Untrained gun users ineffective at self-defence, US study finds - apparently not....

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This study states that guns are ineffective at self-defense. Apparently they didn't read the news today.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...effective-at-self-defence-US-study-finds.html




Untrained gun users ineffective at self-defence, US study finds

Guns are only a useful method of self-defence when the user is well-versed in target practice and high-stress situations

The study found that people without firearms training didn't take cover, issue commands to their assailants or shoot at the right time.







This guy did it exactly right it would appear so far. Shot at the right time, called 911 immediately, and rendered aid.





http://www.startribune.com/alleged-...victim-was-w-st-paul-teen-mom-says/320481982/




Police: St. Paul robbery victim had permit to carry when he killed armed suspect

The mother, Leeann Broadbent, said she has spoken with one of three other teens who was with her son at the time he was shot. She begged for them to tell police what happened.

By Chao Xiong and Paul Walsh Star Tribune staff writers AUGUST 3, 2015 — 3:26PM

A 16-year-old West St. Paul male wearing a mask and showing a handgun was shot and killed late Friday by one of two adults he was attempting to rob along with three other juveniles, St. Paul police said Monday.

The shooter, a man with a valid permit to carry a gun, immediately called police and attempted to give the teenage victim first aid while the other three fled, police said. The three were arrested but haven’t been identified. The Ramsey County medical examiner’s office on Monday identified the shooting victim as Lavauntai Broadbent. His mother, Leeann Broadbent, told the Star Tribune that he didn’t “have that kind of heart” to pull a gun on someone.
 
The study was commissioned by the National Gun Victims Action Council, and found exactly what it was ordered to find. The man who conducted the study believes that in order to own a gun a person needs training equal to or exceeding that required of law enforcement officers, as well as at least yearly retraining at the same level as LE officers. Of course, the cost of such training would be paid by the prospective gun owner, effectively limiting gun ownership not only to the wealthy but to those who can take the time for days of intensive training.

Read it here: https://gunvictimsaction.org/

Jim
 
I know he was just a teenager, but I really have no sympathy for dumb kids old enough to know better but still going out and doing stupid crap. I was a teenager too, and I was fully aware of actions and consequences. And since the other three kids were involved, I wonder if they will be charged with contributing actions that lead to his death.

Doesn't surprise me the mother is defending him with the "didn’t have that kind of heart” and "getting in a little trouble here and there, but nothing like this” kind of lines. But it does surprise me that the StarTrib reported the story without putting some kind of twisted hate spin on guns and gun owners.
 
Unless I'm very badly mistaken civilians have a higher percentage of hits to shots fired than Leo normally do.

I know there are many other factors and reasons for this, but the numbers alone should still dismantle that argument.

They're not worried about truth, reason, logic, or anything other than the desired outcome. Like Jim said they found exactly what they were told to find.
 
A 16-year-old West St. Paul male wearing a mask
and showing a handgun was shot and killed....
Rule 1: Live by the gun, die by the gun.
A threatening punk with a gun gets no age dispensation.

The Mother:
Hearing that the man who shot her son was legally allowed to carry a
firearm in public, Leeann Broadbent wondered Monday, “What are the rules?”
She said that “if someone pulled a gun on him, he would have dropped [his]”
rather than shoot.


Me:
See Rule-1.

Xin loi....





As an aside:
“In simple terms,” the district attorney in Portland, Ore., asked,
“if I see the gun, I’m dead?”

“In simple terms, that’s it,” Dr. Lewinski replied.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/02/u...-and-he-will-answer-questions-later.html?_r=0
 
Rule 1: Live by the gun, die by the gun.
A threatening punk with a gun gets no age dispensation.

The Mother:
Hearing that the man who shot her son was legally allowed to carry a
firearm in public, Leeann Broadbent wondered Monday, “What are the rules?”
She said that “if someone pulled a gun on him, he would have dropped [his]”
rather than shoot.

Me:
See Rule-1.


Xin loi....




It's a tragedy for the both families but the mother needs to realize this.



There are rules for a civilized society, your son just wasn't following them.
 
Unless I'm very badly mistaken civilians have a higher percentage of hits to shots fired than Leo normally do.

I know there are many other factors and reasons for this, but the numbers alone should still dismantle that argument.

They're not worried about truth, reason, logic, or anything other than the desired outcome. Like Jim said they found exactly what they were told to find.

Some fifteen years ago I recall (to my surprise) reading an article about an FBI study that was then just released which went into the percentage of actual uses of guns by civilians vs. LEOs (we all no MOST uses of guns do NOT involve actually shooting anyone).
The study said when police officers fire on a subject, in 11% of cases they either hit an inappropriate subject or miss. In comparison when civilians fire, the miss or hit an inappropriate subject in 2% of the cases.
I have forgotten some of the fine points but IIRC, the main cause for failure was situation awareness. Police show up on the scene late and are usually unaware of the number of players and who is a bad guy--especially in provate homes.
OTOH homeowners and those in defensive situations know who should and should not be in their homes.
Think about it: an officer receives a call to a private residence about an intruder and arrives. He spots through a window a man with a gun ... but is this the homeowner defending himself .... or the intruder, who is trying to take down a homeowner?
You decide. Can't?
Can we see how tough a police officer's job could be?
 
Congratties; they proved that training is worth undertaking for this exercise. I suppose that's useful data, as some training is entirely worthless (for instance, the ten-minute 'conflict resolution/psychology' primer mandated in Texas CHL classes).

That's it. Because they did not control for unarmed defenders, there is no way to claim the guns did not make them in some manner more effective. Forget the argument that the 'attackers' were not deterred by the guns or whatever, because that was never the data the study was seeking (it was to determine whether civilian handgun use was particularly effective).

Unfortunately, because they only tested for two data points (random, untrained folks vs. cops that shot on that range regularly), the most useful answers are unseen. We see the top and bottom of the learning curve, but we don't know how it slopes, yet. It would be interesting to do such tests during a multi-day/week self-defense training class, to see exactly how many hours of work correlate to the biggest payoff in most cases.

You'd think that people seeking to impose mandatory training regimens upon us to carry would at least be interested in a scientific means of determining what amount is necessary, right? ;)

The study also needs to have screened subjects for those openly unwilling to defend themselves with lethal force, firearm or otherwise (since those folks won't be in the police portion of the study, and won't be carrying a firearm in any scenario, regardless). It also needs to subtract points from those who did not fire, amounting to the lives of the 'friendlies' present on the range; the killer won't be killing just them if they freeze or are hit first. Likewise, scenarios with unarmed defenders should be included with the same handicap to the rules (all friendlies assumed killed unless they stop the attacker within the timeframe). Money or swag should have also been riding on each subject's victory, but I doubt they were given any incentive to kill or be killed aside from their ego or politics.

Much like the Charlie Hebdo simulation TTAG did a while back, they also forgot to look at a scenario with two or more defenders against one or more attackers. The very brief experiment they did showed a nearly insurmountable shifting of the odds towards the defenders, with only two armed. I'm sure the military/police have such data, but it is likely classified as obvious strategic data.

TCB
 
Those kids knew that very few people can legally carry and knew their own risk was quite small due to the primarily unarmed populace.

The kids gambled and gambled big and one of them was dead wrong.

The kids mother should be immediately investigated to see if her parenting or anything else in that household contributed to the event.
 
I don't remember which NRA magazine did so (I now get America's 1st Freedom, which doesn't have that page), but whichever NRA mag I got before swapping over to America's 1st Freedom had around 25 cases of everyday folks successfully using a firearm for self defense.

I assume that particular NRA magazine still does so?

Then there are the local cases I hear of in the news, at the shop, and from local police.

Repeat my experience by X number of you folks out there, and that pretty much blows that study outta the water (but I knew that before they had the study).
 
Wow, what a shock!

Yet another study finds exactly what they set out to "discover".

I look to motives in "studies" and "polls".

Here I see simple, linear goals:


The "untrained" need training.

Training requires standards.

Standards get used in certification.

Certification is regulation.

Regulation is a tool of control/registration.

Control/registration limits access.

When convenient, all access is denied.... 100% gun control!


Todd.
 
It should be pointed out over and over again.... that our news media these days can be counted on to provide distraction instead of useful information on most any topic. Making a "study" a news item is the height of BS, but it's done all the time. Any point of view or outlook can be bolstered by a study purposely designed to highlight that opinion -yet the general public allows itself to be manipulated by this stuff all too often.

As far as the family of that young robber... maybe he'd still be alive if they actually knew who he was running with and what kinds of things they were doing -before it came to this.


When I was a cop I was asked on many occasions by parents about how to know these things... My usual reply was to take a close look at his/her friends and actually take some time to talk to your kids, listening for attitudes and opinions that might indicate "street life". Put simply if you don't raise your kids someone else will -if they learn on the street they're in mortal danger from a variety of directions (drugs just one of many very bad possibillites....).
 
Seems like this Dr. Lewinski sucks.
Oh?
Explain please....

Lewinski is of the school of thought that police should almost always shoot first and ask questions later. He trains police that if you wait to see if a suspect has a weapon it's too late and you are dead, so when in doubt shoot them a couple of times.

Many people, even some that support the 2nd amendment, think he sucks.

In war I have no issue with the "kill them all and let God sort them out" philosophy, but as bad as some of our cities are it isn't an official war zone.
 
Lewinski is of the school of thought that police should almost always shoot first and ask questions later. He trains police that if you wait to see if a suspect has a weapon it's too late and you are dead, so when in doubt shoot them a couple of times.

Many people, even some that support the 2nd amendment, think he sucks.

In war I have no issue with the "kill them all and let God sort them out" philosophy, but as bad as some of our cities are it isn't an official war zone.

Agreed, that's what I got from the linked article also. Officer safety is important, but not at the expense of the lives of the people they're supposed to "protect and serve."

No doubt some officers' lives have been saved due to his methodology, but clearly it sometimes costs lives on the other side of the badge too.
 
I think perhaps you should actually read some of Lewinski's work before you pass judgement based on a spate of articles designed to discredit some of the only use of force science out there.

If you carry a gun for self defense his work might someday be very important to you if you are unfortunate enough to have to use your gun.

Everyone who carries a gun for self defense should be aware that this move to discredit Lewinski's work is an attack on you.

I sincerely hope that if you are ever unlucky enough to have to use your gun to defend yourself that whatever deity you believe in endows you with the ability to read your opponents mind and gives you eyesight that lets you see everything at that moment from every possible angle in bright sunlight so that your use of deadly force decision is so correct that even your assailant's dear mother will hug you and tell you she understands you had no other choice.
 
The two police officers in front of the Empire State building were properly trained...how many innocent bystanders were hit by bullets or bullet fragments?

Some of you might be shocked what "annual police training" might actually consist of...I know MANY civilian shooters who do far better on the line. On the street? Can't say, but the American Rifleman Armed Citizen section speaks out every month...
 
This group clearly has one hard agenda, and no real facts. Most of what is on their site is opinion and conjecture, and their study isn't scientific in any way.

National Gun Victims Action Council said:
Gun Fact #1 Carrying a Gun Does Not Provide Self Defense

“Law abiding citizens have the right to carry guns to defend themselves” is the meme that drives our gun laws. Relying on this meme, laws have been passed that allow conceal and open carry, guns in public places ranging from restaurants, bars and movies, to churches and offices. There is pressure from the NRA and gun extremists to pass laws allowing guns on college campuses, on airplanes and to do away with gun free zones.

But the fact is that the meme is false, it is a fiction; carrying a gun does not provide any realistic possibility of self defense—the element of surprise always defeats the gun carrier.

The criminal does not approach and say “draw.” They have a gun to to the back of your head before you know they are there. And you will not dare move as they take both your money and your gun.

President Regan was surrounded by secret servicemen and local police carrying guns and looking for trouble. A would be assassin with a $45 handgun was able to shoot all six of its bullets, hitting four people including Regan, Jim Brady (his press secretary) and two officers before bring subdued. (Imagine how many people would have been hit if they had had a semi-automatic handgun.)

Police officers carry guns, yet 40% of all gun homicides of Police officers are due to ambushes or being surprised by suspects with firearms. (Johnson, USA TODAY, 8/25/2011).

Just recently, on August 13, 2012, two armed police officers were wounded and one murdered at College Station Texas. The shooter started shooting when a constable serving an eviction notice approached his house. On August 16, 2012, two armed Louisiana police officers on patrol were killed and two wounded in a trailer park ambush.

Carrying a gun in public does not provide self defense.

Enabling insane gun laws to be passed and sane gun laws to be rejected on the basis of a fictional meme is tragic; it is time to end it.
 
At my local indoor pistol range you see all kinds of people and all kinds of shooters. They only allow slow bullseye shooting, but the police who shoot there are mostly unimpressive. The civilians who shoot there range from embarrassing and dangerous to really impressive. The one group that seems to be consistenly good are the youg guys from the local marine base. At any rate, I would not look to law enforcement as the gold standard against which to measure shooting prowess.
Mauserguy
 
This last sentence make no sense to me.
"The study found that people without firearms training didn't take cover, issue commands to their assailants or shoot at the right time".

If you don't have a firearm why would you issue a command to your assailants? Would it be something like, "I don't have a gun, please just leave and don't shoot me.
 
"Unless I'm very badly mistaken civilians have a higher percentage of hits to shots fired than Leo normally do."

You are correct about the statistic, Deep South. You are incorrect, however, in implying that LEO are not civilians.
 
Of course, you have to first define the standard as to what is "effective" and what is "ineffective".

I would argue that for the civilian, non LEO self defense purpose of stopping an attack or intrusion, that firing a weapon, missing by a mile, and having the bad guy run away is "effective" use of a firearm.
 
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