Usefullness of 30-30 in "Modern Combat"

[shevrock]

Okay, where's a good place to get bulk 30-30 ammo?

 

[DAdams]

It is

my understanding that when all the high cap EBRs are gathered up, those of us with lever varmint rifles will get to keep them for food gathering and pest control as they are not considered a threat or a combat rifle.

From The White House Website:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/urban_policy/

Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

Marlin 336 with 4x Weaver



Snuck in a 99E in .300 Savage

http://www.chuckhawks.com/leverevolution.htm
Good Article

 

[MCgunner]

Is there anything wrong with owning both types of weapons?

 

[DAdams]

Is there anything wrong with owning both types of weapons?

Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

From:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/urban_policy/

 

[45B@cav]

Well, it will kill a man.

 

[MCgunner]

Repeat with me: The 30-30 and the 7,62 x 39 ARE NOT similar in ballistic performances,

That's true, the 7.62x39 is hotter in most loadings. A 154 Wolf soft point clocks 2200 fps out of my 20" SKS. Most 150 flat nose .30-30s will do good to hit 2200 fps and by 100 yards are starting to fall in the dirt due to the terrible BC. Leverlution aside, the .30-30 is limited by the need for a flat or round nose bullet and modern factory loads can be really pathetic. I can handload a 150 grain .30-30 to 2400 fps out of a 20" barrel, but it's hard to find a modern factory load that can match that. I handload a 150 Nosler BT out of a 12" .30-30 barrel to 2100 fps that is still packin' 960 ft lbs at 200 yards, 3" high at 100, dead on at 200, but I can do that with a single shot pistol.

What Hornady needs to do is put those leverlution bullets out on the component market so us handloaders could play with 'em. My son-in-law has a 336 Marlin and would appreciate that.

BTW, that SKS with Wolf 154 soft points is pretty accurate and capable at 200 yards. That's some amazingly good ammo for no more than it costs. I took the scope off that SKS, though. I have better hunting rifles, 7 mag, .308, .257 Roberts. The SKS makes one TOUGH truck gun and ranch rifle. I have a lever gun I like, but it's not as tossable and is a pain to unload the magazine on. I get done with the SKS, I drop the floor plate on the 5 round magazine I have on it and it dumps. I jack the round out of the chamber and it's unloaded. that lever gun holds 10 .357 magnums and you gotta jack 'em out one at a time and I swear it tosses 'em 20 feet.

Anyway, I really don't think he who gets hit by the 7.62x39, then volunteers to get shot with the .30-30, is going to be able to tell you which is which in ANY loading.

 

[MCgunner]

Quote:
Is there anything wrong with owning both types of weapons?

Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent.

From:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/urban_policy/
__________________

So, your solution is to avoid buying modern semi auto arms to avoid this law? Heck, I ain't tacticool at all, my guns are for hunting, but I believe if you can afford to, buy up all the ARs and AKs you can NOW while you can! Bury 'em and report 'em lost in a boating accident or something, whatever, but don't be a conformist!

But, this ain't the political forum so I'll shut up.

 

[DAdams]

Such a Nice Thread

But, this ain't the political forum so I'll shut up.

Me Too

 

[saturno_v]

Mcgunner

I don't know what kind of Wolf ammo do you use or if you have an exceptionally long barrel in your SKS...from the Wolf website, the stated velocity of the 154 gr 7,62 X 39 is 2104 fps...

http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=12

At the range where I go, I saw regular Remington soft points 150 gr. round nose (most flat nose are 170 gr.) coming out at 2370-2390 out of a Winchester 94 20" carbine and Winchester 150 gr Silvertips breaking the 2400 fps barrier on a Marlin 336 20" barrel.

I cannot get 2400 fps out of my AK with the 123 gr loads.....

 

[Heck]

I think it is safe to say that my 94 in .30-30 would be more than sufficient for any situation that 99.9% of the people who post here will ever see. Where I live here in Arkansas I don't really see my ARs, SKS M, or my big rifles being a huge advantage.

 

[kiawahman]

This discussion could have ended following this post on page one;

...if you use the Hornady leveraction ammo, even at long range the 7.62 X 39 cannot hold a candle to a 30-30.

A lever action 30 WCF (especially a Marlin) is a fantastic survival rifle in an apocalyptic scenario...ammo and reloading equipment/supplies everywhere, very manuverable and handy, one of the highest rate of fire (only slightly second to a pump action) for a manual reloading long gun and you can drop pretty much anything in North America if you do your part...

 

[notorious]

IBTL!

 

[jlbpa]

I was impressed and so is doe in my freezer. Not a perfect shot from about 45-50 yards and she took less than 10 steps and fell over dead.

What gets me, generally speaking, is all the pistol ammo wasted by thugs (and even police) trying to kill other thugs and the victim ends up shot 1, 2, or even 3 times and yet heals and lives and walks away Shoot some body with a 30-30 1,2 or even 3 times and there'd be no need for an ambulance but just somebody to pick up the pieces.

I don't have much faith in my glock 19 when it comes to protecting me during an insurrection or home invasion. If I need protection I want a rifle. I have a sig556, marlin 30-30, 870 police. For the first kill if I had my druthers the most satisfaction would come from using the 30-30 , most fun using 870 police firing slugs, but if I need to head for the hills I'll be carrying my 556 with a backpack full of .223 ammo and just incase my glock 19 will be tucked in my waistband resting in it's don humme holster and a couple 15 round clips in my pocket.

 

[thunder173]

I'll apologize in advance to all the posters here for the comments I am about to make. If the shoe fits,...wear it. If not,...suck it up, ...and drive on.

I know a whole bunch of "overweight, camo'd out bubba's" up here in Michigan that I wouldn't want to go up against if all they had was a spit wad and a piece of copper tubing to blow it through,...much less a 30/30 lever action and a pocket full of ammo,...and I am glad to be counted amongst them. We grew up with it,...learned our hunting and shooting skills with it,..and yes,...many of our tactics,... and we've put those skills to use in a lot of places some of you pups can only recall from reading about in the history books. Sorry,...but you just hit a sore spot. As somebody said,..."I only have one nerve left,..and you just stepped on it" Granted,...it's not the first battle rifle I'd personally choose, and I've never had to carry a lever action 30/30 into a firefight,... but if it's what I have in my hands should I ever have to do it again,....it'll do,....at least until I use it to get something better. Again,...apologies to all. Rant done. Over & Out.

SGM, US Army, Retired

 

[outerlimit]

I gotta agree with that, .30-30 is everywhere, I almost bought a few boxes at the gas station the other night, but I still have about 10 boxes of Hornady Lever Revolution.

 

[shevrock]

What kind of bulk pricing is their?

 

[outerlimit]

What kind of bulk pricing is their?

About five years ago it seemed like 7.62x39mm was dirt cheap.

Not so anymore for quite awhile now.

 

[shotgunjoel]

Yeah yeah I know it was a movie, but it worked fine in Red Dawn until they got their hands on some AKs. Plus the 30-30 has about the same balistics as the 7.62x39mm. The only major problem I see is that it's a little slower than a semi, could get dirty easy, and you have a limited mag cap. But you can top it off easier than a semi. I guess in a lot of ways it's like a rifle verson of using a shotgun.

 

[notorious]

The same old adage:

The gun will do if you will do.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Perhaps, but 200 yards is very impressive for a pistol. It is not at all impressive for a rifle. In fact, 200 yards is not combat effective for a rifle.

Even in real deal infantry combat, and not our hypothetical home defense/militia rifle/whatever scenario, most engagements occur inside 100 meters, and it's not like the 30-30 round just stops at 200 meters. It's not an ideal combat gun cartridge for many reasons, including the trajectory issue, but AKs with similar ballistics have been combat effective for 60 years now.

 

[notorious]

For civilian defense, I would be hard pressed to justify a shot beyond even say 50 yards for most engagements unless they are advancing at my house so I can't retreat. If I am in the open and they are 50 yards away, I would just seek cover and escape. That's just me.

I like avoiding gunfights because no matter how unskilled they are, all it takes is a lucky hit or a ricochet and it would still hurt as bad as an intentional hit.

 

[outerlimit]

Has anybody tried Winchester Power Point Plus ammo in their .30-30? I never have, but I've wanted to try it for awhile now. It's sort of a +P .30-30 round. I guess it gets over 2,000fpe out of a standard length barrel. I'd like Hornady to load something like that with their Lever Revolution bullets.

 

[outerlimit]

You guys inspired me to get my old Winchester 94 out tonight. And I was instantly reminded of why I sold my Yugo SKS.
(and never looked back)

The 94 is much smaller, lighter, has a much better trigger, is more accurate, and looks a lot better too.

And the ammo is more powerful and easier to find. Not to mention QC being better overall on the guns and ammo.

 

[MCgunner]

saturno_v, we're really nit picking here. A deer ain't gonna know the difference. However, I last chronoed a factory .30-30 from a rifle a little over 20 years ago. I don't buy ammo, not .30-30, I make it. I buy Wolf because it's cheap and my SKS (20" barrel, BTW) tosses brass all over the place. I can pull the gas piston rod out and make it a straight pull bolt, though, when I'm playing with reloads, kinda cool. IIRC, the stuff I chronoed was Winchester from Walmart and it pushed a 150 to about 2200 fps. My handloads push 200 more fps and are not overloaded. This was from a friends pre 64 Winchester 94.

But, run those round nose loads through an exterior ballistics program and get back to me on 200 yard velocity/energy vs a spitzer from an SKS. The round and flat nose bullets run out of steam real quick. Either is a 200 yard gun if it's accurate. I don't care for AKs. Accuracy with most AKs is laughable. I've seen and fired a good .30-30 lever gun that would shoot 1.5 MOA for those that think lever guns are inaccurate. I'm getting about 2.5 MOA with the 154 Wolf out of the SKS.

Actually, I don't hunt with either. Blasphemy, but I own bolt action rifles in calibers like 7mm Rem Mag. No .30-30 can match that. My faves are my little stainless M7 in .308 and my old 722 Remington in .257 Roberts, though. The 7 is a cannon and a bit much for Texas whitetail or even hogs.

I like the SKS for a knockin' around truck gun, though. It's plenty powerful enough to take a decent size hog when I'm out tending to things, or knocking off a coyote or something. It's a lot more rugged rifle than my lever gun, in .357 Magnum, with which I have taken deer out to 80 yards. It's no .30-30/7.62, but it's enough for Texas deer. I've still got to try some lil gun in it, too. Thing I like about hunting with that one is killing game with my own cast bullets. I should probably move up to .45 Colt or .45-70 for that experience, I guess, but the .357 works to 100 yards.

I don't have anything against the .30-30 for use as a weapon of war except that the guns, themselves, are quite fragile. It's easy to dent that magazine tube and put it out of action. Battle rifles should be tough enough to take lots of whacks, even use as a club or pike if necessary.

BTW, I have two SKSs. Why sell 'em? They're cool shooters and I gave a grand total under 200 bucks for both. Of course, I spent money on aftermarket, but heck, that's what SKSs are about, right? Is for me, anyway.

 

[BlackHand1917]

I would prefer a semi-auto rifle or select fire rifle for combat. Having said that, I would not feel naked in a gunfight with a 30-30 lever action. The chief vulnerability would lie in the slow reload. Those Browning lever-actions with the box magazine would probably be the best alternative.