Veterans under 21

[cor_man257]

I am a Veteran of the Army National Guard, I deployed to Iraq and came back. Im back now, but Im only 20 years old. In the military Im an MP. One of the few MOS that actually carry handguns all the time in country. That and being brought up around guns and shooting handguns from an early age with my Dad, I know what Im doing with a pistol.

So after I've been home I started thinking about getting a concealed carry permit. I looked up New york state law and was more than happy to find the penal law allows me to get a concealed carry permit. Although I am under 21 I am a Honorably Discharged Veteran. The law is as follows:

No license shall be issued or renewed except for
an applicant (a) twenty-one years of age or older, provided, however,
that where such applicant has been honorably discharged from the United
States army, navy, marine corps, air force or coast guard, or the
national guard of the state of New York, no such age restriction shall
apply;

So just to make sure things were going to go over okay, I called my local state troopers and asked about it. After talking to someone else, the lady from the pistol permit office there told me that I:
A-Could Apply and receive a permit.
B-Could NOT purchase a handgun under New York state law. It must be gifted to me. (No sweat give the folks cash and they would buy&gift)
C-Could purchase ammunition. (I asked specifically about this)

AWESOME! So I call my county pistol permit office (Schoharie). The lady told me that because of the recent hurricane that no permits were being issued. Sounded like bull to me. She said it would be a few months. I told her I understood and would wait. I asked to have someone call me back when things were underway and talk to me about my situation. The next day I get a call from the pistol clerk. She informs me that I CAN NOT apply. I must be 21. I told her that New York state law said I could. She told me that the application only allowed for 21 year olds, however if I would like to have a lawyer double check for me and speak with the judge about it I could do that.

Because this is the same Judge that is eventually going to be signing something so that I have unrestricted carry I opted not to press the issue. I dont want to get slapped with a target and hunting liscense because I was annoying.

So apparently even the law we do have doesnt matter? Dont just tell me to leave NY. I have 5 more years that I must live here for the National Guard. Plus all my family lives here. All my fiance's family. So save it, because its just not happening. I shouldnt have to move to exercise my rights anyway. Especially when they are rights allowed even in my state!

 

[NavyLCDR]

(No sweat give the folks cash and they would buy&gift)

Is it really worth both your parents and you committing Federal felonies in order for you to get a handgun 1 year earlier? You give them cash and they make a gift to you? Yeah, right. Try STRAW PURCHASE instead of gift.

So apparently even the law we do have doesnt matter?

New York is a discretionary issue state. That means the judge gets to decide who gets a permit and who doesn't, and what kind of permit they get. Google Big Tim Sullivan if you want to know the roots of the New York pistol permit system. Summary: it was to disarm victims because Big Tim's mobsters were getting at too often.

 

[cor_man257]

The troopers office told me that it was illegal for me to purchase the firearm. Not to have it. It is LEGAL for my parents to gift the firearm to me. Its illegal for me to purchase it.

And the point isnt the one year wait. Its the fact the law says I can, and for no reason Im not being allowed to.

 

[NavyLCDR]

It is legal for your parents to gift you a firearm. Your statement of:

"(No sweat give the folks cash and they would buy&gift)"

is not a gift. It is a straw purchase and violates Federal law.

Do whatever you want to, though.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Straw Purchase = Federal Felony

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Printed page 165 of the above file:

An example of an illegal straw purchase
is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.
Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills
out Form 4473, he violates the law by
falsely stating that he is the actual buyer
of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
the law because he has unlawfully aided
and abetted or caused the making of
false statements on the form.

Where a person purchases a firearm
with the intent of making a gift of the
firearm to another person, the person
making the purchase is indeed the true
purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
in these instances. In the above example,
if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
lawfully have completed Form 4473.

The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases.
The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.

Parent child relationship makes no difference. Mr. Smith above is the son, Mr. Jones above is the father. Parents use THEIR OWN MONEY to truly buy a firearm to give to you as a gift - perfectly legal. You give your parents money to buy a firearm for you - Federal felony.

 

[cor_man257]

Regardless... even if I was gifted the firearm and didnt "straw purchase" your missing the point.

I am not even being allowed to APPLY. Regardless of the fact this is a may issue state were it is discretionary who gets the permit... They are not allowing me to even apply. Although that is clearly legal under New York state law. That is the issue Im presenting.

 

[calaverasslim]

patience is a virtue. I recommend that you wait until your 21, can leagally buy a handgun and then apply and jump thru the hoops.

Your young, you have your whole life ahead of you and give it a chance

 

[Birch Knoll]

I am not even being allowed to APPLY. Regardless of the fact this is a may issue state were it is discretionary who gets the permit... They are not allowing me to even apply. Although that is clearly legal under New York state law. That is the issue Im presenting.

You'll need to get past the clerk who doesn't seem to understand the exception. Consulting with an attorney is probably a good idea; it may be that a letter from the attorney to the judge may be all you need to get your application accepted.

Don't be too surprised if the judge still decides you need to be 21, though. He has total discretion, and can do pretty much as he pleases.

Good luck!

 

[cor_man257]

I know, and that is exactly what Im doing.

but am I the only who sees the fact Im being denied the right to apply?

 

[Birch Knoll]

I think we all understand that quite well. I agree it sucks. But I also know how bureaucracies work, so I find it unsurprising that they don't know their own rules and won't follow them when they learn of them.

 

[zxcvbob]

Welcome to the real world. The exception for honorably discharged vets is not so you can get a permit a year or two "early", it's to make you think you can get a permit -- so the judge can slap you down for his/her own amusement.

That's what gun control is all about; it's not about the guns, it's about control.

BTW, I'm a day late with this, but thank-you for your service.

 

[NavyLCDR]

but am I the only who sees the fact Im being denied the right to apply?

You are correct, you are being denied your rights. Obtain a lawyer, who will file with the court for a Writ of Mandamus which will be a court order to the state police to accept your application. Then the state police will be forced to accept your application, or be in violation of the court order. Probably by the time that all goes through, you will be 21 anyway, but at least you will challenged the unlawful denial of your rights.

Then, it's a pretty bad deal to turn around and use those rights to commit a Federal felony and entice others to do so as well by making a straw purchase. It's pretty hard to drum up support from us when you tell us that is what your plan is.

 

[FadingSwordsman]

Tell the clerk to read through the law slowly, and point out the wording which disproves her. It's very rude (to the clerk) but if you want to press the issue, that might be what it takes to get through the red tape.

Also, you should point out to her that you can apply for anything which you aren't necessarily eligible, but if you aren't eligible, you won't get approved. That part is not her concern though.

Failing that, see if there's a place you can go in person to fill out an application. I've often found that putting a face to a person makes things easier as far as dealing with red tape goes.

 

[Birch Knoll]

Evey time I hear this sort of thing, this New York State native is happy that he lives in Maine.

 

[Bonesinium]

AWESOME! So I call my county pistol permit office (Schoharie). The lady told me that because of the recent hurricane that no permits were being issued. Sounded like bull to me. She said it would be a few months. I told her I understood and would wait. I asked to have someone call me back when things were underway and talk to me about my situation. The next day I get a call from the pistol clerk. She informs me that I CAN NOT apply. I must be 21. I told her that New York state law said I could. She told me that the application only allowed for 21 year olds, however if I would like to have a lawyer double check for me and speak with the judge about it I could do that.

Sounds like the clerk simply doesn't want to be hassled. Either she is ignorant, or is lying to you so she has less to do. In situations like this, (too late now, I know), it is usually best to ask LESS questions. You know you can apply, so just apply without asking them. If you ask someone a question, they think you don't know the answer, and if their answer (true or not) makes it easier on them, that is what they give. There is no crime in lying to you. Heck, I would have just lied to her and said I was 21, and where do I drop the forms off at?

So apparently even the law we do have doesnt matter?

Unfortunately sometimes, this is correct. It is pretty messed up right?

(No sweat give the folks cash and they would buy&gift)

As noted, you are mistaken on what he meant. When it comes to firearms, a gift has to be a real gift, not a 'gift' you bought for yourself through someone else. If your parents buy you a pistol as a gift, that is okay. If you give them money for it, that is now illegal. The reason it is illegal is to prevent people who cannot legally own said firearm from getting people to buy it for them. So even with that not being the case, it is still, unfortunately, illegal.

patience is a virtue. I recommend that you wait until your 21, can leagally buy a handgun and then apply and jump thru the hoops.

Your young, you have your whole life ahead of you and give it a chance

It is, but the point is he shouldn't have to. To be honest, not allowing him to apply because he isn't 21 (though he doesn't have to be per state law), is illegal discrimination. You are condoning that?

 

[bearcreek]

If you give them money for it, that is now illegal. The reason it is illegal is to prevent people who cannot legally own said firearm from getting people to buy it for them. So even with that not being the case, it is still, unfortunately, illegal.

I know you're correct in the reasoning behind this law. I can't help but point out the irony and stupidity of it though. How much sense does it make to make something illegal that's perfectly harmless in itself in order to supposedly keep people from doing something that's already illegal? :banghead:

 

[USAF_Vet]

Remember the source of the information. Generally, cops and clerks know diddly about gun laws. In a may issue state like NY, it's a crap shoot for even those who are over 21 years old. Apply for your permit. Submitting an application is perfectly legal, even though it might be subsequently denied and round filed. Just remember, all in due time.

You've been beat up enough over the straw purchase plan you mentioned, so I won't say anything else in that regard.

Thanks for your service, brother.

 

[Bonesinium]

I know you're correct in the reasoning behind this law. I can't help but point out the irony and stupidity of it though. How much sense does it make to make something illegal that's perfectly harmless in itself in order to supposedly keep people from doing something that's already illegal? :banghead:

It doesn't.

 

[Gunnerboy]

but am I the only who sees the fact Im being denied the right to apply?

No i see exactly what you are talking about and i understand perfectly where im at you can have a pistol in your possesion if your under 21 only if you are hunting,fishing,hiking,or target shooting, i have carried one when doing all of the above not concealed but in a holster on the hip and have had deputys try to take my pistol away once i told them the law # and they looked it up they said have a nice day so its not something to get frustrated about you just need to think outside the box and find a loophole of sorts in order to get your permit or ability to carry.

 

[mljdeckard]

As if....not being 21 is the only thing about New York's gun laws that will make you want to strangle kittens.

 

[Bobson]

Yes, you're being denied a legal right, OP. Welcome back to America.

Either:

1) Move away from New York, to a place in America that hasn't been tainted by idiots (yet)
2) Run for office and change things, or
3) Sit back and find a way to not care that America's laws mean nothing

Thanks for your service, from one vet to another. The men who paved the way for us must be rolling in their graves.

 

[T Bran]

The sad truth is that yes you can fight it and more than likely win but how much will it cost you. At your age by the time you get on the docket you will already be 21 and the case will be moot so you spend your money for naught. It isnt rite or logical but they pretty much own you at this point so dont PO the judge who may later be deciding if you get a permit or not. It is kinda like POing your waiter or waitress before you get your food never a good idea.
Thank you very much for your service wish you were being treated better than this.

 

[cor_man257]

No, Im not pressing the issue. I don't want to put myself at the risk of not getting a permit because I've been a hassle. I am waiting until Im 21. I just found this whole thing rather... assinine.

Btw, If I wanted to press the issue it wouldnt cost me all that much. I'm entitled to a JAG attorney for any and all legal matters I may be involved in. But regardless of that it isnt worth my time.
----
As far as the straw purchase goes: I was unaware of the legality issue. Now having had it presented to me I see the problem. I find it funny that the state trooper I was talking to told me that it was fine. She actually suggested it.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Would it be legal for you to "borrow" Dad's new pistol to carry? You might even like it so much that you buy it from him next year besides, you did loan him the money that he used to buy it. No law against loaning Dad some cash is there?

 

[cor_man257]

Im pretty sure there isnt. Especially since I loaned him $5000 for him to finish building his house a few years back...

They're are ways around the straw man. But Im not looking to play in the grey.