Update: ATF Sucks!!.

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HIJAK IN PROGRESS

Let's take this to another thread so we don't veer so far away from SIXPACKs thread.

Sorry dude, and again good luck with the testifying.

WATCH YOUR BACK!
 
I think the hearing today went alright, I don't really know. I read what was a condensed version of my written deposition from August 31, 2005. I thought the hearing was too short, and without alot of pertinent questions being asked. The fact that the ATF wasn't there today, but will be allowed their own hearing at a later date bothers me.

If anything positive comes from this who knows, only time will tell.
 
SIXPACK said:
I think the hearing today went alright, I don't really know. I read what was a condensed version of my written deposition from August 31, 2005. I thought the hearing was too short, and without alot of pertinent questions being asked. The fact that the ATF wasn't there today, but will be allowed their own hearing at a later date bothers me.

If anything positive comes from this who knows, only time will tell.

So what did they ask, sir?

Thank you for testifying
 
I was only asked two questions, one about my drivers license, and one about how I felt it changed my perception of gunshows, all in all pretty irrelevant.

I'm very disapointed at they way it all played out.
 
Approximately 530 LEO types at a gun show? How big was the crowd? Gelles says about 2300. Thats about 4 attendees to every agent.

Virginia State Police being shielded by hiding behind ATF.
Richmond PD also, is the county PD a different department?

Richmond police didn't know 530 fellow law enforcement officers were in the neighborhood? Okay, "Officially" they didn't know. But the ones in plain clothes knew. One would think one of them local LEO's would call the Chief or Sheriff and give a heads up.

So that's 530 plus 14 plainclothes types, about 544 total?

Then,
"According to the complaints he received, Van Cleave said officers were dispatched to the homes of the prospective gun buyers to speak with family members, asking for example: "Gee, did you know your husband was going to a gun show today? Do you have his cell phone number? Did you know he was buying a gun?

"If people weren't home they, in some cases, went to neighbors" to ask the same questions, Van Cleave said. "

I think since the ATF didn't show up at the hearing, you and the show are being minimized. Your statement was condensed, I'll bet the ATF's will be very specific, wordy and cumbersome. The questions asked at the hearing were sterile, not exciting, not probing or even curious. The ATF will have the last say in the story and you'll get no rebuttal.

ATF was wrong and they know it as does the Virginia Police. You folks in Virgina and the VCDL are seen as having too much power for civilians and attempts are being made to intimidate you into submission. If that is not the case, then the ATF and your police departments are way too arrogant and the civilians won't recognize that fact.

A lawsuit will be buried for years in the bureaucracy until the principals die off or move up the line of succession, as in promoted.

It's in the process of Being Buried By Bureaucrats.

Vick
 
When I wrote my last posts in this thread, I was still a bit bewildered about what happened. But I've had a few days to think over the events of the hearing, and the more I think about it, the angrier I get.


I wish to urge All the members who live in Massachusetts or Texas, to make sure that Rep. William D. Delahunt (Massachusetts), and Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (Texas), NEVER win another election in your states!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These two pieces of liberal garbage, turned what was supposed to be a hearing on the heavy-handed abuse by atf agents, into a hearing on a gunshow-loophole law. They totally derailed any attempt at finding out the truth about the events of August 13-14, 2005.

If you folks from Massachusetts or Texas EVER cared about your 2nd Ammendment Right, you will take action. Delahunt in particular, expressed the desire to increase the atf's role at gunshows, and all gun purchases in general.

People from Massachusetts and Texas, it's up to you.................................
 
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I was at the show on Sat. but I don't recall seeing a large police presence.530 seems like an awful lot.Were they uniformed or plainclothes?It seemed like there were more cop cars outside than nornal.Of course I was busy looking at guns and not paying much attention to the people.Was there from 9-1.
 
Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers

By Jeff Johnson
Feb 20, 2006
(CNSNews.com) - Agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), allegedly acting without warrants or legislative authority to do so, seized firearms from at least 50 gun show patrons in Virginia according to congressional testimony and an agency document made public Wednesday. Witnesses also testified that African-American and female gun buyers in Richmond, Va., and Pittsburgh, Pa., were profiled based on their race or sex and some in Pittsburgh were threatened with arrest by ATF agents for alleged actions that are not violations of law.
Rep. Howard Coble (R-N.C.) chairs the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, which has jurisdiction over ATF. While he supports the agency's mission, Coble questions some of its tactics.

"ATF reports that 206 [gun show] participants were stopped and interviewed while it confiscated firearms from another 50 participants," Coble said, referring to gun shows in Richmond, Va. "Although most of the firearms were ultimately returned, the purchasers were notified via official letter from ATF that [they] were ordered to appear at the local ATF office to discuss their transactions. In addition, the letter explained that failure to appear could result in an arrest warrant being issued for the alleged charges."

The form letter had blanks for the name of the gun show patron and the date and time they were ordered to appear at the ATF field office, but cited no authority for the gun confiscations or the mandatory office visits.

"An investigation has revealed that you may have violated Title 18 U.S.C. Section 924(a)(1)(A), a crime punishable by imprisonment for up to five years," the letter began. The U.S. Code citation refers, in this instance, to knowingly making a false statement on the ATF Form 4473 "Firearms Transaction Record Part I - Over-The-Counter," which is completed for each firearm purchased from a federally licensed firearms dealer (FFL).

"The firearm that you purchased is being taken into ATF custody," the letter continued, citing no authority for the seizure.

Rep. Bobby Scott (D-Va.) said the ATF letter and the reported interrogation of lawful gun buyers raise "serious questions."

"There's a way to have a sting operation that's legal. This dragnet, apparent dragnet, however, is not the way it ought to be done," Scott said. "You have to show probable cause and it can be done. But you ought not just stop people without probable cause and without any indication of guilt."

John White, a former law enforcement officer who is now an FFL operating under the business name "The Gunsmith," said female customers who approached his sales area at the Richmond shows were immediately targeted by the "undercover" officers.

"If a woman showed up at my table, she was surrounded by law enforcement," White recalled. "If the lady walked off and suddenly stopped, they would have bumped into each other. Their surveillance methods were pitiful.

"Every woman that makes a purchase, every woman who comes to my table to buy a gun was automatically [treated as] a straw purchaser," White said. (A "straw purchaser" is a person who can otherwise legally purchase a firearm, but who does so with the intent to illegally provide it to an ineligible buyer such as a convicted felon or an illegal alien. "Straw purchases" are illegal.)

As Cybercast News Service initially reported, ATF agents working with as many as 400 state, county and city police officers near Richmond, Va., conducted so-called "residency checks" on individuals who purchased firearms from the Showmasters Gun Show Aug. 13 and 14, 2005. Uniformed officers went to the homes of prospective gun buyers, while they waited for their National Instant Check System (NICS) background checks to be completed and questioned family members and neighbors about the gun buyers' firearm purchasing habits.

In a subsequent report, Cybercast News Service detailed that ATF had conducted at least seven similar gun show "sting operations" targeting Richmond-area residents since July of 2004. ATF refused to discuss any of the operations with Cybercast News Service and refused to provide any documentation in response to Freedom of Information Act requests filed by the sponsors of the Richmond gun shows.

Suzanne McComas, a licensed private investigator who has worked with the America's Most Wanted television program, was hired by the National Rifle Association (NRA) to gather information about ATF's Richmond operations. During her investigation, she learned that the agency had been conducting "residency checks" in at least one other U.S. city, but using different and "much more intimidating" tactics.

"At Pittsburgh, the Firearms Task Force there that's also headed by the ATF, instead of doing residency checks immediately, they're collecting the 4473 with the purchaser's address on it, then they go knock at the door about a week later and ask, 'Could we see the gun that you bought?'" McComas explained. "There's absolutely no process involved, there's no reason for them to do it. If you cannot produce the gun, they ask you for the sale paperwork. If you refuse to produce the paperwork they put you under arrest for a 'straw purchase.'"

Federal law requires licensed gun dealers to complete an ATF Form 4473 for each firearm sold through their business, in addition to any forms required by the state, county and/or city where they do business. Private sales between individuals, who are not engaged in the firearms trade as a business, are subject to no such federal recordkeeping requirements. Therefore a gun show purchaser could legally sell or even give the gun they purchased to someone else yet have no paperwork to meet the ATF's demand.

"You and I know that, but [a woman who bought a gun and then gave or sold it to someone else, both legally] probably doesn't," McComas told Cybercast News Service. "If she can't produce it, they arrest her for a straw purchase and her life turns into a living hell until she can prove otherwise. It's zero probable cause except for the fact that they thought it was a straw purchase because she was black and she was young and she was female."

McComas questioned not only the legality of the ATF tactics in Pittsburgh, but also the methodology.

"When I asked them what their criteria was for the people that they collected the 4473s on at the Pittsburgh show, the answer I got back was, 'If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck. That's all we need,'" McComas continued. "Translation: Under 30 and black, period. That's all they were looking for. Anyone who meets those criteria, they're doing a follow-up on."

She said that, as in Richmond, agents in Pittsburgh were also engaged in activities that gun dealers believe were designed to discourage lawful purchases by minorities.

"Anyone who was a minority, they picked up their 'tail,' if you will, and just followed them through the gun show. When they stopped at a table, the agents would literally stand on one side or the other and watch what they were doing. If they started to purchase a gun [the agents] would ask them why they were buying it, what were they buying it for, what did they need that gun for," McComas related. "It was ridiculous. There was absolutely no reason for it other than the color of their skin."

Rep. William Delahunt (D-Mass.) said he had not intended to attend the hearing, which was held immediately after a subcommittee vote on an unrelated bill, but stayed because he was fascinated by the witnesses' testimony.

"These must be the dumbest ATF agents in the entire agency," Delahunt said. "I am absolutely shocked that they could be that stupid.

"It's almost to the point that it's difficult to believe," he added. "I have never heard of an experience like the ones you recount, but you all seem to be in agreement. It's just mind-boggling."

Rep. Tom Feeney (R-Fla.) expressed curiosity that federal law enforcement officers would not know that the actions described by White and McComas violate federal statutes.

"Did anybody mention that it is a federal crime to deny women or minorities their civil rights?" Feeney asked. "Did anybody mention to the ATF that denying civil rights, including the right to bear arms, is a federal crime?"

Feeney suggested that, since ATF had refused to comply with the Freedom of Information Act requests from the gun show promoters, the subcommittee should request the information they were seeking. Coble noted that such a letter had already been sent.

ATF representatives present at Wednesday's hearing reluctantly identified themselves by raising their hands when asked to do so by Coble. They would not respond to the new allegations raised in the hearing, but referred questions to their press office. ATF officials are expected to testify on the issues raised Wednesday in a second hearing scheduled for Feb. 28.

Make media inquiries or request an interview with Jeff Johnson.

Subscribe to the free CNSNews.com daily E-Brief.

E-mail a comment or news tip to Jeff Johnson.
Emphasis is mine.

Link
 
All I can say is thank God for Samuel Alito. Keep contributing to the NRA and like organizations. They cannot lead the fight without the funds. These cases must be decided in the courts, not in Congressional hearings.
 
I think the ATF are fine, upstanding people - they're more than welcome to read all of my public posts and send me my tax stamp any time now... :neener: :evil: :D

All in all, I hope justice prevails. :)

Stand strong in that which you beleieve!

-Colin
 
Raises the ever interesting question of how many illegal firearms are being bought and sold at gunshows. I am willing to bet my 1911 against yours it's less than we are led to believe by the brady bunch.
Those "servants" (our elected officials) are a product of their own ignorance and are willing to be led by the "antigunners". They believe that gunshows are proliferating inner city crime. I am willing to bet you another 1911 that most of those guns are acquired through robbery bought and sold many times.
Intimidating lawful citizens at a gunshow is repugnant but making it hard to conduct a gunshow is what left wing policy makers want.
I say stick it to them just like it's posted on this thread (the media) hit them where it hurts. Call your congressmen and let them know you will vote them out of office if need be.
 
SIXPACK said:
When I wrote my last posts in this thread, I was still a bit bewildered about what happened. But I've had a few days to think over the events of the hearing, and the more I think about it, the angrier I get.


I wish to urge All the members who live in Massachusetts or Texas, to make sure that Rep. William D. Delahunt (Massachusetts), and Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (Texas), NEVER winn another election in your states!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These two pieces of liberal garbage, turned what was supposed to be a hearing on the heavy-handed abuse by atf agents, into a hearing on a gunshow-loophole law. They totally derailed any attempt at finding out the truth about the events of August 13-14, 2005.

If you folks from Massachusetts or Texas EVER cared about your 2nd Ammendment Right, you will take action. Delahunt in particular, expressed the desire to increase the atf's role at gunshows, and all gun purchases in general.

People from Massachusetts and Texas, it's up to you.................................
I would love to get rid of that woman, but she is not in my district and is pretty much in a safe district in urban Houston. She ain't going anywhere. She doesn't gain much respect around here. She is the one who asked the NASA's guys if their Mars probe saw the flag that the astronauts put there.

Tom Delay is actually my representative. I don't know what will happen to him. Whatever his other issues, he was one of the few Congressman I heard who said up front that the AWB would not be renewed.
 
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