Using a light

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Hostile Amish

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To be safe, I decided to add a light to my carry gun, my Glock 19, and my Wife's interim carry gun, her Para-Ordnance. (Which will be replaced once I can buy a nice .357/.38 revolver, the Lawman is part of a collection and the Python is too big for carry.) Normally, I carry the Glock w/o the light, then when I arrive home, I attach it and put it in a different holster (my CCW rig doesn't accept a light). My wife also does the same.

Yesterday, I realized that this might not be the smartest way of doing things. I don't want to give up my CCW holster which I've used for a LONG time, but I also want a light on my gun in case I need it outside of my home. My wife is grudgingly carrying with a gunlight-optimized holster right now, speaking of which, once she has a revolver, what sort of light could she carry attached to the revolver (if that is even possible?)

Sorry for slightly incoherent post.
 
If you don't already have one I would recommend picking up a small dependable handheld flashlight for you and the wife. Personally I use Surefire but there are others if you decide to look int it. I keep the light in my off hand pocket. Learn how to shoot and present your weapon/light combo with care to not have the off hand in front off the muzzle at any time. The stand alone light gives you the benefit of being able to present a light for normal everyday stuff without having to present a weapon to do so and you will actually use the light you have paid for versus it hanging on your weapon, and you still have a light to use with the weapon if the need arises. Of course if you find yourself doing several building searches for bad guys every day, then it may be worth it to carry around a dedicated light on your weapon and a holster that will work with it. If not, you may find a stand alone light your best option.
 
+1 for small flashlight.

Also however, it's much easier to do this with a shotgun, which is set up for your home. I have a surefire g2 attached to a pressure pad.
 
I agree. There are many time when you want to use a flashlight that you don't want to be pointing a gun for both safety and legal reasons.

Plus, I still believe that a flashlight on a gun is a BAD idea. You might feel it will help you locate the bad guy, but it also means he will not need any help in locating you. (He just shoots at the light and nails the guy behind it!)

Jim
 
Nothing says you have to throw away all your flashlights when you buy and affix a weaponlight to a handgun or long gun.

Nothing says you have to use a weaponlight as you would a flashlight.

As with most of the oversimplifications of this nature, training and practice provide the answer. https://www.paladin-press.com/product/577/27 for example, perhaps Andy will be teaching some low-light stuff again soon. There are others out there who are teaching it also, no reason not to learn how to do it right.

lpl
 
I've been using a light on my carry gun for over a year now & really like the setup. I also carry a handheld light & have done some training on the proper use of the light. The biggest advantages of a weaponlight are the ability to maintain a two handed grip & the ability to run the light & gun with one hand if needed.

Obvisously a weaponlight is not a flashlight & fullg agree with Lee above. It is one more option with little to no downside.

For a holster you might look at the Raven Concealment Systems Phantom LC. It's a great rig- very concealable & comfortable & you can use it in a number of different setups.

I don't know about mounting the light to a revolver. I think there are a few out there with light rails but the key word there is few. Does your wife have something against a semi-auto?
 
Plus, I still believe that a flashlight on a gun is a BAD idea. You might feel it will help you locate the bad guy, but it also means he will not need any help in locating you.
With all due respect, that's because you haven't been taught how to use it effectively. You're correct, they will shoot at the light, but you don't just flip it on and start sweeping your house. You practice light-discipline. It's on for short bursts while scanning for threats. As soon as it goes off YOU MOVE. Also, a good tactical light is going to be hard to shoot at: try shooting at anything when you've just been blinded by 125 lumens.
A flashlight is an essential tactical tool - but like any tool you need to know how to employ it effectively. Lee is spot on: training!
 
I just finished a CCW class where we had a lesson on flashlight use, shooting at night. Things I learned was (for me) to carry a flashlight attached to gun is not practical. I'm not out that much at night to carry on gun, causes to many other problems.

Carry the light in belt holster and carry when needed. Light is held in weak hand below gun and makes a secure platform when hands crossed.

Have a end button to turn light off/on and do in short burst, moving when light off. On/off trigger should not CLICK and stay on in use, that click can be heard.

Light on at bad guys eyes, shoot, light off, MOVE, light on at bad guys eyes . . . repeat until not needed
 
Small Hand flashlight, and I would go for one of the new High output LED's with a strobe function, some of these are rated in excess of 200 lumen's!!! After all the goal is to identify and confuse....
 
Hi, 23Glock,

Well, that is the usual story, but with due respect, I don't buy it.

Think for a minute about a cop checking out a warehouse or store. He doesn't know where a BG may be, but as soon as he turns on his light, the BG knows where he is. He is a lot better just turning on the lights if he can.

The "blinding" point is heavily emphasized by the folks who sell lights, and they are right IF AND ONLY IF the light hits the BG the first flash. If not, there is NO blinding and the BG still shoots at the light.

BTW, why would you use a light in your own home? Keep cover and just turn on the light; you know where the light switch is, he doesn't and won't be ready.

My training, back in the dark ages, was to hold the light up to the left and in front of the body, so anyone shooting at it would likely miss you. But then we didn't have a lot of "cool" ads in those days, so we didn't know we needed 47 position rails, radar guided bullets, and tactical jock straps.

Jim
 
If you don't already have one I would recommend picking up a small dependable handheld flashlight for you and the wife.

Ditto... I find it to be a much better option than having it mounted on the gun. First off, you can use the light without having to draw up on someone. Second, the light can be used as a last ditch striking weapon. Third, it sucks to CCW a gun with a rail mounted light.
 
I agree high intensity light (off until needed) in the weak hand and Glock 19 with Crimson Trace Lasergrips in the strong hand! But I must admit turning on the lights would surprise the BG
 
Agreed. Lights are freakin' bullet magnets. If you happen to be pointing it directly at the person then you MIGHT blind them,...or surprise them into pulling the trigger on their sawed off shotgun. If it is pointed away from them, then they now have a general location...even if you move...of where you are. I'd like to see some of these tactical flashlight shows performed with paint ball guns. You wanna show that the flashlight is superior and going to save lives? Then get two people armed with paintball guns, the "homeowner with flashlight" and put some other human in the dark, in a room with furniture to hide behind, and show what works and what doesn't when someone is shooting back at you.

Funny how no one recommends sheltering in place anymore and yelling out at the top of their lungs, "Honey! Let Bloodfang off the leash! I've got the shotgun! You call 911!" Then sit back and wait to see if you hear people running toward your room to continue their "assault" or if you hear tiny little burglar feet running away.
 
The blinding effect is effective, except it's also a large target.

Before I joined the army, a friend of mine with the local sheriff who knew I was an avid paintballer invited me to play OP FOR for some training exercises. The last scenario was a dynamic entry into low light and heavy CS.

I was in the main room, they entered after a flash bang (I was in another room), I waited until I counted three lights then started spraying into the center of the group. I then retreated to the bathroom and hid where the toilet used to be. I shot every member of the entry team. They cleared the room across from me twice, finally an office came into clear the bathroom.

In the army I once pointed out a person moving towards the body of a convoy when my platoon was pulling security on a truck that was stuck. Once my gunner saw where I was pointing with my laser he lit it up with his IR flood, As my platoon sergeant was picking out where this guy was, he got a frantic call from our truck with the convoy, one of the drivers had gotten out to take a piss.

Now I leave nightlights on so if I wake up (adjusted eyes) I can see well enough, and have security lights where the street lights don't cover.

1. Lights might show where a BG is,
they always show where the person holding it is.
2. Night Vision, and IR spots / laser is how night fighting is done (with tech)
3. Your advantage at home is that you know your house and it's layout.

This is just my experience, but it is awful hard to use the surefire on your M-4 to find the snickers you dropped in the back of the truck.
 
SureFire has an "Executive" series of small flashlights. I have one here in Iraq and even for 60 to 65 lumens it will blind you. It's ultra small and might be what you're looking at to fill that need.



Kris
 
look for the pvs-14 3rd generation monocular. you can see them they can't see you, unless they have one too :eek:
 
Also, a good tactical light is going to be hard to shoot at: try shooting at anything when you've just been blinded by 125 lumens.

If the person is close enough to you, 125 lumens will probably start them shooting at you or charging you. They will not be totally stunned and clueless, period.

I EDC a light with 180 lumen max output, optional strobe, and it just doesn't do what companies like Surefire claim.

That doesn't mean it's not a useful tool, though. As far as I can tell there are two main uses in defensive scenarios for a light

1) IDing a target, with the caveat that you need to be ready to shoot or retreat if you figure out you're illuminating a bad guy. Ambient lighting, or even security/motion lighting, is a better choice for IDing in the house
2) Distraction for E&E in a scenario where lethal force is unlikely. Mercop wrote a pretty cool blog post on this a while back, basically saying that if you have a light on strobe and move it around rapidly over your head or beside your body, you WILL catch someone's attention for at least a second or so. You can definitely use this to your advantage!

It's just not going to go down like the promo BS on Surefire's website, but that's not to say flashlights are useless.
 
Killian- I don't think that anyone is advocating trying to clear your home just because you have a light. In some situations you may not have a choice but in general the "wait in ambush" mode is still considered your best bet. I don't have that option since I have a child in my home. I have to secure him if something is going on & take my armed wife with me in the process. Light good.

A light allows you to ID your target. People have shot friends, kids, spouses, neighbors, etc. due to lack of target ID. That would pretty well ruin your life. It also allows you to place more accurate fire on target than trying to line up Tritium sights on a dark semi-human looking blob on a dark background. Ambient lighting can help some- if there is any, but I doubt most homes are lit well enough at night to be able to positively ID the unknown contact in your home.

The in-home self defense laws vary widely from state to state so you better know them & be able to play along. If you live in a deadly force requires the threat of serious bodily injury or death state you better be able to articulate that you were so threatened. How can you do that if your target is dark on dark?

If weaponlights dodn't serve a useful purpose then why does every reputable trainer consider them to be a necessary piece of equipment? Why do the top level "shooting dangerous people for a living" folks use them?
 
Killian- I don't think that anyone is advocating trying to clear your home just because you have a light. In some situations you may not have a choice but in general the "wait in ambush" mode is still considered your best bet. I don't have that option since I have a child in my home. I have to secure him if something is going on & take my armed wife with me in the process. Light good.

A light allows you to ID your target. People have shot friends, kids, spouses, neighbors, etc. due to lack of target ID. That would pretty well ruin your life. It also allows you to place more accurate fire on target than trying to line up Tritium sights on a dark semi-human looking blob on a dark background. Ambient lighting can help some- if there is any, but I doubt most homes are lit well enough at night to be able to positively ID the unknown contact in your home.

The in-home self defense laws vary widely from state to state so you better know them & be able to play along. If you live in a deadly force requires the threat of serious bodily injury or death state you better be able to articulate that you were so threatened. How can you do that if your target is dark on dark?

If weaponlights dodn't serve a useful purpose then why does every reputable trainer consider them to be a necessary piece of equipment? Why do the top level "shooting dangerous people for a living" folks use them?

People who sell tactical lights are *precisely* encouraging people to perform tactical sweeps. That's how they advertise the product. They show people doing tactical sweeps. There are probably some that have people who were involved in shooting incidents who will come on the commercial and talk about how the light saved their lives....but so far *I* haven't seen that. Probably will in the future now that I've said that.

People who shot friends, kids, etc...were too quick on the trigger IMO. Identifying your target is your responsibility before you shoot....always! If you aren't sure...better to let yourself get shot than risk shooting an innocent IMO.

Using lights to ID your target sounds fine...but why not perform a slightly different form of ID? How about you keep your tactical light off and whisper, hollar, or otherwise vocally ask, "Yo honey! That you?" Then wait. I call this method, "Tactical Enquiry". Actually...make that "Sniper Tactical Enquiry"...because when you put the word "sniper" in...it sounds cooler. :)

If whoever you are calling to doesn't respond, THEN you might entertain the idea of going to a light...but why a tactical light? Why not an overhead? If its your kid sneaking around to get a sodapop...then you didn't need the tactical light or the gun. If its a bad guy, then you didn't need to reveal your position while you sweep the entire room by having a light on your gun and being unable to see him.

I happened to watch Personal Defense TV today. They were addressing this exact issue. What struck me was how choreographed their moves were. You open the door, you see the guy in the corner. You shoot him. No one discussed what to do if the guy shot two times through the doorway when you opened it...and yet wasn't in your immediate line of sight. I think proper technique for this situation is to throw in a grenade, then everyone pile into the room after it goes off. But most homeowners won't have grenades. (Some of you do, and would use them, I know.) Imagine you are standing there having to make the decision. Two shots have just come thru the open door and you have no clue where from. Do you know how many people are in the dark room? You know at least one was! Do you know where they are? Do you know if others are now creeping toward you from other parts of the house cause they heard their buddy in trouble? No...you probably don't know. If you have practiced repeatedly to now push forward into the room...conditioned yourself to do that...then you may be stepping into some major event that could have otherwise been differently handled.

Bad guys shouldn't be expected to do the choreographed thing. They might decide if they are being hunted in the house to do the unexpected. Like turn on the natural gas if you are hunting them. They hear you in the next room... and they start the couch or lounge chair or curtains on fire. That will give their stalking homeowner something else to think about while they escape. (And if caught by the cops outside they can always say, "I was out jogging. I saw a fire. I rushed over to help. I kicked in the door but it was too much! God I hope everyone is okay!" Imagine doing your tactical sweep, opening the door and finding your sofa burning. You distracted yet? Put your own creativity to it and you can probably come up with a thousand and one ways that unexpected...non-scripted...things are going to occur which aren't covered in tactical shooting class. Then understand that more likely the people assaulting your home have got more info on YOU than you do on THEM. They've probably watched your place. They have an idea if its going to be just you and your wife as potential threats.

In my opinion...do a reallllllly unexpected thing yourself. Put in a loud speaker in each room. Something you can speak to every room or be heard in every room of the house. When you think someone is in your house, turn it on and say, "I've called the police. They are on the way." That's it. If they keep coming after you after that, then you have got beaucoup problems. Then you can use your tactical lights and sonic ears and...well Everything You Got!

As to your kid...yeah, that changes things. I'm not gonna deny that. But I'd suggest you put something like a deadbolt on his door that only he can open from the inside. And some sturdy doors.

I'm not saying doing tactical shooting courses aren't fun, or that they won't hone your shooting ability with quick decision making. I'm just saying be careful and don't fall into the mindset that because you HAVE taken one of these courses that it is going to play out that way in real life. It might...but more likely than not, it won't.
 
Wow, I'm sorry Killian, but you need some training. "tactical enquiry" sounds like it will get you shot quicker than if you knew how to effectively deploy a light. Look, we're talking about a situation where it is necessary to clear your house - I totally advocate hunkering down, calling 911, and waiting: IF YOU CAN. But if my kids are on the other side of the house, you better believe I'm clearing my home.
You are absolutely correct in that situations never go exactly as the scenarios you've practiced, that is why good training facilities give you the tools necessary to think on your feet and adapt to situations, instead of just giving you "scenarios".
But if the bad guy shoots at the light, and actually hits me, I'VE made a fatal mistake: I let him in my decision cycle. If I'm clearing a room with a light, I'm cutting the pie, I'm owning every inch of space I clear, and I'm using cover and concealment to my best advantage. The problem with low light shooting, is that the best you can hope for is a level playing field. I'm in the process of installing an x10 master switch in my bedroom that turns on every light in the house: Deterrence, deescalation - leveling the playing field should the baddie decide to stick it out. Going at it in the dark is a level playing field: I can't see him, he can't see me. Using a tactical light is leveling the playing field: I can see him and he can see me. There's so much more to using a light (or lights, or darkness) when it comes to night "clearing". It's about low light tactics, knowing your home, and adapting to the situation.
Deadbolt my daughter's door? My god, how do I get in there if a baddie is raping her at knife point?? ::shiver:: (The correct answer is through the wall, but why complicate things with a deadbolt?)
Again, Lee nailed it: training, training, training!!
 
Again, Lee nailed it: training, training, training!!

I think that "Common sense, common sense, common sense!!" might be a better slogan. Clearing the house is great in action films. But clearing a house is better suited for the ultimate home invaders...the Army or the police. They have the equipment and manpower to do it quickly and overwhelmingly. If someone else tells you that you can compete on the same playing field...they are trying to sell you something. (Paraphrased from "The Princess Bride")

You can spend tons of time training...but if the solution (more training) entirely misses the problem (like buggy salesmen in 1900 facing the advent of the car...solution: build better buggies!....wrong.) then are you actually doing proper service to yourself and your family? That's not for me to say...I just offer the suggestion that an exploration of alternative mindsets and plans might be in order.

I like your idea of installing lighting systems that control every room in the house. THAT is a great idea! Talk about surprising a burglar if every light in the room suddenly came on! Coupled with my loudspeaker idea, I think that might be a real winner for encouraging bad guy vamooshage.

Out of curiosity though...why didn't someone make the ultimate argument in favor of having a defensive light on their handgun and shoot down my argument completely? :D Why not ask..."Well Mr. Killian...what do you do if the burglars cut the electricity to the house and there ARE no lights?" This is actually far more common than people would suspect. I personally know two people who had it happen to them. Thankfully neither was at home when the house was robbed. The crooks cut both the electric line AND the phone line. (Back in the pre-cell phone days...btw, keep your cell phone near you at all times.) Crooks still do it though...a lot of alarms are based on phone line and electricity working.

In that situation, having a light of some kind might make sense. The type of people who would take that much time and effort to rob you are pretty hardcore. They might be hardcore about allowing you to live also. But I still don't think I want it attached to my gun or near it. If people aim toward the light and you have the gun in the sight line of your eye, they are aiming toward YOU!

If you are determined to sweep and clear your house though, I'll offer you a poor man's grenade. It's not going to be super fast, but it IS a way to put a little extra hurt on a bad guy and possibly make him decide to either quit, run, or surrender. If nothing else it could leave him blind or choking. What poor man's grenade is this you ask?

Bug bomb.

If someone shoots those two rounds through the doorway like I mentioned in a previous scenario, and you don't want to go thru that door into God Knows What, but you WOULD like to make life more interesting for whoever is in there....then introduce him to one, two, or even three cans of Raid Super Duper vermin remover. It usually doesn't take more than two or three good lungfuls to have someone coughing up their supper. At a minimum, it puts the onus on the bad guy to move and not remain in ambush against you.

Just a suggestion.
 
LOVE the bug bomb idea!

Killian,

Cool, non-lethal idea for turning the tables! Might just put one or two next to my HD gun.

As for weapon-mounted lights vs. handheld: I have a weapon-mounted light/laser combo. I have a 7,000 square foot home. All bedrooms on the 2nd floor with a double staircase leading up from the front door. I have my wife next to me and two children under 5 yrs old across the landing from my bedroom to keep safe. I WILL be traversing a portion of my house in order to secure my family, and I WILL need to identify any targets before firing - so a light of some kind is a must. If I have a light in one hand and my gun in the other, I (a) will not have any hands free for corralling kids/spouse, (b) will be taking (if necessary) a one-handed shot instead of two and (c) I now have to keep track of my weak hand and make sure I don't sweep myself.

Training, training, ya, ya I know. If I could train as much as I'd like, I could probably afford a private security detail instead.

As for the BG's shooting at the light, try this. Point your weapon-mounted or handheld at the mirror and light yourself up. Right in the eyes. Do you see a single point to aim at or a wash of painful white light? If the former, you need a better light! If the latter (like my weapon-mounted light), what will you be "aiming" at? Aiming implies lining up one's sights using their eyes. I defy anyone to AIM their weapon at a 160+ lumen weaponlight.

Further, in the 1 second it takes me to pulse my light on the BG and identify him as such, I will begin firing on him. With the element of surprise (the same surprise you purport to get by flipping on the house lights) I doubt the BG will be returning aimed fire in any meaningful way.

And to the idea of flipping on the houselights. If we agree that that WILL surprise the BG and give you a moment's jump, wouldn't adding blinding/disorienting light to that surprise by using a weaponlight be even better?

One last item. With handheld lights, I often hear that I am to hold it up and away from my body so as not to provide a target. Notwithstanding my argument about that above, that body position is less than optimal for putting down accurate fire. Proper firing position with one hand has your weak hand pulled in tight to provide a stable "turret" from which to fire. personally, I want two hands on the gun so I have the best chance possible of dropping the BG on the first shot.

OK...one last LAST item. I think we are talking about marginal advantages here. In almost any home invasion type situation, BG is NOT expecting resistance at all. Whether you have a weapon mounted light or a handheld, the fact that you are engaging him and have a firearm will probably be such an overwhelming advantage that you could be using a candle-powered lantern and still have the drop.

Sorry for the long post!
 
I'd go for OC

The bug bomb is a low level nerve gas, and can seriously screw you or you children up. A OC grenade will do the same thing,(blurred vision, tightness in chest, etc,) without the whole dead part. You can buy pepperblast round, which are going to take out the room + its fired into, get mist / vapor OC.

Only good side I can think of is that bug bombs dissipate, where OC is a oil, or oily powder.

Better yet, get CS, if you can.

I like the bear spray way of clearing a room, open the door a crack, Spray the mist, close the door and listen for BG.

Oh, and in the military, we never stacked less than 4 for an entry, every wall / angle was hit least twice, and yes, you are supposed to toss the grenade in first.

doors = funnel of death, If your defending the room, you shoot the door when they enter, then shift to exposed members, as the door gives you the best chance of hitting as many as possible.
 
The blinding effect of the light is to pulse it into their eyes, then move / shoot while they are seeing stars, Go paintballing with a buddy and take your light, at night. Shine the light at him and see if he can hit you by shooting at the light, then pulse the light to identify the target, move laterally and fire, then pulse the light to confirm your hits. 2 points, the light will destroy your adjusted night vision, and if there is a second BG outside of the light cone, your screwed. You can shoot uncomfortable lisht sources, maybe not accurately, but I would empty the magazine at the light while moving for cover / reload.
 
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