Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

UPS stole my gun

Discussion in 'Legal' started by jlg, Jan 19, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. jlg

    jlg Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    228
    Location:
    Abbeville, MS
    I recently made a trade with someone out of state. I shipped him a NIB Bushmaster 97S Carbon-15 Pistol. It's a 7.5" AR15 without a buttstock. They are very hard to get a hold of and not cheap at all.

    When the box arrived at the other FFL the gun was missing and a box of fireworks had been put into the box.

    Local Police and ATF basically told me that because it is just one gun they probably won't do anything about it.

    After just a couple of days UPS called me and said, "We have been unable to find your lost package and since you didn't pay for extra insurance we will be sending you a check for $100." Apparently UPS can steal from you and call it a lost package...even if the package was delivered with the wrong contents.

    What angers me more than the loss of $900 is the fact that no one seems to care that a firearm was stolen.:fire: UPS barely put any effort into tracking it down and figured it would just be easier to pay $100 and move on.

    Stealing a firearm is a felony. So basically we now have a felon walking around with a firearm that meets almost every "evil" criteria that the government wants to ban (short barrel, flash suppressor, 30-round magazine, pistol grip, detachable magazine)...and nobody cares.

    [​IMG]

    But, on a positive note, the ATF did tell me, "If he ever uses it in a crime we'll be able to track the serial number and know that it was stolen." So that makes me feel much better.:banghead:
     
  2. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,885
    I don't blame you for being angry. True, someone stole your package and most likely it was an UPS employee. But maybe not, I also understand the have private contractors that haul their mail.
     
  3. Mags

    Mags Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,235
    Location:
    Belgium
    Few questions.

    Did you ship the gun overnight?

    Did you read and sign the insurance waiver?
     
  4. Gordon

    Gordon Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    8,443
    Location:
    central Kali.
    When pistols are shipped isn't it a requirement they be overnighted so they know where the location always is within 50 feet?
     
  5. jlg

    jlg Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    228
    Location:
    Abbeville, MS
    Yes, the gun went overnight. I didn't sign a waiver but I didn't sign for extra insurance either.
     
  6. bubba15301

    bubba15301 Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2009
    Messages:
    378
    Location:
    pa
    you need to call the corporate office of ups they can track down who handled the package
     
  7. rscalzo

    rscalzo Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    860
    Location:
    Epping, NH
    Next Day Air automatically insures every package for $100.00. It is up to the shipper to add declared value to the shipment. It costs .74 per one hundred dollars. A total of six dollars additional.

    Once an item is out of the shipping container, there is no way to track it. One of the more popular ways to move out an item was to over label a box shipped to an associates address.

    That's why all major firearm's manufacturers and dealers do not use their own name for a shipping label. If it were a newer hub, video might be available. Old substation hubs do not have much of that equipment installed.
     
  8. Ben86

    Ben86 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    Messages:
    3,185
    Location:
    MS, USA
    ^This, take it as high as you can, and maybe consult a lawyer so you could threaten a lawsuit. You have to make big corporations like that take you seriously. Also mention mentioning their wanton disregard for stolen guns to the public, the media.
     
  9. TX expat

    TX expat Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    152
    That's crazy, but I guess it doesn't surprise me. There's no way to guarantee that you'll only have honest people handling the package you ship, which is probably the best reason to be sure and purchase the insurance available.

    I'd think that if you went high enough up in the UPS chain of command, you'd see some action though. Personally, I'd find out the name of the district manager and speak with them on the phone. Get names and take notes. If you don't immediately get a more positive vibe from that person, I'd send a polite, certified letter to Scott Davis, the Chairman and CEO of UPS. I'd very politely explain how serious you feel this situation is. I'd make some veiled implications that maybe if it was their money, they'd take a more proactive stance on finding out what happened. Most importantly though is to stay polite and level headed, because then they will have a more difficult time writing you off.

    Since you could have purchased insurance to cover yourself, I doubt that there is anything you will be able to do to get financially reimbursed, but you can at least make sure you've done everything possible to get someone investigating the theft.
     
  10. rscalzo

    rscalzo Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    860
    Location:
    Epping, NH
    It was never stated if it was shipped Next Day Air as required by UPS regulations. Even so, the shipped declined the additional insurance and was paid exactly what the contract specified.

    Was the box sealed upon arrival at the FFL? Knowing how the hubs work, the packages do not remain in one spot long enough for someone to open, replace the contents and reseal and relabel. Much depends on it's travel through the automated scanners in the hubs.
     
  11. TX expat

    TX expat Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    152
    Yes, he clarified that in post #5, he did ship it Next Day Air.
     
  12. bruzer

    bruzer Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    218
    Location:
    Grants Pass, OR
    That is absolutely terrible.
    I realize you must be very upset (I would be too) so please don't take offense with this information. This is copied from the UPS website:
    Declared Value
    Per domestic package and international shipment*:
    $0.75 for each $100.00 (or portion of $100.00) of the total value declared, with a minimum charge of $2.25

    Delivery Confirmation


    * Delivery Confirmation: $2.00 per package
    * Delivery Confirmation Signature Required: $3.25 per package
    * Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required: $4.25 per package

    I know that UPS automatically insures for $100 but for an extra $7.75 your package would have been insured for $1000. Then add another $4.25 for Delivery Conformation Adult Signature Required and for a total of $12 of extra fees you would have been insured for $1000 and had much more piece of mind shipping an expensive item like that.
    Once again please take no offense but when shipping expensive items it is important to pay that extra and get all the insurance and services available.
    Mike
     
  13. jlg

    jlg Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    228
    Location:
    Abbeville, MS
    I don't generally insure my shipments just because they are always packaged well enough that I'm not worried about damage and in all my years of shipping things nothing has ever been lost.

    It really angers me that they classify this as a "lost" package when there is no doubt that it was stolen. I understand that per the contract I can only expect $100. And although I don't think I should have to pay a company extra just in case they try to steal from me, that's the way it is. But I don't want them to just pay me $100 and drop the case. FIND MY GUN AND ARREST THE FELON THAT TOOK IT. If we'd worry less about making new gun laws and worry more about enforcing the ones we already have we might actually make a dent in the crime statistics.
     
  14. bikemutt
    • Contributing Member

    bikemutt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    4,187
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    I'm not so sure UPS would have accepted responsibility even if it had been insured. This is not a case where they damaged the payload by mishandling it, nor did they outright just lose the package.

    My experience with UPS has been that once the insured dollar value rises around the $1000 mark, they will only accept the package at a corporate drop off location and may also require the contents be inspected by a UPS employee. Once they accept custody of such a package and sign off on it's contents then they are on the hook for even the strangest perils.

    It's certainly a fuzzy area.

    I feel your pain and hope you get that gun recovered someday.
     
  15. tkaction

    tkaction Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2008
    Messages:
    226
    Im sorry but what were you thinking when you didnt buy the insurance.
     
  16. jlg

    jlg Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    228
    Location:
    Abbeville, MS
    I was thinking, "Surely UPS won't steal from me."
     
  17. medalguy

    medalguy Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    3,212
    Location:
    New Mexico
    Sorry about your gun, I know that really sucks. But from the UPS standoint, as a business matter, there's this:

    1. You shipped a product, doesn't matter what it was, and this created a contract with UPS.
    2. They automatically covered $100 with insurance at no cost to you.
    3. You did not declare the actual value not pay for any additional insurance.
    4. The product was not delivered per your contract with UPS.
    5. UPS paid you the $100 insurance which was provided with the basic shipping charge.
    6. UPS handles literally millions of packages daily. This is but one package. They complied with every term of their contract with you.
    7. I doubt anything will come of this situation which is very unfortunate but that's the reality of the situation.

    Good luck getting anything further accomplished. It's unfortunate.

    For everyone else, remember to declare full value on all firearms shipped and always insure for full value. I ran a business for many years and we self-insured but I was not in the firearms business. I think firearms are a little bit more likely to disappear in transit than most other products and we need to be prepared for this to happen. It does.
     
  18. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    10,679
    Location:
    California - San Francisco Bay Area
    [1] Tracking down a stolen gun and prosecuting the thief isn't UPS' job. That's up to law enforcement.

    [2] The OP didn't buy the available additional insurance, so UPS' liability is limited to $100.00.

    [3] This is a good lesson about why one should always buy the additional insurance unless he is willing to assume the risk of loss himself.
     
  19. jlg

    jlg Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    228
    Location:
    Abbeville, MS
    Again, I'm not at all angry over the fact that I'm only getting $100 from UPS. I chose not to insure the package. I took the gamble and lost. I don't believe theft should be classified as "losing a package" but that's the way it is.

    What angers me is that UPS committed a felony (they are responsible for their employees) and not only do they not care but neither does local law enforcement nor the ATF.

    It's scary to me to think about a felon running around with this gun.
     
  20. esquare

    esquare Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2008
    Messages:
    305
    Tracking down how a package's contents were stolen while in possession of the company is most definitely UPS's job. Who would ever accept anything else? Their job is to get items from point a to point b. If they aren't doing that, then they need to be working on figuring out what went wrong.

    This is akin to someone saying that it's not walmart's job to find employee's that are stealing products from the stores - of course it's walmart's job.

    Now, it's the LEOs job to go find the guy and prosecute him, but to think that UPS has no role in finding the felon employee is not right.
     
  21. raz-0

    raz-0 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    788
    Location:
    NJ
    Seriously, no insurance?

    ATF isn't involved in theft though, they deal in trafficking, if that. Have you tried the FBI since it is interstate commerce? Or local law enforcement? As far as you know, the driver/clerk you handed it to pocketed it after you gave it to them. The ATF certainly isn't who I would call regarding theft.
     
  22. Jackal

    Jackal Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Messages:
    4,531
    Location:
    Northwest Washington
    My rule of thumb: Whenever anything is worth more than $100, I insure it, regardless of the carrier. Treat shipping an expensive item like gambling; only ship un-insured that which you could afford to lose.
     
  23. rscalzo

    rscalzo Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    860
    Location:
    Epping, NH
    Was it shipped "Next Day Air"?

    Otherwise, the number of employees that the package passes can be in the hundreds. Few actually touch it and until it is actually loaded on the truck, it rarely stands still for long.

    Was it shipped from a UPS Center's Customer Counter? Was the contents declared as a firearm? If not, they can simply declare the package was delivered intact.

    Over 15 million packages a day...You bet I insure everything of value.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  24. jlg

    jlg Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
    Messages:
    228
    Location:
    Abbeville, MS
    Yes, Next Day Air
     
  25. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    18,910
    Location:
    northern california
    While I feel you pain for the loss, I do understand why UPS would treat it as a lost package.

    1. A customer comes into a store with a sealed box and declares it as a firearm.
    2. They believe him and charge for shipping using their policy for that item
    3. They deliver a package to the address on the label
    4. The customer (shipping) claims the contents of that package delivered are not the same as that originally packaged in the box.
    5. They don't know what was originally in the box and for $100 they don't think it is worth contesting. They just pay the $100 and write it off to being a lost package.

    Without having seen what was in the box to start with, how would any third party know what was shipped...that would rise it to a felony?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page