VA and NC Carriers: Beware Blued Ridge Parkway

[ForeignDude]

I found this thread at opencarry.org (Virginia sub-forum). To make a long story short, a VA CHL holder is driving down the Blue Ridge Parkway in VA; he's stopped by National Park Service, arrested for having a loaded gun in a national park, and convicted; he appeals the decision, arguing that no signage on the road is present indicating "no guns are allowed" or that the road itself belongs to NPS; the appeals court rules that he should have known the BRP was part of a national park, and upholds the conviction.

Moral of the story: Watch where you drive.


full opinion at http://www.vawd.uscourts.gov/opinions/urbanski/mo.708po024gettier.pdf

Gun On Parkway - Notice To Drivers
May 12, 2008

A driver who had two loaded firearms in his vehicle, which was pulled after defendant failed to completely stop at a stop sign, cannot avoid conviction for having a loaded weapon in a vehicle on the Blue Ridge Parkway by claiming there was no posted notice that such possession was illegal, a Roanoke U.S. District judge says.

In U.S. v. Lofton, 233 F.3d 313 (4th Cir. 2000), the 4th Circuit decided a case very similar to this one. The defendant in Lofton argued, as defendant here does, that a national park was required to give notice of a prohibition against carrying weapons therein. The 4th Circuit rejected that argument.

At the center of this case is defendant’s concern that he is a law abiding citizen who owns firearms and is allowed to carry them in his car on the highways of Virginia pursuant to the Second Amendment and a concealed weapons permit issued under Virginia law. He contends he should have the same right to possess loaded guns in his car when driving on the Blue Ridge Parkway.

Defendant argues the Blue Ridge Parkway is, in one respect, a road much like other roads in Virginia, bearing traffic which many travelers user as a highway between, for example, U.S. Routes 460 and 220 in the Roanoke area. But the Blue Ridge Parkway is not just a highway. While the parkway is in one sense a road, it is also a national park dotted with hiking trails, scenic overlooks, campgrounds and other attractions used by countless visitors. As such, the parkway is subject to federal law and regulation just as any other national park. To protect the safety of park visitors, the Department of the Interior has issued regulations concerning weapons, traps and nets in national parks. Lofton controls this case and compels denial of defendant’s motion for judgment of acquittal.

Defendant is convicted under 36 C.F.R. §§ 2.4(b) and 4.12.

U.S. v. Gettier (Urbanski, J.) No. 7:08po0024, March 25, 2008; USDC at Roanoke, Va. VLW 008-3-124, 8 pp.

 

[Dave P]

That really bites! What was the punishment?

 

[steveracer]

I used to carry there all the time. I had no idea.

 

[Regen]

I guess you'd have to be careful on any "parkway". For example, I know that the George Washington Parkway also travels through national parks.

Can't wait until the ruling is changed that allows carry in national parks.

 

[jad0110]

Can't wait until the ruling is changed that allows carry in national parks.

Or at a bare minimum, at least allow "transit" through National Parks via parkways like the Blue Ridge or GW.

I had no idea either :banghead: .

Stupid commies.

 

[Standing Wolf]

The defendant in Lofton argued, as defendant here does, that a national park was required to give notice of a prohibition against carrying weapons therein. The 4th Circuit rejected that argument.

Serfs are required to guess what all-knowing, all-powerful government wants.

 

[06]

It stinks but that is a national park. I was made very aware of that fact when leaving a Nat. Boy Scout Jam. at AP Hill(near DC) with my two sons. We stopped by the Petersburg Hist. Park. I asked the uniformed officer at the ticket gate what the law was concerning firearms in Va. She said to ask an officer inside. When we arrived at the parking area two armed park officers met us and asked if we were carrying. They said we were carrying concealled and guilty of such. I exclaimed no way because we asked prior to entering the park. Well they were nice and allowed us to unload them and place them into the trunk. I thought we were going to jail. Had we not been in uniform it might have been different. I still had a Colt 25 in my jacket pocket and carried it throughout the park. If you have never been there it is well worth your time(the park-lol). When hiking I have always carried-I just refuse to take other parents children(when I was in Scouting) into wilderness areas w/o being able to protect them. When hiking today I will be armed-no matter where, wc

 

[ForeignDude]

I'm not sure what the punishment was, but carrying a firearm in a national park is a felony IIRC. (Which means, of course, that the defendant's firearm rights are null)

I think (but don't quote me on this) that you can still travel on the highway with your weapon unloaded and in a (locked?) container. The issue in the referenced case involved a citizen carrying a loaded firearm on his person while "in" a national park.

BTW, the entire George Washington Memorial Parkway is managed by the National Parks Service. That means that wherever you happen to be on that road, you are "in" a national park. Watch it!

 

[Thin Black Line]

Here's a very serious question:

Can all those once state-owned toll-roads that have been recently bought
by private multi-national corporations now be considered "private property"
and have signs posted on them stating "No guns allowed"???

 

[CZ-100]

How were the guns found?

Did he agree to a search? Why?

Concealed is concealed...

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Question: So on "parkways", carry permit holders must follow the 1986 FOPA rule that the gun must unloaded and locked in the trunk, as long as possession is legal at point of origin and point of destination?

Two friends of my brother were killed by a carjacker at a park overlook about fifteen years ago. It sounds like the right to self defense stops at a park boundary and resumes after you leave.

How would "defense of necessity" apply?

 

[fletcher]

I thought this was common knowledge as the Blue Ridge Parkway is a National Park, but I guess not

All the more reason to push the changes to NPS policy.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

glad I checked this thread - I live near the Pisgah section of the BRP and had no idea. so unloaded and put away is OK?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

what was he carryng? a loaded hunting rifle is harder to excuse than a carry pistol

 

[hugh damright]

so unloaded and put away is OK?

"unloaded weapons may be possessed within a temporary lodging or mechanical mode of conveyance when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use."

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/julqtr/36cfr2.4.htm

 

[chris in va]

That's news to me. Wasn't aware BRP was in a National Park. Hmm.

 

[Deleted member 66305]

There needs to be a law that defines the interior of one's vehicle as having the same privilege regarding gun rights as one's home.

If the management company that runs the parking garage where I work decided to put a 30.06 sign at the entrance, I could not legally keep my gun in my car when I park there.

 

[basicblur]

Serfs are required to guess what all-knowing, all-powerful government wants.

Even if they won’t tell ya!

As one who lives only ‘bout 60 minutes away from the BRP, and used to spend quite a bit of time on both the BRP and Skyline Drive, I’d done quite a bit of research regarding gun laws in National Parks. I found a page run by the NPS on gun laws but it had only the usual “this website being updated” message-I noticed the updating notice was approximately 5 years old (must be tougher to update a website than I thought)!
I assume if it’s taking that long to update the website, obviously someone just doesn’t want you knowing what the laws are…
Was sitting at the Poor Farmer’s Market/Back Porch Deli having lunch one day (at the 58/BRP junction, ‘bout 100 yards from the BRP) when a couple of local deputies sat down next to me. Figuring since they work in such close proximity to the BRP they’d know, I asked them what the law was AFA weapons on the BRP and neither one of them could tell me!

So…we had the Park Service refusing to inform you, a couple of local deputies who didn’t know the laws (or wouldn’t volunteer the info), yet the fella that was caught was supposed to (despite lack of signs etc)? :banghead:
Think it was Charles Dickens that said, “The law is an ass”…this sounds like one of those cases…

BTW…while I only play a lawyer on the ‘Net, fer you folks unaware of the firearm policies in National Parks etc, last time I checked I believe you can carry a firearm in a National Park if:
1. You notify the ranger at the gate (how you supposed to do that on the BRP, as there is no “gate”-there are hundreds of public access points).
2. You unload the weapon and have it locked up (preferably outta the passenger compartment).
3. You store the ammunition/clip etc SEPARATELY from the weapon, probably also locked up somewhere outside the passenger compartment.

Do your own research, as I’m sure my posting is not exact, but at the time of my research doing the 3 things above “should” do a pretty good job of covering your ass? ‘Course, you could also probably disassemble the weapon also as an additional? step-or you could just do as I and avoid both the BRP and SD until they change the gun laws to allow CHP holders to carry.
It’s a shame that I have to avoid a place I used to love spending time at because the government won’t allow me to defend myself from predators of both the 2 and 4-legged variety.

 

[John Wayne]

So could you get around the law by driving an RV and claiming it is your home?

 

[RP88]

is it really a felony? Holy crap. And the '4.12' is the moving violation at the stop sign he got pulled for. Man, they went to town on this guy... No break at all.

hopefully he turns out alright.

 

[blackcash88]

So could you get around the law by driving an RV and claiming it is your home?

I highly doubt it. Same as trying that when driving through sh^tcago or DC.

 

[ForeignDude]

I'm not sure that one can assume every "parkway" is a no-loaded-gun zone. This only applies to those "parkways" managed by NPS or those considered part of a state park if your state prohibits concealed carry in state parks.

As for the status of an RV in a national park (i.e., "it's my home", and so forth), I would definitely check with an attorney, preferably two. If the case cited in the OP is an example of anything, it is that ignorance of the law is no defense, even when the "law" is an administrative regulation promulgated by a byzantine federal bureaucracy.

 

[rockinrussky]

Thanks for the heads up. I don't live in the area, but my friend and I were driving through that very same area yesterday, unaware that the law applied also to the highway itself. Whew, speaking of dodging a bullet...

 

[hugh damright]

So could you get around the law by driving an RV and claiming it is your home?

The law makes a distinction between an RV and a home:

"Weapons ... may be carried, possessed or used ...Within a residential dwelling. For purposes of this subparagraph only, the term ``residential dwelling'' means a fixed housing structure which is either the principal residence of its occupants, or is occupied on a regular and recurring basis by its occupants as an alternate residence or vacation home.

... weapons may be possessed within a temporary lodging or mechanical mode of conveyance when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use."

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/julqtr/36cfr2.4.htm

 

[blackcash88]

I like the thread title. Since it's a parkway, I'd always assumed it was parked and not blued.