UPDATED***On Gun Denial
- Thread starter lilsean95
- Start date
- Status
Birch Knoll
Member
Ah, no. You made the statement; you back it up. It should be easy. I'll even point you to the proper place: 28 CFR 25.
That's not how the law works. If FFLs were responsible for retrieving firearms, the law or the CFR would impose that duty on them. If it fails to impose that duty on them, they do not have that duty.
Soooooooooo, they just log it on the paper work and are not responsible. Right, that's why major retailers will not sell a gun unless they get the "Proceed".
I guess they should just let their license get pulled, but that's not against the law.
One more time, "Can you find the law that states they are not responsible?"
CFR or Code of Federal Regulations may be good reading?
Thanks again
I guess they should just let their license get pulled, but that's not against the law.
One more time, "Can you find the law that states they are not responsible?"
CFR or Code of Federal Regulations may be good reading?
Thanks again
Birch Knoll
Member
Major retailers tend to take a very conservative approach, not surprisingly. They don't invest a lot of confidence in the individual discretion of their employees; they invest confidence in their one-size-fits-all documented policies.
I'm surprised that someone going by the moniker "JohnGault" has such a problem with the idea of individual discretion.
I don't know what you mean by this.
One more time, if the law doesn't impose the responsibility to retrieve the firearm, then the responsibility doesn't exist. Can you find me the law that states that YOU, personally, are not responsible to retrieve that same firearm? Why not?
Once again, what are you trying to say?
I look at cause and effect.
for example:
Major retailers will not complete the transaction with out a "Proceed".
The "MAJOR RETAILERS" who, in "FACT", sell "MOST" of the guns, will not complete the "TRANSACTION".
Get it?
The NICS "Instant" is the "I" part, understand?
Do you think a 30 day "DELAY" is "INSTANT"?
Thanks again
"The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it.
Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are the constitutional
rights secure.”
Albert Einstein
for example:
Major retailers will not complete the transaction with out a "Proceed".
The "MAJOR RETAILERS" who, in "FACT", sell "MOST" of the guns, will not complete the "TRANSACTION".
Get it?
The NICS "Instant" is the "I" part, understand?
Do you think a 30 day "DELAY" is "INSTANT"?
Thanks again
"The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it.
Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are the constitutional
rights secure.”
Albert Einstein
tnxdshooter
Member
Blame your local gun store or state law, not the FBI. If the NICS Examiner tells your dealer that the transaction is "Delayed" they will also say "The Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of this firearm on xx/xx/xxxx". The date given will be three business days beginning the next business day. Some dealers (usually large chains like Dicks Sporting Goods) will refuse to complete the transfer until NICS updates the status to "Proceed".
They had nothing to do with your background check. There is a difference.
Ive had to wait long enough for the gunshop owner to type the information in and submit it and it has always been an instantaneous approval.
Sent from Droid Incredible on Verizon Wireless
dogtown tom
Member
I've read CFR 478....there is NOTHING in there about the dealer being required to recover a firearm. If you were a dealer you would know this as ATF will cover this during your license interview.
The Form 4473 even provides a place (Question 21e) for the dealer to record that "After the firearm was transferred, the following response was received from NICS...".
When you can provide proof that Federal law requires a dealer to retreive a firearm.....I'll ship any firearm you want to the dealer of your choice.
Both ttolhurst and I are licensed dealers and have done numerous NICS background checks. We and every other dealer on this forum are very familiar with NICS. You, apparently are not.
Yes, the "I" stands for "Instant".....meaning that when your dealer contacts the FBI NICS call center he will instantly get a result on that transaction. It will either be a Proceed, Delayed or Denied response. If the transaction is "Delayed" The FBI NICS Examiner will state: "the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of this firearm on xx/xx/xxxx" This is called the MDI date (Missing Disposition Information date) which is three business days beginning the next business day.
Again, if your dealer chooses to not transfer the firearm after the MDI date...that is his option. It is also his option to complete the transaction and transfer the firearm. It does not convey some imaginary Federal requirement that he recover the firearm if the FBI NICS subsequently decides the transaction is Denied. You and only you believe this to be law.
Because many major retailers have locations in states that do not use the FBI for their NICS checks....instead using a state agency which may or may not permit transferring a firearm after the third business day. This refusal to transfer the firearm would not be the fault of NICs but your state law.
Birch Knoll
Member
Is it a fact that major retailers sell most guns? I'd be interested to know what that claim is based on.
Then your quarrel is with the retailer's policy. Do business somewhere else.
I am quite certain that the check was indeed instant; you undoubtedly received the response within a few minutes. It's just that the response you received was not a Proceed.
Still waiting for you to substantiate your claim that FFLs are required to recover any gun they choose to transfer on a 3-day-or-older NICS Delay if that Delay finally resolves to a Deny.
macadore
Member
I heard that.
As a dealer who has been in the business a long time, it is better for me to call the person who got a "denied" after a "conditional proceed" and ask him to return the gun than for TICS (Tenn Instant Check System) to call in the cavalry to retrieve it.
I have been told by TICS that if I did not retrieve the firearm in such a case, they would inform the ATF.
I have not had good luck with this and basically will not transfer on a "conditional proceed".
It is lose-lose for me. Either way, I will likely lose the customer. If I call and tell the customer he must return the firearm, then I am the bad guy. If I refuse to transfer on a conditional proceed, then I am the bad guy.
I am tempted to ask the head of TICS what they would REALLY do if I refuse to attempt to get the firearm returned.
Not taking sides, but we are in this business to make a living.
I have been told by TICS that if I did not retrieve the firearm in such a case, they would inform the ATF.
I have not had good luck with this and basically will not transfer on a "conditional proceed".
It is lose-lose for me. Either way, I will likely lose the customer. If I call and tell the customer he must return the firearm, then I am the bad guy. If I refuse to transfer on a conditional proceed, then I am the bad guy.
I am tempted to ask the head of TICS what they would REALLY do if I refuse to attempt to get the firearm returned.
Not taking sides, but we are in this business to make a living.
bikemutt
Member
Of course it's easy for me to say this since I'm not a gun dealer but, I would think if you post your policy clearly so the buyer knows in advance that you will not transfer unless you receive a proceed, the worst you could expect is a no-customer, which may be better than a mad-customer.
I don't see which part of "transfer" TICS doesn't get; if you lawfully transferred the gun it's not yours to go retrieve.
I don't see which part of "transfer" TICS doesn't get; if you lawfully transferred the gun it's not yours to go retrieve.
If anyone sells a gun in "Delay" how could they not be responsible if it turned into a "Denial"?
Yes your honor, I sold the gun even though I new the NICS and the FBI had a possible match in a criminal data base.
But I'm not responsible because I waited 3 days! LMAO
"We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality."
Ayn Rand
Yes your honor, I sold the gun even though I new the NICS and the FBI had a possible match in a criminal data base.
But I'm not responsible because I waited 3 days! LMAO
"We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality."
Ayn Rand
Master Blaster
Member
I agree no gun dealer around here is going to sell you the gun on day three without a proceeed although they legally could do that. Would the ATF lift their license?? That would depend on the individual agent's discretion, but they could suspend it for a bit while they investigate "Irregularities in your paperwork". The dealers I know wouldn't risk their license for the sale of one gun.
"John Galt" is the character in Atlas Shrugged BTW, not John Gault.
But hey carry on.
"John Galt" is the character in Atlas Shrugged BTW, not John Gault.
But hey carry on.
Birch Knoll
Member
Because that's the law.
This is a strange complaint from a guy who's annoyed because he had to wait 30 days for his delay to clear. This provision of the law is meant to provide relief from exactly this sort of unreasonable bureaucratic delay, preventing the FBI from simply sitting on their hands in order to obstruct gun sales.
MtnCreek
Member
Because firearm was sold per the laws.
Why would NICS not be responsible? They failed to deny the sale in a timely manner.
Why wouldn't (firearm manufacturer here) be responsible? They manufactured the deadly weapon.
Winchester ammo used in a crime? I guess they're responsible too.
BTW, Show me the law that gives an FFL the right to retrieve a firearm they sold. While you’re at it, show me the law that says you can pet your cat.
dogtown tom
Member
So much fail.....
FBI NICS will tell the dealer on a "delayed" transaction: "the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of this firearm on xx/xx/xxxx"
Kindly explain where the dealer violates the Brady law by completing the transaction after the MDI date?
Because there is no Federal law prohibiting such. You seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between actual Federal law and presumed or imaginary laws.
FBI NICS will tell the dealer on a "delayed" transaction: "the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of this firearm on xx/xx/xxxx"
Kindly explain where the dealer violates the Brady law by completing the transaction after the MDI date?
Imaginary Laws
Yes I see it now, my 30 day wait was a imaginary.
"--NTN-- will be delayed while the NICS continues its research of potentially prohibiting information on this open transaction and will advise you if it reaches a final determination of proceed or denied. If you do not receive a response from us, the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of the firearm on ___day/date ___."
............or the first sentence was read bay an FFL and they realized their licence depends on them not to do that. Their insurance company may have a discussion with them tooooooooo.
Look I am pissed about my delay. I just deal with cause and effect and I can't tell myself an imaginary law caused this BS.
Thanks
Yes I see it now, my 30 day wait was a imaginary.
"--NTN-- will be delayed while the NICS continues its research of potentially prohibiting information on this open transaction and will advise you if it reaches a final determination of proceed or denied. If you do not receive a response from us, the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of the firearm on ___day/date ___."
............or the first sentence was read bay an FFL and they realized their licence depends on them not to do that. Their insurance company may have a discussion with them tooooooooo.
Look I am pissed about my delay. I just deal with cause and effect and I can't tell myself an imaginary law caused this BS.
Thanks
Imaginary Laws
Yes I see it now, my 30 day wait was a imaginary.
"--NTN-- will be delayed while the NICS continues its research of potentially prohibiting information on this open transaction and will advise you if it reaches a final determination of proceed or denied. If you do not receive a response from us, the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of the firearm on ___day/date ___."
............or the first sentence was read bay an FFL and they realized their licence depends on them not to do that. Their insurance company may have a discussion with them tooooooooo.
Look I am pissed about my delay. I just deal with cause and effect and I can't tell myself an imaginary law caused this BS.
Thanks
Yes I see it now, my 30 day wait was a imaginary.
"--NTN-- will be delayed while the NICS continues its research of potentially prohibiting information on this open transaction and will advise you if it reaches a final determination of proceed or denied. If you do not receive a response from us, the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of the firearm on ___day/date ___."
............or the first sentence was read bay an FFL and they realized their licence depends on them not to do that. Their insurance company may have a discussion with them tooooooooo.
Look I am pissed about my delay. I just deal with cause and effect and I can't tell myself an imaginary law caused this BS.
Thanks
Birch Knoll
Member
Cause and effect, indeed. If the FFL you dealt with sensed one-tenth of the kook factor that I'm getting from you in this thread, I'd be shocked if they did the transfer.
There's really no point in discussing this with you any further; you won't listen to reason or facts.
§ 478.32 Prohibited shipment, transportation, possession, or receipt of
firearms and ammunition by certain persons.
Gun Control Act
Section 2. 27 CFR Part 478
Scroll down to......
(9) (d) No person may sell or otherwise
dispose of any firearm or ammunition to
any person knowing or having reasonable
cause to believe that such person:
and that my friends is a fact.
I think the "reasonable cause" part may be a little problem?
Oh no, now the Gun Control Act is "IMAGINARY"!
Go for it ttolherst you do make a good argument!
Thanks
firearms and ammunition by certain persons.
Gun Control Act
Section 2. 27 CFR Part 478
Scroll down to......
(9) (d) No person may sell or otherwise
dispose of any firearm or ammunition to
any person knowing or having reasonable
cause to believe that such person:
and that my friends is a fact.
I think the "reasonable cause" part may be a little problem?
Oh no, now the Gun Control Act is "IMAGINARY"!
Go for it ttolherst you do make a good argument!
Thanks
dogtown tom
Member
+1
.
dogtown tom
Member
Your "30 day wait" was not due to any Federal law but to a business policy....there is a difference.
Try quoting something applicable to your argument.
BTW my offer still stands.
.
Last edited:
- Status
