VA CCW list published by Roanoke Times 3/11

Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, I'll play the optimist for now. You're right, in internet time, the database was available for a LONG, LONG time; darn near an eternity, however, it is NOW DOWN. This does reduce the number of opportunities for it to fall into the wrong hands. We just have to be vigilant about staying after their advertisers and pressing the RT and Landmark for a resolution. All of US rocked THEIR world today and I wish we could have seen the results of our actions in real-time. I promise this fire will re-ignite if they refuse to act. I will pursue the owners of Landmark (Frank Batten Jr. and Sr.) 'til my dying day. They may not give us ALL that we want, but they'll at least know our names and think twice in the future. We CANNOT and MUST NOT spin our wheels arguing with morons. You will never change a liberal's mind. They are incapable of critical thinking skills. We have to go after their pocketbooks and wound them financially. Only then will we have really won the war. Today was just the first battle.
 
Any good personal liability lawyers out there willing to take a class action libel suit against the newspaper?
It seems to me that they maliciuosly slandered 145,000 people by comparing them with sex offenders.
I think the reporter's own words establish his hostility and malace of forethought in making this comparison.

Then there is the endangerment angle, there is no way the Va state police could possibly know about all the retired officers, and Victims of serious abuse that have applied for a permit. To them its a serious security risk to have their name and current correct address reported.
 
Let's be sensible and rational. Don't visit Trejbal at his home or work or contact his family members. Cut off communication with the idiot. He's a smug troglodyte who views us as contemptible, human detritus; besides, he is just a VERY small fish. It's the money-handlers of the RT and Landmark we need to pursue. None of us need legal trouble when we were the ones offended in the first place. The legal problems need to be reserved for the RT and Landmark. I don't plan on losing my CHP over Trej-no-balls.

I happen to be a VCDL member and I would encourage anyone with such a notion to join and support this organization. Philip Van Cleave does an awesome job in situations such as these. He has the time, support, brains, and resources to bring down the legal hammer of God on these folks. We can do our part by calling and emailing the car dealers, banks, restaurants, etc. in Roanoke and the New River Valley.

www.vcdl.org
 
I don't know

You will never change a liberal's mind.

I don't know about that, I was a liberal for almost 30 years! I voted
for Jimmy Carter and every D I could until GW.

It was trying to buy a gun that turned me into a conservative.
I was pro gun as a liberal, because I thought the conservatives were "out to get me" and wanted to be able to fight back.

Todays "conservatives" are more like JFK then Barry Goldwater and todays "liberals" are more like Fidel Castro then Martin Luther King.

I think there is something else wrong with that Trejbal guy (or whatever his name is)
I think he has some kind of mental issue (above and beyond modern liberalism which is in itself a mental disorder)
Something like impulse control, obsessive personality disorder or anti-social/borderline autistic.

Yet I concur that modern liberals are a very strange lot, they think that the "neo-cons" are the new nazi party yet insist on disarming themselves, insist that only their enemies carry arms.....bizzare!

If I thought a large group was after me I would want more guns not less.
 
I don't know about that, I was a liberal for almost 30 years! I voted
for Jimmy Carter and every D I could until GW.

It was trying to buy a gun that turned me into a conservative.
I was pro gun as a liberal, because I thought the conservatives were "out to get me" and wanted to be able to fight back.

But see, that's my point. No one changed your mind. You changed your mind when you were ready. I think conservatives can do a little "seed planting" in a liberal's mind, but until that liberal is ready to apply common sense over "feel good" emotion, he'll stay a liberal. The change has to come from within. Outside forces only have a minimal impact.
 
Todays "conservatives" are more like JFK then Barry Goldwater and...

I don't know about that. An old Goldwater quote, a favorite of mine, sticks in mind long after the words were uttered and perhaps is worth recalling:

I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution or that have failed their purpose, or that impose on the people an unwarranted financial burden. I will not attempt to discover whether legislation is "needed" before I have first determined whether it is constitutionally permissible. And if I should later be attacked for neglecting my constituents "interests, " I shall reply that I was informed that their main interest is liberty and that in that cause I am doing the very best I can." [Barry Goldwater]

Cheers! beerchug.gif
 
Thanks, What a great Forum

I actually just found out about this incredible forum yesterday afternoon- from a comment in Trejbal's blog section. I was alerted to all this nonsense through VCDL's email alert, and am amazed at what an organized effort this forum put forth to protect Virginians privacy. I managed to send out a great many emails and made several calls today as well. It was extremely encouraging to know that many more were doing the same.

CNGERMS- Excellent form letter(s), I love the thought of hundreds of the same letter, from different addresses going to these sources. I used them several times today.

I just thought I'd introduce myself, and I truly am impressed with your forum, and activism. I look forward to joining you in future discussions.
 
am amazed at what an organized effort this forum put forth to protect Virginians privacy

Not to slight this forum, but THR gets only partial credit for the apparent success. This was big news today on a lot of pro-2A boards, not just this one. A lot of people and groups were involved.
 
Id be really interested to know how many people contacted these people in some way today. I am sure there is no way to tell, but I would be very interested to know how many phone calls, etc it took to get them to notice...a 100, 1000, 5000, 10000, etc...
 
List officially removed, statement posted

Well looks like a difference was made.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/breaking/wb/108384

Concealed-carry list removed from Roanoke.com
The list of Virginia weapons permit holders was linked to an editorial column about open government.

By Laurence Hammack

One day after igniting a firestorm of criticism, The Roanoke Times decided Monday to remove from its Web site a list of Virginians licensed to carry concealed weapons.

The list, published as part of an opinion column about open records that ran Sunday in the newspaper’s New River Valley Current section, was taken down Monday afternoon out of concern that it might include names that should not have been made public, president and publisher Debbie Meade said.

Although she had received no official word from Virginia State Police, which provided the data at the paper’s request, Meade said she was concerned enough about complaints from readers to act out of an abundance of caution.

“Our concern is that if the information should have been protected and it wasn’t, then we don’t want to run it,” Meade said.

The list, which included both the names and street addresses of about 135,000 Virginians with permits to carry concealed weapons, was linked to a column by editorial writer Christian Trejbal that ran in the Current section.

Hundreds of readers complained on the newspaper’s message board and to a gun-rights group that publishing the names of concealed-weapons permit holders violated the privacy of law-abiding citizens and gave potential criminals information that would help them find victims.

“By publishing that list, you’ve created a windfall for criminals,” said Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League . Van Cleave and others argued that convicted felons, barred from buying guns at stores, could use the list to select homes to burglarize in their search for firepower.

Another concern was for the safety of domestic abuse victims, who might want to carry concealed weapons for their own protection but don’t want an abusive former partner to know where they live. With those addresses now public, “the stalkers and the rapists and those people are more empowered,” Van Cleave said.

Similar concerns were shared by the director of interactive learning for The Poynter Institute, a journalism think tank in Florida.

“You could take that information and you could do a lot with it,” said Howard Finberg. “I would say it raises some serious concerns about the unintended consequences of such actions.”

Critics have also questioned why Trejbal chose such a polarizing topic as guns to illustrate a column meant to discuss Sunshine Week, a national initiative to promote the importance of open government and public records.

“Could the point he wanted to make — highlighting Sunshine Week — been done in a different way that would not raise the potential of someone doing something with that list?” Finberg asked.

Meade said the pros and cons of running the list were discussed in advance.

The decision to publish the list was made, with Meade’s knowledge, by Editorial Page Editor Dan Radmacher, who was out of the office Monday.

“I think Dan would say that we probably underestimated the kind of response that this would prompt,” Meade said. In hindsight, she said, “I think we could have asked for a broader and deeper discussion.”

However, Meade said heated opposition to Trejbal’s column was not a factor in pulling the list.

A written statement released by the newspaper stressed that the decision to remove the list was made “out of a sense of caution and concern for the public” that was based on questions about whether some names should have been included.

The newspaper is in the process of asking state police to verify the data and clarify whether it can be made public, Meade said.

It was not clear Monday exactly what category of names should possibly not have been released.

But if a revised list is ever published, Van Cleave said his organization is already discussing ways to fight back, which could possibly include boycotting major advertisers and making public as much personal information about Trejbal and other editors as the group can find.

“If you’re going to light us up like a Christmas tree and invade our privacy, then we want you to know what it’s like to live in a glass house,” Van Cleave said.
Trejbal, who said he has received threats from some angry readers, said he was disappointed that “so many people have missed the point about the column. It was not fundamentally about guns. It was fundamentally about open government.”

While expressing sympathy for concealed-weapons permit holders who might have been put in a difficult position by publication of the list, Trejbal added that information about individual permit holders is readily available at any courthouse.

“Did we make it easier [to obtain the information]? Yes,” he said. “But it’s still a public record.”

But Trejbal’s “mean-spirited” column did more than expedite fishing expeditions, Van Cleave said.

It also unfairly compared law-abiding gun owners to sex offenders, he said, by noting that “a state that eagerly puts sex offender data online complete with an interactive map could easily do the same with gun permits, but it does not.”

As Dale Hawley wrote on the newspaper’s message board, such a comment ignores the fact that people who apply to carry a concealed weapon for legitimate reasons of self-protection must undergo background checks to ensure they have no criminal record.

“That you don’t understand this is, at best, terrible ignorance and at worst smacks of prejudice and yellow journalism,” Hawley wrote on the online forum, which had generated more than 300 comments by midday Monday.

Another poster wrote: “I’ve moved twice to get away from a violent ex. Now I have to move again. I really appreciate you publishing my address. Gee, thanks.”

Van Cleave said he has received more than 500 angry calls and e-mails, including two from state legislators.

Past gun-related controversies have been “like a firecracker” by comparison, he said. “This one is like a thermonuclear bomb.”
 
Van Cleave said he has received more than 500 angry calls and e-mails, including two from state legislators.

Past gun-related controversies have been “like a firecracker” by comparison, he said. “This one is like a thermonuclear bomb.

I am damn proud to have been part of this, I now can go to bed tonight knowing I did something productive!

Whats that saying "you mess with the bull and you'll get horns"...
 
I'm still amazed that this guy is "disappointed that people didn't understand that his article was about open government". Sheesh doesn't he even read his own stuff?

I am damn proud to have been part of this, I now can go to bed tonight knowing I did something productive!
Hah, same here JL! But we still need to keep in mind that...
-these people have not, in fact, apologized.
-they have not promised to never do this again.
-Mr. Trejbal is still gainfully employed there.
-CCW permit information is still an "open book" and this legislature needs to be changed.

The job isn't -quite- finished yet.
Damn fine start to it though!
 
I think he is saying that he doesnt care, in a politically correct way. He seemed to feel very negative towards CCW holders in his response to emails and blog postings. I am pretty sure he used is position of influence in the media to single us out and exploit us.
 
However, Meade said heated opposition to Trejbal’s column was not a factor in pulling the list.

A written statement released by the newspaper stressed that the decision to remove the list was made “out of a sense of caution and concern for the public” that was based on questions about whether some names should have been included.

The newspaper is in the process of asking state police to verify the data and clarify whether it can be made public, Meade said.


Sorry guys, it sounds like the editors still don't get it. It doesn't matter what we say because they are going to do what they want to do. Keep hitting them and especially their sponsors. Hit the wallet and everything else crumples.
 
I'm wandering around the web, posting this:

The list is, at the moment, down.

We have Victory, in Phase I.
I have a suggestion for Phase II:

Cry "ZUMBO!", and let slip the Dogs of Economics.

If everybody on that list picks one advertiser and expresses displeasure, Mr. Trejbal might find his name changed to "Blackball". Something along the lines of,

"Dear Sir / Madam:
I have noticed that you advertise in the Roanoke Times. As long as you advertise with them, and they continue to employ Christian Trejbal, I will assume that you don't want my business. I'll take my money somewhere that doesn't support invasion of my privacy.

Sincerely,

While I was composing that, I randomly clicked an ad on the Times page. Copy and paste, and off to their contact address it went.
 
There is a small portion of the list still available in the cache of search engines. Not many people, but some. I have already notified VCDL.org

John
 
Well looks like a difference was made.
I'm not sure I would declare victory just yet. It certainly doesn't sound like the editorial staff of the newspaper has any remorse over publishing the database or thinks it was a mistake to do so. To me it just sounds like their legal liability in publishing it is being investigated. I see no remorse, only legal caution.
 
Thanks, What a great Forum ...I actually just found out about this incredible forum yesterday afternoon- from a comment in Trejbal's blog section. I was alerted to all this nonsense through VCDL's email alert, and am amazed at what an organized effort this forum put forth to protect Virginians privacy. I managed to send out a great many emails and made several calls today as well. It was extremely encouraging to know that many more were doing the same.

CNGERMS- Excellent form letter(s), I love the thought of hundreds of the same letter, from different addresses going to these sources. I used them several times today.

I just thought I'd introduce myself, and I truly am impressed with your forum, and activism. I look forward to joining you in future discussions.

Thanks, Grt Esc, and welcome! We're glad to have you.

Not to slight this forum, but THR gets only partial credit for the apparent success. This was big news today on a lot of pro-2A boards, not just this one. A lot of people and groups were involved.

Yes, we understand this was a collective effort and that many folks and blogs contributed to today's success. We don't feel a bit slighted. The folks at THR are glad to share the credit. I prefer to think of it as, "Second Amendment proponents as a whole gave elitism a whippin' today!"

I don't expect the editorial staff at the RT to EVER get it. Like I said before, you won't change their minds or shame them. They are incapable of critical thinking skills. They have a leftist agenda which is pursued while wearing blinders and demonstrating contempt towards our ilk. If by some miracle they DO actually get it, it will only be because the 2nd Amendment crowd deeply wounded their pocketbooks. Keep calling and emailing the advertisers listed in this thread. When Mr. JD Got-rocks calls the editorial staff and threatens to pull his advertising dollars, they might just get a whiff of their own ignorance and ask Trejbal to clean out his cubicle. I have no doubt that if I were to damage the reputation of my company as Trejbal has, they wouldn't even give me TIME to clean out my desk. I would be escorted from the building.
 
I don't like having my name/address posted in the phone book, online, or on land deeds in the county courthouse. Sure as hell don't want to be listed as a CCW holder.

As noted above, this is a good argument for the literal interpretation of "shall not be infringed." If I'm not a felon, etc. etc. it's not the govt's business how I decide to carry a firearm.

It IS on the other hand, MY BUSINESS to have a say about how the govt. decides to infringe upon my RKBA. A public listing of permit holders, and requiring a permit in the first place would be infringements.
 
And this is a good reminder of the false logic in assuming antis are "well intentioned but misguided". They know neither honor nor responsibility. They will gleefully put you and your's in danger to further their agenda.

One look at the responses by that smarmy reprobate is evidence enough.
 
I emailed Matt Drudge of Drudge Report fame the following letter. I hope he'll oblige us and give this issue great legs.

Dear Mr. Drudge,

In case you are not aware, a major battle for America’s 2nd Amendment freedoms took place in the Commonwealth of Virginia over the past 48 hours. Second Amendment proponents across the country would like to respectfully ask your assistance in bringing this national issue to light given the public prominence and political force of your website.

If I may, I’d like to offer a brief synopsis of what occurred. On Sunday morning, March 11, 2007, the Roanoke Times editorial staff and one writer in particular, Christian Trejbal, wrote an op-ed piece claiming to extol the virtues of Sunshine Week. The Sunshine Week extravaganza is labeled as a celebration of open government. Well, many Virginians were NOT celebrating with Mr. Trejbal soon after his article was posted online (http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/trejbal/wb/108160 ).

Mr. Trejbal’s article transparently and maliciously offered the “so-called” right of all people to know which Virginia residents possessed Concealed Handgun Permits (CHPs) as evidence that open government was a good thing. He equated this right with the right to access public databases of convicted sex offenders, and then proceeded to link a searchable CHP database hosted on the Roanoke Times servers in his article. Mr. Trejbal acquired the CHP master list from the Virginia State Police for a fee of $100.00 via the FOIA. The CHP database lists the full legal names and HOME addresses of all Virginia CHP holders. This database included many Virginians who are retired police officers, judges, prosecutors, prison guards, crime victims, witnesses called in criminal trials, and civilians in hiding from abusive ex-spouses/ex-lovers. I believe the residential address of one Virginia Supreme Court justice as well as Senator Jim Webb’s home address was listed as well although I did not personally see them on the list. The database also provided a shopping/go-to list to a multitude of criminals seeking to acquire firearms without legally being able to do so. The list has now been removed from the Roanoke Times website after a firestorm of protest.

Many 2nd Amendment proponents would like to eliminate these master lists or, at least, exempt them from the FOIA. We would, also, like to see Virginia’s General Assembly make the publishing or release of such databases a criminal act.

If you are willing to assist us in bringing this national issue to light, we would appreciate your help more than you know. We feel the Roanoke Times has recklessly endangered many lives with their stunt; more than 135,000 lives to be exact.

Thank you for your time and consideration of our request. Have a great week.

Sincerely,
JB
 
Not to slight this forum, but THR gets only partial credit for the apparent success. This was big news today on a lot of pro-2A boards, not just this one. A lot of people and groups were involved.

I agree, it was all the forums as a collective that had a HUGE part in this. And also thanks to the non-Virginians that also chimed in with letters and emails to help us out.

Thanks all!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top