and stick him in a living room or boring back yard all day and they can go crazy and cause a lot of problems. Which is why a lot of dog breeding today actually breeds out such qualities and focuses more on looks than breeding animals based on their merit as working animals. The biggest market is for a docile pet with perfect markings, because the perfect working dog can become a psychotic nutcase if not given a real job that stimulates the mind.

    People may think they want such a pet but they are often looking only at the benefits and not the cost in both time and ongoing maintenance of the animal. It is not a machine. It is not like a security system or a gun, and it also can be more of a liability you have less control over too.
    Your guard dog gets out and does something and you can quickly be both in legal trouble and financial trouble. A dog bite on a hand for example can get you sued for both immediate injuries, loss of work, even the value of their work for the time they cannot work. Bites a surgeon's hand who cannot work or has a lawyer say they cannot work for a couple years and you may be out more money than your house is even worth.
     
  18. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    20,241
    Definitely thought-provoking.
     
  19. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Location:
    TX
    I tend to recommend and prefer a layered, redundant approach to security. Some dogs are better than others. Some alarms are better than others. Some neighborhoods are better than others. Thinking "I don't need an alarm because I have a dog" or "I don't need a gun because I have a dog and an alarm" is likely a mistake.

    In most cases, criminals are looking for easier targets. I recommend keeping firearms ownership private, so that last resort is not really a deterrent. Dogs, alarms, cameras, lighting, beefed up locks and doors, and a personal schedule that is hard to pattern can be combined to make your home one of the least appealing ones in your neighborhood.
     
  20. RoboDuck

    RoboDuck Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    176
    Location:
    Tennessee
    A dog would need to be evaluated to see if it would be a good candidate for protection training . Outstanding obedience is a must .
     
    JeffG likes this.
  21. RoboDuck

    RoboDuck Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2008
    Messages:
    176
    Location:
    Tennessee
    IMG_20161218_083719238_HDR.jpg


    IMG_20160721_193046267.jpg
     
    old lady new shooter likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice