USPSA/IPSC procedural question...

[seeker_two]

The stage: You have 4 paper targets (T1-T4) at the first station. At the next station, you have another set of targets. Per the range instructions, you are to engage T1-T4 with two rounds each target. Then, before you proceed to the next stage, you have to perform a mandatory reload.

The problem: You are shooting a 6-rd (Revolver-class) or 7-rd (Production Class) revolver. In order to engage T4, you will have to reload.

The question: Does the reload for T4 count as the mandatory reload b/t the first station and the second station, or must you make another reload (dumping your remaining live rounds) in order to avoid a procedural penalty?

I've scoured the USPSA rulebook and discussed this with USPSA/IPSC shooters before, and have received many different answers.

Which is right?

Thanks in advance.....

 

[Chris Rhines]

I don't think that this is a legal USPSA stage.

Edit:

1.1.5
Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be
constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or stances.

Not a legal stage...

US1.1.5.1
Level I matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations.

...unless it's a Level I match.

1.1.5.2
Standard Exercises and Classifiers may include mandatory reloads and may dictate a shooting position or stance, however, mandatory reloads must never be required in other Long Courses.

This course of fire would be okay in a Standard Exercise...

1.2.2.1
“Standard Exercises” must not require more than 24 rounds to complete. Component strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified).

...actually, no it wouldn't. Too many shots from one shooting position.

This is a bit of a grey area. Non-freestyle COFs are technically legal in a Level I (club) match, but they are really frowned upon.

What exactly does the course description say? Only that a mandatory reload has to be made before moving to the next shooting position? Or does it state that you must reload between the two shooting positions?

Difficult, and unnecessarily so. Were I the match director, I would have vetoed this stage and had a few words with the designer.

- Chris

 

[Babalouie]

I agree with Christ, not a legal stage. At level 1, which basically means a local club match, it would be shot but most of the classified uspsa guys would be letting you know its not a legal stage and complaining. Also, course of fire description is gospel...if it doesn't specify, or is unclear, you are free to game it up and figure it out for yourself.

 

[eerw]

When I have seen some of the revolver shooters shoot some speed shoots at our club..with the T1-T4 2rounds each, reload, re-engage with 2 rounds each scenario.

they all have done the extra reloads...

shooting T1-T3, reload, T4, reload, T1-T3, reload, T4..

 

[faustulus]

sounds like and idpa stage to me.

 

[jdkelly]

Per the range instructions, you are to engage T1-T4 with two rounds each target. Then, before you proceed to the next stage, you have to perform a mandatory reload.

The exact wording of the range instructions is very important.

If it said that you must do a reload "after" engaging T1-T4 with two rounds then you need to do the extra reload.

If it said that you must do a reload "before" engaging the second set of targets then your reload to engage T4 in the first set of targets is "before" engaging the second set.


Respectfully,

jkelly

 

[Babalouie]

There is no difference between a reload and a mandatory reload. You use the word "Then" a reload...what does that mean. If that is exactly how it is worded then you must follow proceedure. I doubt the word "then" was used. As NROI graduate I would not allow a course of fire to be written this way, nor would I allow a mandatory reload in a field course, which is illegal.

 

[motorep]

What Babalouie said. USPSA green book- 1.1.5, 1.1.5.2.

 

[jcb2001]

"The stage: You have 4 paper targets (T1-T4) at the first station. At the next station, you have another set of targets. Per the range instructions, you are to engage T1-T4 with two rounds each target. Then, before you proceed to the next stage, you have to perform a mandatory reload."

Seeker it was probably a level 1 match that being said you would have to perform a mandatory reload after T4 regardless if you reloaded before or not.
I assume the idea was intended to slow the open and limited shooters down. Revo shooters are always taken advantaged of.

John

 

[richardschennberg]

Unfortunately, if you have to reload after 6 shots at one array, you still have to reload again before changing arrays. We revolver shooters don't get the attention we need. If anyone would listen, I would suggest:
1. That USPSA add the following to the Revolver Division Rule that requires reloads every six shots fired: "In a match with more than one Division, mandatory reloads specified in a stage descriptions do not apply to Revolver Division."
2. Until USPSA BOD remembers that revolvers exist, I would suggest that, whenever possible, individual match directors add the following rule to apply to all stage descriptions in their matches (except the classifier): "Other than the requirement to reload every six shots, Revolver Division competitors are exempt from all mandatory reloads in every stage description EXCEPT the classifier."
You can't ever change a classifier and have it count, but otherwise I would hope that MDs and eventually USPSA BOD gives us a break.
Richard
Schennberg.com

 

[MrOverlay]

If we could see the actual wording on the walkthrough it would help clear up the question, but it hasn't been posted yet.

The stage would be legal if it were a classifier such as 03-06 or at Level 1 match where freestyle requirements and round count limitations are not strictly required.

Since guns in a particular division (not class), such as revolver, compete against other revolvers, they all have the same reloading requirements so there is no unfair handicap.

Those who choose to use a revolver should be very proficient in reloading as they do not have the luxury of a high capacity weapon and will always need to have skills in reloading. Exempting them a basic skill set seems to me to be counter productive. In addition, the majority of USPSA/IPSC courses are freestyle and therefore required reloads are not mandated and left up to the shooter on an as needed basis.

Adding rules such as offered above dillutes the value of the rulebook. One of the founding purposes of the rulebook is allowing everyone to operate with the same rules across the country regardless of where you are.

Gary

 

[Babalouie]

I'm a Limited shooter and proud of it...but Jerry Miculek would kick my butt even if I didn't have to do a mag change and he had to do three!

The final answer would be from the RO/CRO for that match, or the stage designer. When I design stages, three are being shot tomorrow night, the questions, and the answers, and the complaints, come to me. Its a poor design.