VA - More on Open Carry - Some good, some flak (or is it "flake"?)

[Ironbarr]

gunsmith...

Paladin?

 

[Ironbarr]

Some more...

http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=38236&paper=61&cat=109

Gun Owners Emboldened by New Laws
Gun show coming to Fairfax; guns ride on hips “unconcealed,†out and about.
By David Harrison
July 22, 2004


On July 31, thousands of gun enthusiasts from all over the area will descend on Fairfax County to browse among 1,000 vendors selling tens of thousands of firearms at the Dulles Expo Center in Chantilly. The event, billed as "The Nation's Gun Show" by its organizers, is the first such event in Fairfax County in 40 years and one of the biggest gun shows the state has seen, said Steven Elliott, president of C&E Gun Shows, the Blacksburg company which is organizing the event.

"I've been doing this for 17 years and this is by far the highest quality show that I've ever produced," said Elliott. "It's going to be interesting because we've never been up there and we don't know what to expect."

The first-of-its-kind gun show in Northern Virginia is one of several instances of muscle flexing by gun rights activists recently. In the past few weeks, several members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a pro-gun organization, have been openly carrying their weapons in restaurants and Starbucks, which, in some cases, has led other diners to call the police.

A party of 13 diners, several carrying visible guns, was approached by police officers at a Champps Restaurant in Reston a couple weeks ago. Jim Snyder was among the 13.

"[Police] talked to us probably for 30 seconds, then they left our immediate area, then they spent another 20 or 30 minutes trying to figure out whether what we were doing was legal and then they left," recalled Snyder, a Kingstowne resident who was carrying his gun at the restaurant. "I think the police did a very good job."

Snyder's experience and a similar one at a Starbucks store seem to have mobilized gun owners, said Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League.

"The incident that happened at Starbucks probably alerted a whole lot of people to the concept of open carry," he said. "Some gun owners looked at that incident and said, 'You know, I need to exercise this right.'"

Van Cleave, a software programmer from Richmond, said the incidents were not planned. "We haven't been coordinating."

"It's definitely a response," said Darrin Guthrie, the owner of All American Guns in Fairfax. "It's because a few jackasses are making a big deal about it so everybody's pissed off."

Guthrie, a concealed permit holder, said he and other county gun owners have been carrying weapons "for years."

"Nothing's happened," he said. "I don't see what the big deal is."
Snyder said he was also surprised that people have all of a sudden become concerned about gun-toting diners. He's been taking his gun to restaurants for nine years, he said, without any problems.

But Jim Sollo, a Springfield resident who runs the advocacy group Virginians Against Handgun Violence, said the incidents of gun-carrying residents concerns him. "We've felt that the gun guys have sort of been eager to show that they can now carry their guns legally."

Restaurant managers have also voiced concern about seeing guns in their establishments. Some have posted signs near the door telling patrons that guns are not allowed inside.

"Whenever that issue comes up we get a lot of communication from our members stressing the importance of trying to separate the two," said Lynne Breaux, executive director of the Restaurant Association of Metropolitan Washington. "We are opposed to guns in bars and that's always been the position of the restaurant association."

Snyder sees some hypocrisy in position of managers who oppose guns in their restaurants and bars.

"Those restaurateurs don't seem to have a problem selling alcohol to somebody who is going to get in his car and drive and there's a demonstrated problem with that," noted Snyder, who says he doesn't drink. "This is just posturing they're doing about law-abiding citizens lawfully carrying firearms where there have been no problems."

ALTHOUGH IT'S always been legal for Virginians to clip a visible gun to their belts before going out in public, gun advocates celebrated a victory in the General Assembly this year when lawmakers approved a measure, House Bill 530, prohibiting local governments from writing their own gun rules. Local governments in the Commonwealth now can only follow the state's gun rules and not impose new ones on their own.

In Fairfax County, that means the Fairfax County police have dropped the 40-year-old practice of conducting background checks on potential gun buyers. County residents who want to buy guns now only go through a state police background check, which is required by federal law. Although the two background tests duplicated each other, the county test took up to three days to complete while the state test only took several minutes, which had the practical effect of creating a waiting period for Fairfax County gun buyers. Under the new law, the county must also destroy all the records it kept when performing background checks.

Elliott, the gun show organizer, said the abolition of Fairfax County's de facto waiting period drew him to hold his first show in the county.

"Everybody's wanted to go up there [to Fairfax] for years and years," he said. "We've worked on this for years and we were finally lucky enough to be able to get some favorable legislation passed."

Arlington County also performed its own background checks, said Matt Martin, a spokesman for the Arlington County Police Department.

"There were so few stores that sold handguns in Arlington that we weren't doing that many [checks]," he said. "All in all it had no practical effect in Arlington."

In Alexandria, however, the new state law replaced a city rule that made it illegal to openly carry a gun in public in the City of Alexandria.

"It appears the Alexandria ordinance is probably invalid," said Bryan Porter, assistant Commonwealth's Attorney in Alexandria. "It's still there on the books but I don't think we'll prosecute it because of the new state code section."

But Porter, who served as a police officer in the city before becoming a prosecutor, said he has never heard of an instance where somebody was prosecuted for carrying a gun in public.

"To me that means it's unlikely to cause a whole big deal here," he said, adding that it was possible that gun rights activists might carry their guns openly in Alexandria to challenge to city ordinance. "For the next week or two there might be a slight upswing in the number."

DEL. CHAP PETERSEN (D-37) said there hasn't been much debate over gun laws in the General Assembly over the past few years.

"The basic shorthand is that when it comes to firearms, state law prevails," he said.

When he first went to Richmond in 2002, he was assigned to the House Committee on Militia and Police where members of the audience often openly carried their guns inside the hearing rooms of the General Assembly building. At first, Petersen said he was surprised.

"It was kind of like something out of 'Gunsmoke,'" he said. "I'm not used to seeing people show up at public meetings with Colt 45s strapped to their belt."

Over the years, however, he said he got "inured" to the sight.
"They're always there and they're always packing heat," he said. "It's a different culture."

Petersen, who is running for Lieutenant Governor is 2005, voted in favor of the bill preventing local governments from passing their own rules on guns.
Even though it's always been legal to carry guns openly in Virginia, the practice has some lawmakers worried.

"If you are in a place of business, in a restaurant, and someone walks through the door obviously with a gun you cannot distinguish whether they're an emotionally stable, law abiding citizen or whether it's a psycho about to commit a mass murder," said Del. Ken Plum (D-36).

Under the law, it would be legal for gang members to walk around with a guns visibly swinging from thei belts. But Martin, the Arlington County police spokesman, said police officers were not particularly concerned about gang members following the law.

"We're not worried about a gang member legally using a gun we're worried about a gang member illegally using a gun," he said. "Criminals who are going to use firearms aren't going to follow the law anyway."
Nevertheless, he said, police officers would prefer seeing fewer guns around.

"Anytime there's a firearm in the picture ... it makes officers a little more nervous," he said. Arlington police officers have responded to several calls in the past few years of gun advocates openly carrying their guns into public places such as libraries, he added.

"Just looking at it from a public safety standpoint, fewer guns out in the public is most likely a safer situation than more guns."

THE NEXT LEGISLATIVE battle over guns is likely to be over whether people with concealed weapons permits can carry a concealed weapon in a restaurant or bar. Right now permit holders must wear their guns openly if they want to go to places that serve alcohol whereas they can conceal their guns when they go just about anywhere else. The only places where guns are not allowed at all are in courts, schools and places of worship. Owners of private businesses can also refuse to serve people who carry guns.

Van Cleave, the president of Virginia Citizens Defense League, said it makes no sense to prohibit concealed permit holders from concealing their weapons in a restaurant or a bar.

"Concealed permit holders are by definition the most law abiding citizens of Virginia," he said, noting that concealed permit holders must not only pass a background check but also pass a safety training course.

An effort to allow concealed permit holders hide their weapons in restaurants and bars died in committee in 2003.

State Sen. Janet Howell has introduced legislation to ban all weapons from bars and restaurants, whether concealed or not, but her bills have also died in committee.

"It came close to passing out of the Senate's Courts of Justice Committee," she said. "It came closer than we expected."
She vowed to keep trying.

It is unclear at this point how the movement among gun owners to openly carry their weapons will affect the General Assembly. Plum and Howell said they've been deluged with calls and e-mails from angry constituents urging them to make gun-toting illegal.

Van Cleave said the attention being paid to gun laws could mobilize the public to support his efforts to allow concealed permit holders to bring their guns into restaurants and bars. But it could also galvanize the public for more gun control.

"It could go either way," he said.

To Sollo, however, the recent efforts of gun rights activists set the stage for tighter run rules in Virginia.

"If the gun boys are going to push the envelope on this, at some point, we think they're going to tick off the general public," he said.

Re Places of worship... he didn't add "unless for good reason".

-Andy

 

[FedDC]

Wild is right, these knuckleheads that feel a need to flaunt their carry have done more to set back the CCW movement than anything I have seen in years. Just wait and you will see other states passing laws against this very thing based on the fear of their people... They may be sheep to us, but they are voters to the politicos and that is what matters. It is another fine example of gun owners cutting our own noses off to spite our face. Any idiot could see that this action would offend people who would then complain to the business and to their elected officials...who read the paper and do not want to be assosciated with gun toting wierdos as the paper will undoubtedly term them... See where this is going? Restrictions anyone!

 

[bpisler]

It's the end of the world,people wearing a pistol in the open for all to see.All i can see is women and children running for their lives.BTW ive carried in the open for 12 years here in arizona,no one has every run from me screaming "he's got a gun". Maybe people here in arizona have more common sense than other states but i really think most people are not scared of guns like some people think.

 

[FedDC]

Many of the people in and around the DC area, as in N VA are the living personification of sheeple. Seriously, I am in LE and it is obvious from the badge, cuffs, etc and I still had a lady say " I can't believe that they let you carry those into government buildings" a few days ago... and what was she talking about? Did she see my gun? No, she saw my folding benchmade knive cliped to my pocket. If she got that concerned about a knife, think what she would have done if it were a gun? That attitude, while silly is a very dominant one in this area and as ludicrious as it may be, they vote and have political pull just like the rest of us.

 

[Daedalus]

IMHO Open carry should be legal but you shouldn't do it.

 

[Ironbarr]

Look for the poll on "Open Carry - Yes or No" coming up shortly.

 

[Ellery Holt]

I read the second 'article' and when finished thought, "Wow, WildAlaska could have written that." I never really expected him to quote from it though. THAT'S funny.

 

[crucible]

I live in NORVA, and have a CCW permit, and carry concealed for my own reasons. I beleive that reasonable people can disagree on this, but.....

That said, Mr. Van Cleve said it well:

If one is afraid of exercising a right because that right may be taken away from him, I submit that right has already been taken away.

And he's absolutely right.

Cruc

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Only a few people here seem to be pro gun.

The rest are just varying degrees of anti gun.

 

[cracked butt]

I'm all for open carry. Others might not like it, but then again I have to tolerate the free speach and ideas of others that I might not like or approve of.

Right now, living in one of the (what is it 4 or 6) states that doesn't allow any tools for self defence, I'm in a position to tell those in other states that do have the right, to not complain about it, you're very lucky to have it.

 

[Diggler]

I don't carry openly except for rare brief occassions... like going to and from work. I get gas in the early morning at pay-at-the-pump, and it's dark, so my black stainless .45 isn't noticed, and I try to keep it out of line-of-sight of most people. I don't go in to the store with it, #1 because I don't need the hassle and #2 we're not supposed to have firearms on company property (which is why I park on the street) but if someone from work saw me packing right before work it could cause problems.

I think that if we knew that they wouldn't outlaw open carry because of people seeing you carrying openly, it could be good. It could help desensitize people towards guns. Remember how non-gory the old horror movies were, then they started adding more blood and gore, and it doesn't even bother most people now. If you put something like Evil Dead back in the 40's or so, you'd have women fainting in the theater.

Maybe after soccer mommies survive dozens of 'close encounters' with people they know are carrying guns, they will eventually feel less threatened and become apathetic towards it.

Then again, they could just ban the practice because of it, but that's the risk that's being taken.

 

[Mulder]

The folks whining here need to calm down.

Open carry is a fundamental Right of a Free people and I'm glad to see Virginians exercising it.

As for those they want to become defensive on this issue, this is exactly what the gun-grabbers want. Ten years ago, the same folks were probably arguing something to the effect of "CCW??? Are you NUTS? If you try to pass laws allowing people to carry guns, there will be a backlash and they will then just pass laws banning all of our guns!." Now we are hearing the same crap today in regards to open carry.


Look at the facts people. Virginia just passed as many pro-gun bills as I can ever remember a state passing at one time. Ohio and Missouri just enacted CCW with massive majorities in the legislature. Do you this is happening because a fringe minority is working behind the scenes to make it happen? No. It's happening because most people in this country are pro-gun. If you don't beleive this, look at what happened electorally the last time the feds passed gun control, or when governors vetoed CCW bills.

Do you people really think Virginia is going to start 'cracking down' on gunowners simply because a few statists newspaper journalists have a problem with open carry?

Actually, the trend is the other way. Alaska just went open/concealed carry without a permit last year. One house of the New Hampshire legislature passed a bill to do so this year. And some legislators in Utah are going to introduce legislation to do so.

We are winning the battle at the state level. But I suppose that some "gunowners" would rather the VCDL become more like the Mass gun owners group that recently supported "compromise" gun control in that state. The antis got a permanent AWB and gunowners got a 90-day grace period for some scheme instead of 60. BFD. The truth is that VCDL is the most effective grass roots gun organization. I fully support their tactics.

Let them try to ban open carry there. It will lose in the legislature, and we will pick up more seats as a result.

 

[JohnBT]

"Many of the people in and around the DC area, as in N VA are the living personification of sheeple."

First you say the folks carrying openly are "knuckleheads" and now most of the rest are "sheeple."

I'm curious, is there anybody up that way you like?

John...VCDL member

 

[Wildalaska]

The rest are just varying degrees of anti gun.

And we (the varying degrees of anti gunners) are the ones who are winning the battle to ENLARGE gun rights....

Why?

Becasue we arent scaring the voters....

Alaska just went open/concealed carry without a permit last year.

You cant compare Alaska to Virginai demographically or socially..

And people sure as hell dont open carry in Anchorage


WildtheantigunnerAlaska

 

[ScottS]

And we (the varying degrees of anti gunners) are the ones who are winning the battle to ENLARGE gun rights....

Why?

Becasue we arent scaring the voters....

Hmmm...let's evaluate this assertion objectively, shall we?

1. VCDL is an active proponent of open carry. They regularly have meetings at restaraunts where everyone open carries. They go out of their way to help educate PD's on the legality of open carry. Their president, Phil Van Cleave, open carries on a regular basis.

2. VA gunowners are currently celebrating what was perhaps their best legislative year, ever. Reciprocity, no more one gun/month, preemption, etc. That legistative agenda was actively pursued by VCDL. One article openly states:

...Virginia passed more pro-gun laws than any other state this spring - a statistic local lawmakers say verifies the commonwealth's commitment to protecting the rights of its law-abiding gun owners.

Legislators approved 15 pro-gun laws, spurring shouts of praise from the National Rifle Association.

So...open carrying gun owners, supported by a highly effective grass-roots advocacy group, bring about more pro-gun laws in a single year than any other state...and you assert that it's you who is winning the battle to enlarge gun rights...?

Doesn't pass the smell test to me, there, Widlfacts?whatarefacts?Alaska.

Scott

 

[spartacus2002]

I'm curious, is there anybody up that way you like?

The Cato Institute

 

[Wildalaska]

Hmmm...let's evaluate this assertion objectively, shall we?

Thats virtually impossible from extremists on both sides of the issue

So...open carrying gun owners, supported by a highly effective grass-roots advocacy group, bring about more pro-gun laws in a single year than any other state...and you assert that it's you who is winning the battle to enlarge gun rights...?

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha...I suggest a rfresher course in logic

Guy carrys openly in resteraunt...pro gun laws passed...ergo open carry is winning the gun rigfhts battle...



Get real..just because gun owners (of all stripes I may add including such "traitors" as meself) excersize disproportionate influence in legislative battles does not mean that the tide cant turn....

And turn it will, if the general "sheeple" public (golly how superior we are to those bleating soccer mommys) gets annoyed enough watching cocked and locked 45s at Starbucks.

And btw...the legislative gains are made by reasoned and rational debate instead of screaming "look at me"

WildidontneedtoshowoffAlaska

 

[ScottS]

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha...I suggest a rfresher [sic] course in logic

Guy carrys [sic] openly in resteraunt [sic]...pro gun laws passed...ergo open carry is winning the gun rigfhts [sic] battle...

What I said was, VCDL is an pro-open carry advocacy group that is, in large measure, directly responsible for the pro-gun agenda passed by the VA legislature. No amount of distortion on your part will change that.

And btw...the legislative gains are made by reasoned and rational debate instead of screaming "look at me"

Oh, please, please, Mr WidlAlaska, tell us more about "how a bill becomes law."

Scott

 

[Mulder]

The VA legislature isn't going to ban open carry because of all this "outrage" over it.

(Keep in mind that this "outrage" is only about 1% of the population. Rabid anti-gunners in the media and politics are the only ones complaining).

The only thing legislatively to come out of this will be that Virginia will eventually pass a law "allowing" concealed carry in restaurants.

As for the folks that think we "gunowners" shouldn't "show off", it's our Right to open carry. Period. We are winning the battle, and now is not the time to become defensive.

 

[JohnBT]

Alaska's population in 2002 = 643,786

Virginia's population in 2002 = over 7,000,000

Hey, of course you don't go around yelling "Look at me." The odds are there wouldn't be anybody around to look at you.

Do y'all yodel or something to get your neighbor's attention?

According to a recent VCDL e-mail, the Commonwealth's Attorney General is looking into whether a business owner can legally ban guns.

JohnBT

 

[Wildalaska]

What I said was, VCDL is an pro-open carry advocacy group that is, in large measure, directly responsible for the pro-gun agenda passed by the VA legislature. No amount of distortion on your part will change that.

Back it up my friend...back it up with facts....

Oh, please, please, Mr WidlAlaska, tell us more about "how a bill becomes law."

Sigh...ah yes the ad hominems, the sarcastic referneces to my universally bad typing, the childishness of it all...

WildalwaysdebatingextremistsfrombothsidesAlaska

 

[Ironbarr]

What is good about a bad law that everyone obeys?

What is bad about a good law that everyone doesn't use?

WildAlaska: May I invite you to http://vcdl.org whereupon you may find some info useful to your thoughts? And while there, please sign up for the VA-Alert email list - whereupon you will receive "flash" messages re the efforts of those, both pro and con, concerning firearms/laws/actions.

Thanks,
-Andy

 

[cropcirclewalker]

I think there a lots of anti-gunner types on this forum. Closeted.

A supreme court justice out here in MO once said, "A right not asserted is a right waived."

Makes sense to me. Use it or lose it.

I never fail to be dazzled on these threads. This is an alleged pro-gun fourm. We all know that any gun control law is unconstitutional.

Laws prohibiting concealed carry are unconstitutional. Heres a flash......Laws permitting concealed carry are unconstitutional.

All laws, prohibiting or permitting concealed carry are unconstitutional.

If all our gun control laws were constitutional then we would all be carrying concealed and everybody would know it. If everybody was carrying and everybody else knew it, then why would we bother to carry concealed?

Ashamed of our pieces?

There are bunches of antis on this forum.
Antis or Weenies.

 

[Wildalaska]

We all know that any gun control law is unconstitutional.

We do? wow! Authotiry please, case citiations included. That means that the kid who just got out of the can for raping and murdering a child can have a machine gun..I feel more free!

Laws prohibiting concealed carry are unconstitutional. Heres a flash......Laws permitting concealed carry are unconstitutional.

Really? Authority please, citiations included, and not just some cut and paste from extremist literature....

BTW, since all those laws are unconstituional, I assume you paradfe around with your machine gun....

WildwontbotherwiththenamecallingAlaska