tcsd1236...
The net is full of people who THINK they know what the proper law enforcement procedure should be, without having to do our job. Your post further down is additional proof of the armchair critic.
Is it really just armchair criticism? I think not…
He was a suspect as soon as someone called in a complaint against him
Explain to me how an anonymous tip about feeling uncomfortable makes him a suspect of a crime. Especially when the anonymous tip is describing a situation that is completely legal in that state. So, you are saying that if I call in and say, “Hey the guy across the street is making meth… <click>†then he is a suspect? He is considered guilty of a yet unproven crime, the definition of a suspect? Are you kidding me? Explain how that call made mvpel a suspect of something illegal. You can’t because what he was doing was completely legal.
You keep saying that a man is a suspect until your "investigation" proves otherwise. Wait a minute... doesn't there have to be a crime that he is a suspect of first? Isn't a man innocent until proven guilty? You keep making some connection with a crime that may not exist. That is why people get upset because you are constantly trying to prove some crime. Is that really your job? Is it really your job as a beat officer to try and nail every single person for a crime? Isn't that what they pay detectives to do? Seriously, how can you expect people to treat you with courtesy when you come by if you are going to try to make them into a criminal before you even listen to them...
Get real! I have no problem with an officer coming out to check out the claim, but if we followed FedDC’s doctrine you would have a warrant and SWAT out there shooting up the place based on that phone call. Come on man, an anonymous tip makes me a suspect? What is this, 1984? Caution, yes. Go over the top, no. Answer my question and tell me why he was a suspect and I’ll consider myself a better educated “idiot†net-citizen.
He was a suspect as soon as someone called in a complaint against him. Until his actions are investigated and determined, he remains a suspect.
See, that is the disconnect. You see a suspect but I see someone who deserves to be treated as an innocent. Does that mean you should walk up like a total idiot and put yourself in danger? No. Does that mean that you should be cautious and maintain a civil attitude, i.e. not grabbing him from behind, of course. Your safety has nothing to do with treating him like a criminal. In this situation the officers could have secured the situation in a manner that was respectful of mvpels legal right to carry a handgun and their safety. They chose not to and that is what makes me upset. He wasn’t a suspect because he couldn’t be guilty of anything based on the circumstances.
The fact remains that open carry remains an unusual event that draws public notice, regardless of how much you wish it to be otherwise.
True, but what does that have to do with the officers’ actions? That does not change the fact that it is legal. It doesn’t make him a suspect anymore than exercising my right to protest. Does holding a protest sign automatically make me dangerous?
No one died because you chose not to act. The officers you dealt with gambled that you were a law-abiding citizen who would not harm them. They took a risk in making that gamble. Many officers are proactive in not ASSUMING that someone is law abiding and securing a weapon whose owner they are dealing with.
What? I chose not to act? I chose not to murder another human being in cold blood and that is why they are alive? You mean to say that there was a chance that I would just lose my mind and pull my piece out on that cop to shoot him for the hell of it? Are you kidding me?
I chose to follow the law and get a CHL. I chose to follow the law and purchase a gun through an FFL. I chose to pull over for the police officer. I chose to follow the law in a string of events that led him to believe I could be trusted. You think I don’t deserve that trust because you put yourself before me. That is what pisses me off. You act as if you cannot treat people with some shred of dignity because they are all suspects and are going to kill you. Hogwash. Learn to be flexible and careful.
I’ll go a little off subject here and tell you why it is important to be able to play both sides. Read a little Machiavelli, specifically about how to cleanse your country of brigands. You see, brigands are vile people and to catch them you need someone equally ruthless. So, you hire the meanest Sheriff you can, a wolf to catch a wolf, and turn him loose. After a while, he has taken care of the bad guys but will get bored and start abusing the sheep. Then, the sheep will get angry and you will be forced to kill your wolf to stop him. Of course, this will endear the politician to the people, it is good to be the King. Don’t think that when enough innocent people have been killed in no-knocks that a few LEOs won’t be on that chopping block because they could not adjust. Machiavelli doesn’t write philosophy, he writes about the eternal truth of human nature. However, I digress.
Anyhow, I understand being cautious in a situation where a man is armed. No problem, disarm me. “Hey, Deavis, I’m uncomfortable with you being armed, I’m going to go ahead and take your weapon for the duration of this traffic stop. “No problem officer, let me turn around to make you feel more comfortable.†However, they didn’t offer that courtesy to mvpel, they snuck up on him from behind and laid their hands on him for no reason. Is it so hard to understand why an honest man wants to be treated fairly? He wasn’t threatening anyone or breaking any laws, so where is the PC? What about me? I pulled over, presented my “papers,†and was respectful. Why can’t I be treated with dignity? Don’t I deserve it?
Being a CCW holder does not automatically make you a good guy. It makes you a guy who has not been caught committing a disqualifying offense.
Ah, so it makes me a criminal who just hasn’t acted yet. Great attitude. Since you guys are so into the odds, check out the CCW vs. average citizen for crimes. You will see that the CCW is far less likely to commit a crime than the average citizen, surprise to you? Not to me, criminals don’t follow the law. Hell, if your statement is true then being a cop is no different than being a CCW holder. You just haven’t gotten caught committing a crime yet. It isn’t like it takes much to pass a police background check, come on. I can qualify to be a Sheriff here, no problem.
Criminals do not go around with a neon sign on their forehead identifying them as bad guys.
Yeah, and they don’t shop in a B&N with a gun in plain view either. Give me a time you nailed a BG for open carry. You work on statistics right? So, tell me the statistic that made mvpel a suspect that would murder a cop if they approached him in a verbal fashion…
[/quote]Tactics have to be applied equally across the board. Doing otherwise leads to complacency, as in the cases of the officers you dealt with on the traffic stops. Turning their back on you while having stopped you? Bad. Bad. Bad.Bad tactics on any officers part.[/quote]
No, no, no. You don’t have to amputate a leg when there is a small cut on the toe, do you? You don’t have to assault a man posing no threat in a bookstore. Why can’t you adjust your tactics to fit a situation? Is it that hard or are you just too lazy to take another man’s rights into consideration? It was mvpel’s right to carry a gun, they treated him like a criminal. Why couldn’t they take that into consideration? Too concerned with their own “safety†to care about him, that is why. There is a difference between complacent when approaching a suspect and going over the top. You can be cautious and respectful of his right to open carry. You just choose not to and think that you should get away with it. I say, no!
Problem being that different people get offended over different things. We can't do our job worrying about who we might have offended today.
There is a difference between offending a man and violating his legal right to carry a gun. If you tell me I’m a fatass, that is offensive. Is it true, yes, so I can’t really have a case to get mad. You assault me while legally carrying a gun… That isn’t offensive it is violating his right to wear a gun openly. You have broken the law you are meant to enforce. Don’t you see a problem there?
If an officer is conducting an investigative detention, it is because they are trying to determine something about you, what you are doing, etc, for a reason. If people are offended by that, they need to grow a thicker skin. We don't know who you are or what your intentions are.You consider yourself agood guy; we don't know that about you.
An investigation was not conducted. An investigation is gathering facts. Why couldn’t they “investigate†by watching mvpel with the two plain clothes that went in first? Why couldn’t they investigate through passive surveillance? If he pulled it, take action. They didn’t investigate, they violated. You think an investigation must involve confrontation. That is not true, IMHO. You can investigate many situations without making it into a confrontation. Too many officers feel that it is their job to confront a man and make it an issue when simply talking would solve the problem. Why is that? Explain to me why passively investigating would not have worked in this situation? Remember, he wasn’t waving his piece around or acting in a threatening manner.
Why is it that when you point out the law to an officer who doesn’t know it, he has to get all big in the chest and threaten to arrest you? Why? It is hubris, plain and simple. The man can’t stand to be told he is wrong by a simple peasant. WE aren’t good enough to know the law. “WE can’t understand.†Or is it that you can’t stand to be corrected by the people you serve? Explain that to me.
let me ask you this: do people try to kill YOU simply because you are performing your job? I thought not.
Do people try to rob you at night? Do people try to steal from your house? Do people try to rape your wife? Do people try to kill you for your wallet? We all are victims in this life. Welcome to where we all live, people try to kill us (regular people) simply because we have something they want.
There are bad people out there and I try to avoid them at all costs. Your job involves confronting them, bringing them to justice, and that means risking your life. Don’t expect me to be sympathetic to you because you are forced to confront bad people. You knew it going in and now you want a cookie for it? You have taken a job where you are expected to hold yourself to a higher standard than most men and risk your life for the safety of the community you serve. I don’t want that job. I’m too talented at other things to do that at this point in my life. I commend you for taking that job, but I expect you to live up to the job description. Nobody pats me on the back for engineering a great solution to a problem. That is my job. That is what I get paid to do. Your job is to round up the bad guys, so… um… Explain to me why I should congratulate you for doing your job and why I shouldn’t get mad when you trample mvpel’s rights. Explain to me why I should be ok with you going over the line.
You are only human, right? Well, when I make a mistake it costs my company some money. When you make a mistake, it costs an innocent man his life. So yeah, I am holding you to a higher standard than other people because most people don’t have the power to harm as many innocent people as a LEO does. Explain to me why I shouldn’t hold you to that standard.
