Using a Sizing Die to Remove the Bell

[rugerglocker]

OK, lets say you don't have a crimping die or you don't like the way your crimp die crimps. Now lets say after you seated the bullet, you take the decapper out of your sizing die and run the finished rounds through that to remove the bell from the expander. Don't need a lot of crimp because they are light .357 loads (more like .38 spl in .357 brass). Anything wrong with this? Because I finished some rounds like this tonight. Kinda like a Lee FCD without the taper crimp at the top of the die.

By the way I don't like either of my crimpers: a RCBS seater/roll crimp die and a Lee taper crimp only die. They both seem to shave of little tiny amounts of brass off the neck, shortening brass life.

I have even gone without any crimp at all when I can seat certain bullets without very much bell if any. Light loads of course and seemed to be fine (low SD) over a chrono.

Let know know what you guys think of this.

 

[Walkalong]

The sizer is too tight to do this without ruining the round. Buy a Redding taper crimp die. Deburr and chamfer your brass as well.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=719395

 

[steve4102]

The sizer is too tight to do this without ruining the round.

This^

 

[rugerglocker]

So these 20 or so rounds that I tried this on are ruined? What exactly will be the problem with them? Pressure too high? Thanks

 

[snuffy]

So these 20 or so rounds that I tried this on are ruined? What exactly will be the problem with them? Pressure too high? Thanks

Running them into the sizer will squeeze the neck of the shell AND the bullet to a too small diameter. Then the brass will spring back BUT the bullet won't/can't. You'll end up with a loose bullet, probably will work it's way out of the case, tie up the revolver,(we assume you're using them in a revolver.)

You're lucky you could get away with it without ripping the rim off the case.

 

[918v]

You can do this but you have to stop before the case mouth enters the straight section of the sizing ring, meaning you only use the champhered part of the sizing ring ro remove the bell. This will be a royal pain cuz you'll have to watch the round closely.

If you run the round all the way through, the bullet will be reduced in diameter by .002" to .004" and that will make for a crappy reload.

 

[Jim Watson]

Before taper crimp dies were as common as they are now I did a bunch of .45 ACP in the sizing die, but I did not run the round all the way in.
With the decapping spindle out, I started the sizing die backed way out and screwed it in until it just touched the flare on a case mouth; then down half a turn to one turn maximum. The radius on the die mouth applied an adequate taper crimp without distorting the bullet... much.

 

[Walkalong]

I did the same thing as Jim Watson with some .32 Long rounds until my taper crimp die came in, and it worked...... kind of sorta.

 

[snuffy]

I did a bunch of .45 ACP in the sizing die, but I did not run the round all the way in.

I did the same thing as Jim Watson with some .32 Long rounds until my taper crimp die came in, and it worked...... kind of sorta.

Yeah, it would probably work, but the OP sounded like he was running the shell all the way into the sizer.

 

[Walkalong]

Yes it did, and that would ruin the round, even partway would ruin it.

 

[rugerglocker]

I did size a few all the way and a few that just started the mouth in the die. None seemed overly hard to get in and out of the die. Maybe I'll pull the fully sized ones and mic them to see if the bullet dia. was sized.

Sounds like that Redding taper die may be the ticket. I tried one from lee and it leaves the bright ring at the mouth and leaves tiny bits of brass (very small amounts of brass dust/shavings) at the mouth. I don't like this because it seems like it would shorten brass life (mouth splits?).

I assume the Redding has a better design and does not leave the bright ring and/or brass shavings? Walkalong you actually have this die?

Thanks for the help guys.

 

[918v]

I have the Redding taper crimp die. It will leave a bright ring around the case mouth on a freshly trimmed case, but not after that. It does not shave brass.

 

[rugerglocker]

OK, I usually don't trim my .357s, so I guess it would work how I want. I guess I should take pictures of my Lee taper crimp die and what it does to cases.

 

[rcmodel]

None seemed overly hard to get in and out of the die.

Yes, but lead is soft, and your press has several tons of pressure at full ram travel.

Rest assured if you ran a loaded round all the way into a sizing die, your carefully chosen, perfectly sized bullets are not perfectly sized anymore!!

By necessaty, the sizing die reforms the case smaller then bullet diameter by several thousandths of an inch.
Then the expander expands it back to .002" - .003" smaller then bullet dia so you have good case neck tension.

Then, if you resize the loaded round again, the bullet gets squished several thousandths smaller then the outside dia of the resized case mouth.

At best accuracy will suffer, and at worst hot gas blowing by the undersize bullets will lead your barrel shut!!

rc

 

[mdi]

I tried a Lee FCD on my .44 Specials/Magnum. Because the die ran the case OD down to factory specs. The cast bullets were swaged down undersize for my barrels. Got leading. The only crimp I use on revolvers is a roll crimp, I never liked taper crimping revolver rounds. For my Mag. rounds, a heavy roll crimp is best for consistancy and good ignition. To answer your original question, I too, think the size die would size the case too small and result in loose bullets, as noted above. What don't you like about your RCBS die? Have you tried seating and crimping in two steps? Perhaps there is too much flare in the case mouths and you get those brass "shavings".

 

[rcmodel]

They both seem to shave of little tiny amounts of brass off the neck, shortening brass life.

Your case necks will crack before you wear them out with a crimping die.

Use a chamfer & deburring tool on the sharp case mouths to start with on once fired brass, and the "little brass shavings" will be history.

rc

 

[rugerglocker]

Bullets are jacketed (SJSP) with cannalure so I want a taper crimp, and I just prefer it over a roll. Haven't tried seating and then crimping (2 steps) with the RCBS because I don't want to have to keep changing the seating stem depth for seating. That's what it would take to use that die in 2 steps right? Otherwise you would set it to seat and crimp in 1 step.

I'll check out bullet size on the ones I fully sized and report back.

 

[rugerglocker]

Gotta give you guys a nod and credit, you know what you're talking about. Mic'd the ones I fully sized: barely any neck tension, pulled em with my fingers, and drum roll..... .353! Surprised I didn't notice the lack of neck tension earlier.
The ones that I just kissed with the sizer had good tension and were at .357

The good thing is that I only tried this w/ 10, still I wasted about $.80 in bullets. Maybe I can bump them back up in size if I get the CH4D swaging dies I want.

Case Closed, thanks.

 

[Walkalong]

Walkalong you actually have this die?

Yes, more than one. They are very nicely made and quite smooth inside. I also have a Lee (or two), but they have to be polished inside, and the taper is a little sharper. I prefer the Redding by far, but the Lee is serviceable, and half the price.

+1 to rcmodel. Lightly deburr and chamfer all your brass once, and it will help immensely, especially if you trimmed the brass. For trimmed brass, it is mandatory, in my opinion.

 

[rugerglocker]

I also have a Lee (or two), but they have to be polished inside, and the taper is a little sharper.

Ya when I look inside the Lee I can see the sharp "ledge", maybe I'll see if I can do a little polish work with a dremel before I get the Redding.

You guys have been extremely helpful as usual, thanks.

 

[BADUNAME37]

I have, with certain seating or crimping dies, a real fine brass circular piece that is thinner than a hair. I believe this is normal, and if that is what the OP is referring to, then they are really scrutinizing the finished product a bit too closely, IMHO.

You could call these things that end up on nearly every cartridge that is crimped "brass shavings", however it is so little brass removed that I agree with others, your brass will wear out before the necks will split!

 

[rugerglocker]

I have, with certain seating or crimping dies, a real fine brass circular piece that is thinner than a hair. I believe this is normal, and if that is what the OP is referring to, then they are really scrutinizing the finished product a bit too closely, IMHO.

You could call these things that end up on nearly every cartridge that is crimped "brass shavings", however it is so little brass removed that I agree with others, your brass will wear out before the necks will split!

Ya that pretty much describes what I'm seein', maybe a bit more than you do though. I don't think I'd call it a negligible amount to completely discount it, it is obviously taking away from the brass when done over and over. I wan't my .357 brass to last, ain't like you find it everywhere like 9mm & .40. But maybe you guys are right, I could be nit-picking.

 

[Walkalong]

If you deburr and chamfer it normally won't shave that little sliver when you roll crimp. If you don't, it will often do it the first tine you roll crimp the brass, but not the next, because you have now slightly rounded the case edge.

Some roll crimp ledges are pretty much 90 degrees with a sharp edge and they are prone to doing this. You can knock that sharp edge off and polish it a little and it will work much better.

deburr and chamfer. Only has to be done once, or until you trim again, and well worth the trouble if you like good crimps.

 

[joneb]

Before I trimmed my revolver brass....I would often encounter a case that was to long or short for the seater/crimp die setting, the case mouths could bulge enough to prevent chambering. I was using a heavy roll crimp in the bullets cannelure.

To get these poorly loaded rounds to chamber I ran them in the sizer die about an 1/8". I guess you could taper crimp this way if you could get a precise stop point, either by adjusting the die far enough out or creating a ram stop on the under side of the press.

For plated bullets I use a taper crimp, for 38spl/357 mag. a 9mm seater crimp die will work minus the seater stem.

I now trim my revolver brass this allows me to apply a consistent heavy roll crimp with out deforming the case mouth.