VA - More on Open Carry - Some good, some flak (or is it "flake"?)

[EricOKC]

FedDC

Since you have such a problem with open carry, when can we expect you to stop carrying openly?

After all, since you know so much more than the rest of us, you should set an example.

 

[FedDC]

I do not carry openly unless a warrant is being served in which case I use a level 2 retention holster and pay close attention to weapon retention issues.

Open carry is like overt body armor, it negates a lot of the tactical advantage of the armor and ends up getting you shot in the head. Like I said, carry however you want but concealed when in public does provide a LOT of tactical advantages.

 

[EricOKC]

If you dont carry openly then you're obviously not a uniformed officer.

When the uniformed cops no longer carry openly, your arguments may have merit. Until then, they perpetuate the myth that only the police have the proper training and skill. As others have pointed out, your badge does not give you magical powers or instantly make you somehow superior to the rest of us.

In some things, like weapons retention for example, you may have more skill and training than I. In my chosen field, the computer industry, I assure you I am substantially more competent than you. Using your logic of course, your FIRST Amendment rights of free speech should be restricted unless and until you prove a level of competence equal to mine and you change your profession.

 

[sendec]

If you insist on using the analogy of uniformed police officers as being comparable to open carrying civilians you have to acknowledge the fact that approximately 25% of LEOs shot are shot with their own guns.

However I was told that the use of LEOs as an open carry analog was specious as they "look for trouble" which presumably civilian open carriers would not. However, no one addressed the experience of armored car guards, bank guards and gun shop staff, all of which are typically armed and all of which have a higher than average rate of victimization by armed criminals.

If they are'nt detered by armed cops and armed guards, I'll be interested in why you think they'll be deterred by an open carrying citizen.

 

[EricOKC]

I am not the one who brought up the comparison. I simply continued with it.

There are reasons to carry openly, and there are reasons to carry concealed. Either way, it is my position, and the position apparently of the Commonwealth of Virginia and in fact the US Constitution, that the individual is the one who should make that decision.

When one group presumes to dictate to the rest what they shall and shall not do, especially when that group is ostensibly supposed to answer to the rest, it calls into question the real goal of that group. Put more succinctly, when cops tell me I should not be allowed to carry in public, I question their motives.

The fact that it makes the job of the police officer more difficult is irrelevant. The fact that it may make some soccer mom uncomfortable is irrelevant. As others have pointed out, it made people uncomfortable to see blacks sitting in the front of the bus at one time.

My rights are not dependent upon your comfort.

 

[sendec]

Actually, they are. None of our rights are without condition. You have no more right to impose yourself on the public than anyone else. Its not all about you.

 

[Mr. James]

Hmmmm. "The High Road." Nice to see we're starting to steer back on to it with posts like Roadrunner's, mtnbkr's, JohnBT's. Hope to see some of you this weekend. I'll be wearing an old The Firing Line "Molon Labe" T-shirt.

I've open carried throughout Virginia, especially when traveling. I've open carried for years throughout Fairfax - yep, into Starbucks, into Home Depot, into Giant Foods, Stop -N- Robs, the library, etc. I'm discreet as I can be, use body position and my right arm to minimize exposure to others. The sidearm has been noticed, but, with one glaring exception, no one has set up a cry of "Alarum!!" The vast, vast majority of people simply do not notice.

And yes, I do go about in Condition Yellow (or higher). Anyone snatching at my sidearm is going to face immediate and unpleasant consequences. I will respond as I would to any other grave and imminent threat to my life.

 

[EricOKC]

none of my rights are dependent upon your comfort level. When I misuse my rights and infringe upon yours thats a different story.

Hence, the reason yelling fire in a crowded theater is illegal when there is no fire, but i am not gagged upon entering the theater because I MIGHT do something wrong.

Same thing with guns. If you dont want to carry one, then dont. Dont presume to dictate to others what they may or may not do. My carrying one in no way infringes upon your rights. If you're uncomfortable with it - too bad. I'm uncomfortable with those who speak in favor of fringe environmental beliefs, but, i will defend their right to do so. It is my right to speak in opposition or simply ignore them - not to silence them.

We would all do well to remember that firearms ownership and carry is a civil right like any other. Why is it that we would never tolerate it if a state or municipality made the practice of a religion illegal or made it illegal for blacks to be in public yet we think nothing of restricting the right of free men to be armed?

 

[sendec]

So when you stroll into a crowded movie theater with a slung AK and people get trampled stampeding for the doors, hey, no harm no foul, serves'em right, the sheeple (How elitist is that?)

No one is talking about depriving anyone of anything. No one has come out and said that all open carry should be illegal. I and several others have committed the cardinal sin of asking for the use of common sense by the 17 some-odd people for whom getting into the bar of a Red Lobster in Virginia is some sort of Crusade and have turned this into The Next Crisis. Its' asking alot, I know, but stop playing the victim. With everything going on, if open carry in Applebee's and rude cops are the biggest returns on your radar y'all need to adjust the gain. None one wants to see certain things in a restaraunt. - I'd bet guns are right up there with asscrack.

 

[EricOKC]

Private companies have the right to restrict access to their property by any standard they wish to apply.

If you're so afraid of your own shadow that the mere sight of a gun causes you to run screaming, perhaps you should reconsider going out in public.

I am not saying that some level of discretion must be used. What I am saying is the government has no authority to dictate that level.

When LEO's ridicule those who wish to exercise their rights, they should be aware that when they use their profession to lend legitimacy to their argument, that same profession calls their argument into question.

 

[Smurfslayer]

a repost

Fed - you had time to respond to someone else.

I ask again...
FEDDC said:
"Well, I'm an LEO in N. VA and I object whole heartily to open carry and here is why: It is tactically RETARDED."

[SS] So, why do patrol officers open carry?

I see way too many wanna be gunfighters that think just bc they have a glock strapped to their hip in a POS fobus holster, that they are somehow immune from crime.

[SS] Those are backwards; it should read 'fobus and pos glock strapped...'


The reality, as I have seen time and again is that they make themselves more of a target and an easier victim.

[SS] Ante up then! show us police reports of someone being targeted and made an easier victim.


First, unless a person has had mountains of retention training and is using a level 3 retention holster...and is walking around in condition yellow constantly, never sits outboard at any theater, restaurant, concert etc, then they are setting themselves up for a gun grab.

[SS] You mean, like most patrol officers ?

Second, open carry negates the element of surprise and in a gunfight, fractions of a second count. You are identifying yourself to the BG, but you don't know who he is yet...see the disadvantage?

[SS] Actually, yes, we do. But, you are ignoring some salient facts Fed. Most importantly; the non upper caste here in Virginia need to either open carry or go disarmed in a restaurant. You are asserting that it is in the best interest of all that these people abrogate their right to bear arms...
Are you even the least bit familiar with Bliss v. Commonwealth, and Nunn vs. State ?

I didn't think so. They are to early and significant cases concerning the right to keep and bear arms. Nunn ( I believe this was chronologically the 1st, but someone jump in if that's not true ) put forth the doctrine that a right may have the regulation of the manner of exercise and be constitutional, but it may not be restricted to the point of obscurity such that it's exercise is for all practical purposes, eliminated. - in other words, and particular to Nunn, concealing is a privilege which may be regulated. Bliss ruled otherwise, and before (KY) ... The principle that concealed arms may be regulated and that it is a legitimate exercise of the police power carries forward to this day (see Klein v. Leis). The exercise of the privilege of carrying a concealed firearm has absolutely nothing to do with the exercise of the right to keep and BEAR arms, in the open, as any gentleman would ( would have in the early days of the Colonies )...

It is the only refuge of the citizen which is protected here in Virginia who wants to eat at an ABC restaurant. As many in LE are fond of saying to the public "Don't blame us, blame the General Assembly!" That applies here. Get the VA G.A. to recognize that concealed carry of arms is also constitutionally protected (thus eliminating the hated restaurant ban on concealed carry) and perhaps you'll see less citizens giving you the willies.



And lastly, it just scares people and attracts unwanted (although in the case of most newbie's, they like the "Attention") attention. It gets old for kids to yell out "Daddy, he has a gun" and everybody to turn and look. When that happens, you just got made and gave up any semblance of a tactical advantage which is the whole reason for having the gun in the first place...unless you just want to look cool.

[SS] I will qualify this by attempting to leverage some perspective first. I have been open carrying routinely to be legal in restaurants, and once in a while, transiting to and from whatever restaurant in Virginia for years now. I do not prefer carrying a firearm openly for my own reasons. Some of those are common with assertions you have made, but because I am less comfortable with it, not because I am asserting these as fact. Not once, in any of these times has some kid done that. I have been "made" open carrying perhaps 4 times in several years, all by folks in a restaurant wanting to talk. I'm sure others have noticed, but not called out and "Made" me... If I were of the privileged class here in VA, I believe that I would conceal almost all the time, but, that option isn't there for us sometimes. For the record, if you check the VA Alerts archive, VCDL does not advocate one way or the other whether you should carry open, or concealed.


None of the LEOs are saying open carry is wrong or that it should be illegal. We are saying that it is stupid and often done by wannabees to show off their new "Piece".

[SS] So, we are Legal to do it, but Stupid and Retarded, and therefore, the commoners shouldn't do it, right?

Nobody here is (despite WW's commentary) disturbing the Peace, committing a common law breach of the peace, or even hurting anybody's feelings... Except maybe state Senator Janet Howell, but that's another thread. I can't speak for the others here, but I don't personally open carry to educate anybody, but I will open carry, in the circumstances that are legal, and hopefully without drawing a great deal of attention to myself.

I thought this was the High Road. The point could've been made without making everyone who open carries out to be idiots. How long before this turns into cop bashing? If you want a glimpse into why more and more folks have disdain and lack of respect for law officers, this attitude typifies it.


__________________

I want to read of these people who have made themselves repeatedly more of a target, and an easier victim. Not to mention your confirmation that the citizens open carrying are, in fact, (tactically) retarded and stupid.

Read up on those court cases yet?

 

[FedDC]

Smurf-

Sorry if you felt that I was ignoring you, but I thought I had more or less answered your questions in my other posts. Basically, to reinterate, I never said open carry should be illegal or that it is somehow morally wrong. What I said is that it is tactically retarded and does a lot to frighten the people that we ask to vote for our gun laws.

Yes, uniformed Officers carry openly. They also have assistance within 2 minutes at the most and often within seconds via radio. They have ASPs, OC, Tasers, Cuffs, BUGs, and Body Armor which helps to mitigate the risk of open carry. Additionally, even local LE deploys a good number of plain clothes units because they will be able to see things and blend in where higher profile units would stand out like a turd in a punch bowl.

As my colleague pointed out, about 25% of LEOs are killed with their own gun and a huge part of that was that the suspect SAW the gun and then went for it. No See - No Go.

 

[sendec]

And again----

Platt and Mattix murdered target shooters in the Florida 'glades to steal their guns.

Any number of gun shops have been held up.

Any number of overtly armed Israeli citizens have been murdered, in one of the most gun-rich countries on earth.

Multiple politicians, including US Presidents, have been the target of close range attack, with the common knowledge that they are surrounded by heavily armed, highly trained protection teams.

If any of you think that a gun is a deterrent to a determined or emotionally disturbed assailant have never been confronted by a determined or emotionally disturbed assailant. Your logic is as flawed as that of the average criminal. Its a gun, not a rabbit's foot.

 

[Wildalaska]

So when you stroll into a crowded movie theater with a slung AK and people get trampled stampeding for the doors, hey, no harm no foul, serves'em right, the sheeple (How elitist is that?)

WildandthereisthebottomlineAlaska

 

[Smurfslayer]

Fed,

I didn't accuse you or others of wanting to have open carry outlawed,
but, I will accuse you of attempting to shame everyone away from the practice... UNLESS of course they're "highly trained" law enforcement...

I don't think anyone here honestly believes that a gun is some sort of talisman that will defeat all harm. But, you're (generally) making some assumptions here that none of the persons practicing open carry have what you (generally) deem sufficient training to be qualified.

As you said previously, 25 % of officers are killed with their own guns, which is statistically irrelevant with another anecdote that officers are also actively seeking out confrontation when called upon as opposed to the citizen in general. Not that your average Joe won't get his/her gun taken, just that most of the situations leading up to the officers being killed were brought on through non defensive posture.

Yes, Open carry draws more attention, and the element of surprise is lost in some case - most in fact. Nevertheless, a gun is not the only tool in the box, and there may be some people put off by it...

to paraphrase This is Northern Virginia, Not DC, Not MD, but Virginia. It may be not quite of the same makeup as rural Virginia, but it's still Virginia.