using small rifle primers for 380 acp.
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BigMacMI
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I had a similar problem when I was gifted some incorrect primers (that Cabelas can't return). Except of the magnum variety. From what I have gathered, it may necessitate a change in your load to keep pressures correct as a 'stronger' ignition will change your primer/powder reaction and speed.
I am gathering primers as they are available locally to make sure to keep on hand in the event of another large scale shortage, but the answer would be good to know for certain in the event you needed to make a bunch with what you have on hand (if you are a SHTF believer... but then again, you'd probably have a few thousand squirreled away
)
I am gathering primers as they are available locally to make sure to keep on hand in the event of another large scale shortage, but the answer would be good to know for certain in the event you needed to make a bunch with what you have on hand (if you are a SHTF believer... but then again, you'd probably have a few thousand squirreled away
)yes,I just tried one in a unloaded case.it fit,but when I fired the unloaded case the primer backed out a few thousands. don't know why it did that .so I thought I would ask if that's not a good thing.any advice would help.I had a similar problem when I was gifted some incorrect primers (that Cabelas can't return). Except of the magnum variety. From what I have gathered, it may necessitate a change in your load to keep pressures correct as a 'stronger' ignition will change your primer/powder reaction and speed.
I am gathering primers as they are available locally to make sure to keep on hand in the event of another large scale shortage, but the answer would be good to know for certain in the event you needed to make a bunch with what you have on hand (if you are a SHTF believer... but then again, you'd probably have a few thousand squirreled away
pert near
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My understanding is that the only difference in pistol/rifle primers is the thickness of the metal cup. In theory, the weaker mechanics of a pistol may strike the primer with less force. BUT I recommend you follow the manufacture's instructions if at all possible.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
The primer in all cartridges will back out when fired. You don't notice it because when the cartridge fires with powder in the case the pressure slams the case back into the bolt face forcing the primer back into the pocket. What you saw is perfectly normal.
Most SRP are no "hotter" than SPP, they only handle the higher pressures of a rifle cartridge better. The only problem might be the firing pin energy might not be sufficient to reliability ignite the SRP. If you gun will fire them there is no reason not to use them. As with any change in components drop back the charge and work back up.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Welcome to the forum. I'm glad we could help.
mstreddy
Member
OP, welcome to THR.
Yes, you can use small rifle primers in small pistol applications. But, one thing I found when I was testing them is that different primer brands will work differently because of the cup thickness. As mentioned above, the thicker cups may be difficult to set off in some striker fired guns. The brand that I found this consistently in was CCI. I have loaded around 2100 Wolf, Tula and Remington small rifle primers in 9MM, 40 S&W, 38 Spcl and 32 ACP. They all worked well in a variety of pistols and carbines. The CCI small rifle primers would not go off in my Glocks, my buddy's M&P and another gun that I can't remember at this time. IIRC the Beretta 92 did set them off, and the carbine did as well.
I had tested these during the height of the shortage and it was good to know that if I had to only buy small rifle, then it would be fine.
I suggest you try a batch and see if they work in your guns.
Yes, you can use small rifle primers in small pistol applications. But, one thing I found when I was testing them is that different primer brands will work differently because of the cup thickness. As mentioned above, the thicker cups may be difficult to set off in some striker fired guns. The brand that I found this consistently in was CCI. I have loaded around 2100 Wolf, Tula and Remington small rifle primers in 9MM, 40 S&W, 38 Spcl and 32 ACP. They all worked well in a variety of pistols and carbines. The CCI small rifle primers would not go off in my Glocks, my buddy's M&P and another gun that I can't remember at this time. IIRC the Beretta 92 did set them off, and the carbine did as well.
I had tested these during the height of the shortage and it was good to know that if I had to only buy small rifle, then it would be fine.
I suggest you try a batch and see if they work in your guns.
Dog Soldier
member
The small rifle primer produces a longer stream of ignition in the case. This will allow the primer stream to push the bullet forward before the propellant explodes.
The primer flame or stream moves forward to the base of the bullet before igniting the propellant. This can cause the pistol to jam.
The primer flame or stream moves forward to the base of the bullet before igniting the propellant. This can cause the pistol to jam.
How would it cause a jam? The primer can't unlock the chamber. I've been doing this for years.
Carl N. Brown
Member
I had a .380 pistol that fired reliably with Winchester .380 ACP ammo but not with reloads with small rifle primer or commercial S&B .380 ACP ammo. It was double action and the second strike would fire those that did not fire first time (rounds ejected after no fire first strike showed light firing pin dimple). The hard primer ammo good for practice and helped cure flinching.
I use small rifle primers reloading for my Mauser C96 pistol. Stiff mainstring + heavy hammer = positive ignition every time.
I have a 19th century Forehand and Wadsworth BP revolver. The combination of oversized firing pin hole in the breech face plus small rifle primer or small pistol magnum primer could tie the cylinder up.
I use small rifle primers reloading for my Mauser C96 pistol. Stiff mainstring + heavy hammer = positive ignition every time.
I have a 19th century Forehand and Wadsworth BP revolver. The combination of oversized firing pin hole in the breech face plus small rifle primer or small pistol magnum primer could tie the cylinder up.
Keep an eye on the breech face and watch for pitting around the firing pin hole from gas leaking by. If this starts to happen switch back the small pistol primers. Other than that, stop a hair short of max data.
A small pistol primer with no powder can move the bullet, so of course a small rifle one could as well. Both reach out long enough to reach the bullet base, and both will make enough pressure to move a bullet, sometimes into the rifling and even the bore, depending. It is impossible for the primer not to start ignition of the powder before reaching the bullet base or making enough pressure to move the bullet into the lands.
A small pistol primer with no powder can move the bullet, so of course a small rifle one could as well. Both reach out long enough to reach the bullet base, and both will make enough pressure to move a bullet, sometimes into the rifling and even the bore, depending. It is impossible for the primer not to start ignition of the powder before reaching the bullet base or making enough pressure to move the bullet into the lands.
Dog Soldier
member
Reloading can and is based on general physics.
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1102/1102.1644.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_wave
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1102/1102.1644.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_wave
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wally
Member
If your pistol can set them off reliably, I see no reason you can't use them. Working up again with any change in load recipe is the smart and safe thing to do.
In general it's never a good idea to experiment with high pressure explosions without proper training or testing and taking the advice from a bunch of unknowns on the Internet isn't very dependable. I prefer to follow the recommendations of the people that actually designed, tested, and built the weapons and the ammo, they seem to have the advantage over me or anyone else that is a common hobbyist. Contact the pistol manufacturer and ask them if their pistol would work reliably and safely with the rifle primers (my guess is that they wont recommend it).
On the common sense side (I know, there isn't any such thing as common sense nowadays but I'm an optimist) it would seem to me that it would take a different primer mix amount to ignite the powder volume in a rifle cartridge than it takes to ignite the powder volume in a far smaller pistol cartridge and that leads me to believe that the rifle primer will have more priming mix which means more pressure. Probably not lots more pressure but considering the small .380 case I'd say that the relative increase in primer mix is pretty large, maybe large enough to cause issues.
Then there's the difference in primer cup thickness; according to one expert (German Salazar) the thicknesses are
Small pistol .0173 - .0178"
Small rifle .0205 - .0210" - Commercial
So I'd want to test the ability of the pistol's firing system to ignite the thicker rifle primers reliably and if this is a carry gun that I'd want to rely on for self defense then I'd be very thorough in my testing.
Personally I'd check with the manufacturer and if they said it's safe then I'd experiment and see if it's a reliable combination knowing that there are slight difference in every pistol and what might work well for one wont necessarily work well in another.
On the common sense side (I know, there isn't any such thing as common sense nowadays but I'm an optimist) it would seem to me that it would take a different primer mix amount to ignite the powder volume in a rifle cartridge than it takes to ignite the powder volume in a far smaller pistol cartridge and that leads me to believe that the rifle primer will have more priming mix which means more pressure. Probably not lots more pressure but considering the small .380 case I'd say that the relative increase in primer mix is pretty large, maybe large enough to cause issues.
Then there's the difference in primer cup thickness; according to one expert (German Salazar) the thicknesses are
Small pistol .0173 - .0178"
Small rifle .0205 - .0210" - Commercial
So I'd want to test the ability of the pistol's firing system to ignite the thicker rifle primers reliably and if this is a carry gun that I'd want to rely on for self defense then I'd be very thorough in my testing.
Personally I'd check with the manufacturer and if they said it's safe then I'd experiment and see if it's a reliable combination knowing that there are slight difference in every pistol and what might work well for one wont necessarily work well in another.
Simply ridiculous and doesn't help the OP at all, physics or no physics.
Dog Soldier
member
Please accept my apology for not clearly understanding the problem.
Dog Soldier
member
Loonwulf, I also like Federal handgun primers. The long on going debate regarding primer hardness has many interesting facets. I refer you to an interesting link in this discussion. Pay particular attention to "Too Much Primer".
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/
Firearm manufactures make it pretty clear they don't think you should reload in the first place.
Also a 222 or 223 rifle has about the same case capacity or a little less then a 357 revolver.
I consider myself to be above the common standard when it comes to common sense.
mstreddy
Member
Exactly what I was thinking. I can't remember ever seeing a firearm manual that didn't say the bit of reloads are bad and will void the warranty.
And, I think that I have some of that "common" sense. Enough to have conducted my own experiments in loading some rifle primers in handgun loads. It was good to know what worked, and what didn't, so that if the supply continued to be strained and I could only get small rifle primers, then I could still load and shoot my handguns as well.
Again, in all things firearms and reloading related, use appropriate caution, follow established procedures and be safe. What worked for me may not work for you. YMMV, do not fold, spindle or mutilate, and void where prohibited.
Best accuracy is usually gotten with primers that are just hot enough to reliable set off the charge, no more, especially in rifle.
http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html
In pistols 2400 is one famous for giving worse accuracy with mag primers. Some powders of course need mag primers.
HS-6 in 9MM performs better with mag primers.
http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html
In pistols 2400 is one famous for giving worse accuracy with mag primers. Some powders of course need mag primers.
HS-6 in 9MM performs better with mag primers.
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W.E.G.
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