Very Interesting Article On Dateline, Self Defence Implications?

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I was watching Dateline last night, in honor of the holiday they did a story W/ a military theme. What I found interesting, and some thing that I think those of us who carry a weapon for personal protection need to keep in the back of our mind, was a statement made during the interview by Ltc. Peter Kilner (Professor of Military Ethics USMA). Kilner said;"That the single greatest factor into whether a Vietnam war veteran experienced symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder was whether they had killed someone".

Kilner went on to point out that this was actually a sign of good moral health because it indicated the Service Member's conscience
were troubled by the unpleasant necessity of taking lives in combat.

Something else that Kilner pointed out was that when a police officer is involved in a shooting as soon as is feasible he has another officer W/ him validating the necessity for the shooting & telling the officer that he did the right thing & that he's not an evil person for taking a life in the course of his duties. The point is that the officer unlike the soldier (or the civilian) who takes a life is offered imediate physcological support.

Kilner then stated that Chaplins of all faiths were beginning to recognize the theraputic fatcor in such actions & are offering soldiers of all denominations rituals of absolution appropriate to their belief.

This brings up a point I never see mentioned here, we talk a lot about protecting our selve legally after a shooting, has any body given any prior consideration to spiritual / physcoligical help after a shooting ( I DO NOT WANT THIS TO TURN TO A DISCUSSION OF ACTUAL SHOOTINGS)

Do you think that Professor Kilner's theory is valid & what implications do you think it has in a SD shooting situation? Do you think that calling your clergy as well as your lawyer is a valid response?

Have at it
 
Do you think that Professor Kilner's theory is valid
Click to expand...

While my observations are all anecdotal, I agree.

I would add, that it seems my fellow college students were afflicted if lots of shooting was done around them, even if they themselves did not pull a trigger.

One of my supervisors was an LT during the war. All of the time he was in Vietnam he served as a "girl Friday" to an administrator far behind the lines where actual shooting took place. He told me stories of "going out on the town" and the silly stuff that military paper-pushers do. No PTSD.
 
The Pre-Shoot Thought Process

I have worked out the following mental exercise to deal with the possibility that I may be required to use lethal force to stop a threat:

  1. You Need to Get Your Mind Right. This is where you come to grips and make your peace with the fact that you are carrying the power of life and death. You need to walk through the various scenarios for what will happen after to be prepared for the entire event.
  2. You Have to Know Where the Bright Line to Act Is. At what point can you legally stop the threat.
  3. As John Bernard Books - John Wayne's character in his last movie The Shootist stated - You Must Be WILLING. There can be NO hesitation as soon as the opportunity/shot is cleared tactically after the Bright Line has been and remains crossed.
The background here is that there is no RSVP to a lethal threat.
 
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What does RSV mean?

Revised Standard Version Bible?

Respiratory syncytial virus?

Resupply Vehicle?
 
I think guilt is a huge factor in it. All bravado aside, it is a life-altering event.
I could go on about religion and forgiveness of actions and relieving guilt but that is for another time.
 


yokel said:
What does RSV mean?
Click to expand...

It's RSVP, abbreviation for the French "Répondez s'il vous plaît", or please respond or 'please let us know if you will attend' in the American English vernacular.

You get neither time nor option at attending a gun fight or other life threatening event.

​
 
One factor to consider, is that neither those fighting the Vietnam war, nor those making policy were entirely convinced that they are doing the right thing. When you take another life, and have doubts about why you did it, there are obviously going to be problems.

I would defer to the scene in "The Untouchables", when Kevin Costner has to put down the bad guy who wouldn't surrender. Sean Connery was asking what his problem was.

"I had to Kill that man."

"Yes. He's as dead as Julius Caesar. Would you rather it was you?"

"No, I would not."

"Then go home and sleep well."

Every action we take must be balanced by the consequences. If it's bad that I had to stop someone from harming me, it would be worse if my kids have to deal without me. Everyone who is armed for whatever reason should do some soul searching BEFORE they are armed to decide that they are going to do the best they can and live with the results.
 
The issue here has nothing to do W/ weather or not the shooting is justified, or weather or not you're willing and prepared.

The point I'm making here is that we spend hours practicing for the shoot. We engage in endless discussion about how best to protect ourselves legally, some even keep a Lawyer on retainer for just that reason. But we never seem to give anythought to how to deal W/ the mental & emotional trauma in the aftermath of a SD shooting.

The person in the first story last night carried the guilt of the first NVA he killed for 33 years. And that was an absolutely justified shooting.
 
I don't know if I would experience any post-tramatic stress.

If I did, I have no doubt that I'd get through it.

I am NOT making light of PTSD, and I am not making a statement about anyone who has suffered PTSD.

But I do know this. My grandfather was drafted into WWII. He landed on D-Day, and was wounded getting on the beach. He was wounded again a month later in France. He was a "Marksman" in his unit, and I have a few indications of what experiences he went through.

From my experiences with him, the shots that he had to take were not what he carried with him throughout his life. It was the friends and comrades that he lost that troubled him until he passed away a couple years ago.

To me, there is a lesson in that.

What you HAVE to do to protect those you love should never bother you. Those times that you could not save them is what should bother you.

I think that coping is largely a result of your pre-existing worldview.

So, I feel I'll get through if I was ever put in that situation.

Barring that, my sister is a Crisis Counselor.


-- John
 
You're dealing with people who knowingly and willfully violate the norms and moors of society, let alone the laws. They are looking to destroy your life and don't even flinch. Maybe they are out to kill you outright, maybe they are trying to rob your residence and respond aggressively to your commands. Either way they a victimizing you and violating your most fundamental rights.

Why worry about killing them. They need to be taken out of society and that is due to the choices they made for themselves and they and only they are solely responsible for. Why is it better that they be taken out of society by incarceration costing US $22,000 per year, rather than be taken out of society with a couple of well placed bullets?

I'm more concerned about the $600 - $2000 dollar cost of having a professional crew perform a bio-cleaning (I don't remember the exact term for the procedure) at my place.
 
I believe that mljdeckard is onto something. Most of the vets I have met that have PTSD were drafted into the Vietnam war. They did not want to be there. They were put into a bad situation where they had no choice but to defend them selfs.

We choose to prepare to defend ourselves. We make the decision up front that we are going to arm ourselves, that we are going to defend ourselves and that we are willing to use lethal force if we have to.

These are two very different mind sets. I think it will have a very definite effect on each of us if we ever have to shoot and take a life.
 
How does that effect the Iraq vets every single one of them is a volunteer and according to Ltc. Kilner the pattern holds true in them.
 
My wife's husband was a Marine in Nam. He went back for a second tour and was at the siege of Kason for the duration.

He had to live in a trench with the corpses of his buddies for days and I suspect he killed a LOT of NVA.

He never, ever talks about it with us, but was quoted extensively in a published oral history of the battle.

He's never been right in the head ever since and though he looks perfectly normal, he's on full disability and cannot handle stress of any sort.

He also can't join the family for any kind of holiday celebration (Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc...), but always spends those days at homeless shelters or soup kitchens, seeking to find and help other Viet Nam Vets. Theiy're his family. They're the only ones that understand him.
 
I guess that dehumanizing people by calling them "gooks" might be one way of dealing with the problem.

Not very High Road, though.
 
It hard for anybody to say for sure how they will react to something like this. Everybody is different.

I have no problems from being in a combat zone. I feel it has helped me. I don't let the things bother me because I know they can be allot worse.

I am not saying that taking someones life is a fun thing but I don't have a problem living with it but it doesn't make you a bad person either way you end up feeling.
 
Shooting someone in war versus and SD / HD / kick burglary type of shooting are very very different. In war you are shooting someone (as Hardy said I believe) that under different circumstances may have been your friend. Someone that in many instances is like you and is fighting for their country and their beliefs.

A home defense shooting is somthing quite different. In that case, the perp has made a LONG list of decisions in which he has set himself apart from society. He would take what you have to extend his own life of thuggery. His victims will grow as his life moves forward. Usually the perp themselves realize that there is an element of risk in every job, but disregard or rationalize it planning to brutalize their victims.

In one case I would be haunted by what I did... In the HD case I would be haunted by WHAT IF I DIDN'T / COULDN'T have responded the way I did... A thankful kind of haunting I think.
 
I've never shot anyone or even come close. I've never had any serious threats to my life or to anyone nearby. I'm thankful for that. On the other hand, I think about the act and the consequences quite often 'cause I carry 100% of the time. My thoughts have always been that it depends on IF it was my only avenue of staying alive or protecting someone else's life. It would have to be "correct" in my mind after the act.... not what anyone else told me. I would probably be the only person that knew the intimate details and what was in my mind as I pulled the trigger. No one else can change that and I would have to be able to live with my act.
This was thought about long & hard before I ever signed up for a CCW course. I'm good with my decision and I believe I could live with taking a life if the circumstance warrented it. My wish is that it'll never come to that.
 
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The person in the first story last night carried the guilt of the first NVA he killed for 33 years. And that was an absolutely justified shooting.
Click to expand...

YOU don't know that it was a justified shooting. It was war & he shot an enemy combatant so it was legal and probably what was expected of him. BUT - he is the only person who knows the exact circumstances a millisecond before he killed that enemy person. Until you know what those circumstances were, you can not say that it was justified in his mind. Was the soldier ready to surrender? Was he running away? Was he 14 years old? Did he have a gun? I don't know the answers and neither does anyone else other than the shooter..... & that's what he lives with.
 
I asked my Dad, a WWII vet, if it ever bothered him about killing people; He answered "No, I didn't kill anyone who didn't need to be dead."
 
Many years ago I came home to find a dirtbag in my home ripping me off. I was carrying at the time and drew down on him and held him until the police arrived.

Standing there with my gun pointed at him, I was as calm as can be, knowing I would not hesitate to pull the trigger if he made the wrong move.

After the cops arrived & took control, I put my gun away, sat down, & started shaking like a leaf. I couldn't stop. The cop told me it was normal & a mild case of PTSD. I can't imagine what I would have went through if I actually had to shoot this guy.

I am the last person in the world who would regret having to shoot some slimeball that deserved it, but I don't think any of us know how we will handle the aftermath until it happens.

Just my $0.02
 
My point here isn't so much weather or not a shooting is justified. I'm more interested in wether or not this concept of sprititual / physcological support is valid.

I would think that regardless of the status of the other guy I would have a moral delema W/ ending another humans life. It wouldn't be an insurrmountable delema, but I am sure that I would suffer some emotional trauma.
 
I think the day that I am every fully ok with the idea of taking a life is the day that I will sell every last one of my firearms. Taking a life is never easy, and it never should be.

Now this is not to say that I would not be able to use a firearm, or any other tool to defend myself in a situation where it is needed. But there is a difference between doing what has to be done, and it being easy.
 
I feel, based only on anecdotal remarks and my personal understanding of psychology, that the damage is caused by shock, not by the action.

Just like any other adrenaline-fueled event, it gains permanence, and if one does not have a mind that can take stock and react to the threat, the "grinding as it gets into gear" is what causes problems down the road.

My grandfather was a Royal Marines commando, and doesn't seem to mind the sniping he did in the Pacific, but his memories of being an Oerlikon loader the first time his taskforce encountered Kamikazes still freaks him out.
 
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