US allegedly using torture to interrogate terrorism suspects

[Drjones]

Not that it bothers me about what actually happens to such filth, but it is the mere principal: If we torture people, we are no better than terrorists or anyone else.

That said, I do not think we are "torturing" people. I read that we do use interrogation methods such as sleep deprivation, exposure to elements, etc. which are NOT torture. It is uncomfortable, but that is the point.

I also read that we have handed some of them over to governments and other organizations that DO in fact torture them.

 

[2dogs]

I would say that the possible good of extracting information to save lives does not outweigh the definite evil of torturing people

pax

I think I understand your position on morality here- but this is war. Is it less harmful or moral to machine gun, burn, drop daisy cutter bombs on the enemy than to make him uncomfortable?

Again, it seems that the enemy we are fighting set the ground rules with their barbarous acts, and these prisoners while possibly being innocent of actually taking part did help make it possible for the perpatrators to commit the acts.

As I said before- if they want to treated as prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention, let them fight the war as soldiers under the Geneva Convention and they will get all of the comforts afforded to real POW's.

 

[Gordon]

I was an army interogator for a while over in RVN. I always called them in their own tongue "comrade", intimated that we were all in this great struggle to liberate the oppressed together. Gave them blankets food and cigs unless they had a real hateful glint in their eye. Then they would sit tied up , blindfolded for a while till the glint faded and offered the same kindness ect. The worst threat was handing them over to Vietnamese(shudder). I see nothing has changed media branding US as butchers while butchers are "freedom fighters". Also guys, to get the "mayflower patch" when I got it in 66 you got the living crap tortured out of you by Hawaains down in Pananma. I'm talking slapped, shocked and put in two welded 55 gallon drums filled with cold water up to your nose and Hawaains who laughed squirted your nose between questions. We were (rightly) informed this werent nothing like enemy would do to us (ship us to Russia and North Korea for experiments) . Its allways the same; bleeding hearts let the enemy carve up their prisoners en mass and we make ours a little uncomfortable without ACLU representation and they wail away. When you hear for a fact that we are giving alqueida LSD and burying them up to head in a pig sty then come tell me "we are tortureing prisoners". I think Muslim law says amputate and gouge out eyes Nicht Wahr?

 

[Seeker]

If they're foreign nationals who are prisoners of the military, I won't lose sleep.

...becuase as they are less than human and therefore don't deserve basic human rights? Or because yoo don't mind if they treat our POWs the same way?

The US shouldn't beinvolved in torturing prisoners. Nor should we be "rendering" POWs to foreign intel services for 'questioning" that is slimy, weaslly and reeks of 'probable deniability' BS. If our Intel types want to torture prisoners (which is completely wrong) then they should do it themselves and have the spine to say they did it rather than passing it off to some third world lackey.

 

[nualle]

It is not a matter of a choice between ethics and realpolitik.

From Dr. Neil C. Livingstone back in a 1984 issue of the "Air and Space Power Chronicles".
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1984/mar-apr/livingstone.html

Any knowledgeable police or military official knows that torture is not an effective interrogation technique; more sophisticated methods exist today--methods not involving barbarity or defilement of human beings.

He's now C/B of GlobalOptions, Inc. His bio is here:
http://www.globalops.com/management_team.html
and will support his qualification to make the above statement.

The Realpolitik of torture is that it is ineffective at eliciting accurate new information. What it is good at is brutalizing an already-conquered enemy. The end result of that cannot help us... it either weakens (sometimes completely) the tortured person's capacity to be useful to his own community when he's returned to it or it hardens his resolve to be our enemy.

Torture is wrong because it's wrong.
It's also self-defeating, and so stupid. It is an emotional indulgence that only an overwhelmingly strong bully can afford.

I worry that we have commanders in the field who are ordering or condoning torture and soldiers who are committing it. How do you think those people will act when they retire, maybe to become LEOs?

 

[prhm]

I have to admit that even though in my mind I know and believe that torture is wrong, deep down in my heart I dont really feel any remorse for them.

Like the first post said" There was a before 9/11 and an after 9/11". I know that war doesnt make it right and they shouldnt be tortured, but deep down don't some of you that are speaking out against this feel the same?

 

[TexasVet]

quote:
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At times they are held in awkward, painful positions and deprived of sleep with a 24-hour bombardment of lights - subject to what are known as "stress and duress" techniques.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you think this is torture then you're a naive, uneducated sheep. This describes trying to sleep in a university dorm on a weekend. Torture is VERY easy to identify. It's when the subject is black and blue, with both eyes blackened and swollen shut, a broken bone or two, and testicles the size of grapefruit.
Welcome to the blinded by propaganda, liberal, alternate reality. Get a real life.

 

[Zander]

This is disturbing.

Hmmm...wouldn't this depend on the whether the "report" is accurate or not?

 

[Dennis]

Torture is wrong. Period.

In my mind's eye (if you will), I can hear the bodies hitting the cement...people jumping from the World Trade Center.

In my mind's eye (if you will), I hear little children asking why Mommy or Daddy "got killed."

In my mind's eye (if you will), I see the construction worker who helped rebuild that portion of the Pentagon where his son was killed.

I picture parents reassuring their children that everything will be all right--just before their airliner becomes a fireball in a building or a remote field in Pennsylvania.

Torture is wrong.

But I can't forget the innocent people who died, or those who killed them, and the organization the killers currently operate and support.

And I think of how I would use all the force at my disposal (as required) to stop someone from torturing to death my wife, my daughters, my granddaughters, or any member of my family.

And I think of what I would be willing to do to prevent that from continuing.

What I would do, personally, to another individual, to prevent an event similar to (or worse than) 9/11 is not fit for this forum. But I would get the information I need to ensure my family and, by extension, my countrymen would not experience 9/11 ever again.

http://www.politicsandprotest.org/

http://911digitalarchive.org/

http://www.september11news.com/

Go to your favorite search engine and remember what happened.

Never forget those who were killed.
Never forgive those responsible.

Turning the other cheek is not the correct response to deadly force. David didn't sing "Kumbaya" to Goliath and Joshua did not play quiet symphonies at Jericho.

Torture is wrong; but if we are safe, it is only because a few hard people are doing terrible things to secure our safety. If securing that safety is unpalatable to you, suggest another practical method of securing that safety or join the ranks of those who would rather be raped than protected by someone with a gun.

 

[QuickDraw]

With all the scrutiny the Armed Forces are under,why haven't we

seen any "torture victims".

It would seem to be in the Armed Forces best interests to keep

this rumor alive,it would scare the heck out of the bad guys.

Didn't the ACLU,UN, go over there and make sure those guys got

prayer mats,proper religious food etc.Aren't they "monitoring"

these prisoners?

Sadly, when the bullets start flying,the rule book goes out the window.

QuickDraw

 

[rick_reno]

torture

My only regret in dealing with these "people" is we can only kill them once. They can torture them all they want, and then hand them over to others who can do it with "cultural sensitivity" - I don't care what happens to them.

 

[SkunkApe]

Hmmm...wouldn't this depend on the whether the "report" is accurate or not?

-Zander

The answer is yes.

 

[Ian]

2dogs -

Is it less harmful or moral to machine gun, burn, drop daisy cutter bombs on the enemy than to make him uncomfortable?

When one is machine gunning, burning, and bombing the enemy, it is because you are on a battlefield and the enemy is fighting back. Once you take a soldier prisoner, the situation changes dramatically. Call me a naive romantic, but a prisoner is a guest (albeit not a particularly willing guest) and should be treated as such. That's the burden of being civilized.

TexasVet -

If you think this is torture then you're a naive, uneducated sheep. This describes trying to sleep in a university dorm on a weekend. Torture is VERY easy to identify.

Naive, perhaps. Uneducated sheep? I do object to that. I've read Solzhenitsyn's descriptions of Russian tortures (and their effects), and these sound an awful lot like them. I've also slept through many a weekend in university dormitories, and while I can see how you would draw the similarities, they are nowhere near the same situations.

In my mind's eye (if you will), I can hear the bodies hitting the cement...people jumping from the World Trade Center.

You know what, Dennis? So do I. Do you think that any of us are going to forget and ignore those victims? No! For Life's sake, I think of those victims and I'm sickened and horrified and angered by what America has done in their memory. We've abandoned the entire idea of human rights, both at home and overseas, in favor of a barbaric bloodlust. "Justice? Nobility? We don't need that sentimental tripe, let's just torture the ragheads. If we kill enough of them, everything will be better, and nobody will dare mess with us again, eh?"

All 9/11 seems to have done is drive us even further from the ideals that the country was founded upon.

 

[SkunkApe]

Well said, Ian.

 

[Byron Quick]

Folks, I'm an easy going type...I'm willing to play by YOUR rules in whatever game we play. And, if you're supercivilized, I will be supercivilized, also. On the other hand, if your side routinely skins POWS or some such...well-I won't go out of my way to torture you fellows...I'll be much too busy killing you- root and branch. Surrender? You guys should have thought about such civilized behavior before adopting savagery.


I don't define sleep deprivation and such as torture. Maybe you do. OK, we disagree.

Tell you what, though, if some of the extremists start doing to American soldiers what they once did to Russian soldiers...I would toss regiments of them out of helicopters to gain the intelligence to rescue ONE American soldier. Wouldn't be happy about it. Wouldn't be proud of it. Probably have nightmares forever. Might suicide later. Wouldn't hesitate.

 

[ZekeLuvs1911]

All 9/11 seems to have done is drive us even further from the ideals that the country was founded upon.

It is with a very heavy heart that I must say that I agree with this statement. My family immigrated to this country back in 1975 when I was 5 years old. I've served 5 yrs in the USAF and did my very best to be a good citizen. What bothers me is how fast and easily "Americans" are willing to give up their freedoms when the going gets tough. I think most Americans need to go live in another country for a year and follow their rules in that country to appreciate how lucky they are to be in the good ole US of A!

 

[Lord Grey Boots]

There is big difference between some discomfort and torture.

Folks seem to be taking the news article as fact, instead of the conjecture that it is.

Making prisoners wear blind folds isn't sensory deprivation.

Making prisoners wear earmuffs while on a transport plane isn't sensory deprivation.

Holding prisoners in the only thing available as secure holding facility (a shipping container) isn't torture.

Ask the media to back up their conjecture with some facts please, before we all go nuts.

Or does everyone believe the media?

 

[Wildalaska]

I still cant decide how to respond...

I am reminded however of the hostage crisis in Lebanon...

Seems like when the terrs were snatching Americans we sat and took the moral high ground..

A couple of Russians got snatched...the KGB grabbed a few terrorist family members, cut off some apendage and let them go with a warning that more was yo follow unless...

The Russian hostages were released...

Then again, when you peer into the abyss.....

 

[Drjones]

All 9/11 seems to have done is drive us even further from the ideals that the country was founded upon.

Absolutely, without a doubt.

 

[cracked butt]

Let me see, the Taliban... didn't they make their women wear burqas out in public and often beat them to death for doing things we consider normal freedoms...like going for walks without a man to escort them? Didn't they practice the old eye-for-an-eye style of law? Shining a bright light on the faces of these bas@@@@s sounds like alot less hardship than they deserve.

Al-queda... didn't they plot and finace highjacking several of our planes and crash them into heavily populated buildings causing thousands of innocents to be killed? Making them stand on their feet for a few hours doesn't sound too bad for them either. They are not innocent foot soldiers caught up in the moment, but crazed fanatics who want innocent Americans dead.

I won't lose any sleep over any of these methods of information gathering. What's next from the mamby pamby liberals? should we provide these prisoners with weight sets, cable tv, pool tables, and basketball courts?

 

[Tamara]

I question the veracity of the report, for the simple reason that, while interrogators may be using techniques such as sleep deprivation and "carrot-on-a-stick" rewards to gain information, anybody with two brain cells to rub together knows that if you smack somebody around enough, he'll confess to sinking the Lusitania, but that don't necessarily make it so.

 

[Sean Smith]

What Tamara said.

We are talking about a newspaper report by people with no reason to know what they are talking about, and everyone is in a moralistic uproar.

Rule Zero of intelligence is Consider The Source. Australian sand-hippie yellow journalism doesn't get me agitated.

I was actually a military intelligence officer, and even graduated from the counter-intelligence course. Not to tell you I'm some 007 tough guy (no homicidal supermodels for me ), but I actually do know a little about the theory behind getting information from people.

Torture is pretty much worthless as a practical tool for getting information. Or should I say, good information... even the threat of torture will make most people babble any kind of nonsense to make it stop. The NVA used all kinds of torture on people and didn't get jack squat for credible, usable info. And they didn't expect it. Torture victims tell you what they think you want to hear, not what is real.

Drugs, at least most drugs I heard of, had the same problem for different reasons. Inhibition-lowering intoxicants might make somebody "drop their guard" and tell the truth, or they might make them tell outrageous lies and exaggerations, or just babble nonsense. This is more likely than torture by a long shot, however.

Most good questioning works in the opposite way, by making the interrogator the solution, rather than the problem, in the subject's life, so to speak. The mere condition of being a prisoner typically creates enough stress to work with, especially the growing of hopeless feelings and fear over time.

 

[SkunkApe]

For all of you debating the definition of torture, take a look at what the Geneva convention has to say:

"No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

Furthermore, prisoners are not required to provide any information to their captors other than name, rank, and serial number:

"Every prisoner of war, when questioned on the subject, is bound to give only his surname, first names and rank, date of birth, and army, regimental, personal or serial number, or failing this, equivalent information."

And we can't just transfer the bad guys to someone else to do our dirty work:

"Prisoners of war may only be transferred by the Detaining Power to a Power which is a party to the Convention and after the Detaining Power has satisfied itself of the willingness and ability of such transferee Power to apply the Convention."

Afghanistan is a signatory of the Geneva convention.

Geneva convention text quotes were taken from this site:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

 

[cracked butt]

Here's a twist... We never declared war on Afghanistan, only on terrorism.

 

[JPM70535]

While I do not condone torture of POWs, I find notjing wrong with causing them a little discomfort such as sleep deprivation if that would lead to the access of info. of a nature to save American lives.

Let me pose a scenario to those of you who vehemently oppose the use of less than honorable methods of questioning.

A BG has kidnapped your (choose one) husband, wife, child, or parent. The BG has buried themalive with life support sufficient for 12 hours. His demands are impossible to meet ( and if met there is no guarantee of the safe return of the hostage) The BGs accomplice is captured and knows the location of the buried hostage. There are 4 hours of life support left.

You choose the method of interrogation, its your kin.