macadore
Member
WWBGD? What would Bernard Goetz do?
Video of gang attack on NYC Subway
- Thread starter Jeff White
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FerFAL
Member
Walk away, if they even move towards you as you start leaving, pepper spray them. If they continue draw and shot out loud "Stop! Stop right now!" So everyone can hear, in case you do end up shooting them.
Those arent gang members, more like spolied teen punk prostitues, spoiled by both parents and society.
FerFAL
Those arent gang members, more like spolied teen punk prostitues, spoiled by both parents and society.
FerFAL
FerFAL
Member
I think a knife would have been perfect weapon for that situation, even a small sharp knife, one that cuts and bleeds nicely, but no deep wounds which are frequently fatal during the heat of the fight.
The only weapon they had was a plastic bottle ( empty one at that) just showing them a blade would have scared the living c out of them, and if that wasn’t enough, a few cuts here and there would send them running away like the coward brats they are.
Two punks tried to steal my watch in the train once. It was summer, pretty hot down here, and the shorts and Tshirts they had on left little space for a concealed weapon.
Maybe not the brightest thing to do, but I wasn’t going to give up my watch to a couple of scumbags just like that. Brought out my serrated Cold Steel “El Hombre” (discontinued, small version of the “Vaquero”, I believe) and shifted the blade in my hand a bit so they could take a really good look.
They looked at the shinny, mean looking blade, looked at me for a second or two, and walk away.
This guy just sat there, the rats smelled the fear, big mistake.
Even if you are unarmed, stand up, as soon as bottle boy gets near you grab him, you HURT him, and you continue with the girls is needed. A couple of girl blows wouldn’t do much damage while you take care of the kid.
FerFAL
silverlance
Member
He didn't need a knife, much less a gun for that situation. BTDT. My first reaction was outrage over a gang beating. But to be honest, this guy put himself into this situation.
I'm going to take a lot of flak about this, but I know what I'm talking about. A lot of the yelling, screaming, and in your face attitude that you see in that video is in black culture - it is part of discourse. I've done it myself when talking to black kids from that type of culture (there are many types of black culture - I'm referring to this particular one). Researchers call it "code switching". Way up until the very end he was NOT going to get an a$$ beating.
He made several critical errors, that put him into danger. Then he made several errors after it started going down.
1. he chose to engage in conversation with people he didn't know how to deal with.
2. his hand guestures were meant to be insulting, and submissive (note the open handed pleading, and the "yada yada yada" type hand waving when the girls are trying to argue with him)
3. his comments were submissive, but also engaging. instead of saying "why are you arguing" he could have joked it off, or said nothing at all.
4. he stood up. if you are going to stand up during an argument, expect someone to try to knock you back down. SEVERAL girls tried to help him. they held other girls back, and one even tried to get between him and the crazy girl. then the guy goes and actually tries to put his hands on one of the girls. BIG NO NO. once you touch someone angry, expect to get touched back.
my only advice in this is that if you are the type to use hand motions while speaking, keep your hands in front of you, palms out.
that said, sometimes folks are just plain out crazy. they are so damn confrontational and pent up that absolutely nothing you say will make them happy. in that case, leave them for the people paid to deal with them, or make your stand if you have to. stand up, fight back, and run away at the first opportunity. don't curl up in a ball and invite every other idiot to come take a free jab at you like the pig in lord of the flies.
once he started getting hit, he should h
I'm going to take a lot of flak about this, but I know what I'm talking about. A lot of the yelling, screaming, and in your face attitude that you see in that video is in black culture - it is part of discourse. I've done it myself when talking to black kids from that type of culture (there are many types of black culture - I'm referring to this particular one). Researchers call it "code switching". Way up until the very end he was NOT going to get an a$$ beating.
He made several critical errors, that put him into danger. Then he made several errors after it started going down.
1. he chose to engage in conversation with people he didn't know how to deal with.
2. his hand guestures were meant to be insulting, and submissive (note the open handed pleading, and the "yada yada yada" type hand waving when the girls are trying to argue with him)
3. his comments were submissive, but also engaging. instead of saying "why are you arguing" he could have joked it off, or said nothing at all.
4. he stood up. if you are going to stand up during an argument, expect someone to try to knock you back down. SEVERAL girls tried to help him. they held other girls back, and one even tried to get between him and the crazy girl. then the guy goes and actually tries to put his hands on one of the girls. BIG NO NO. once you touch someone angry, expect to get touched back.
my only advice in this is that if you are the type to use hand motions while speaking, keep your hands in front of you, palms out.
that said, sometimes folks are just plain out crazy. they are so damn confrontational and pent up that absolutely nothing you say will make them happy. in that case, leave them for the people paid to deal with them, or make your stand if you have to. stand up, fight back, and run away at the first opportunity. don't curl up in a ball and invite every other idiot to come take a free jab at you like the pig in lord of the flies.
once he started getting hit, he should h
karz10
Member
Well, seems like the video cut off just as things were really getting started, so hard to tell how it ended IMO
He wasn't taking them seriously, or was scared, hard to tell for sure, it was hard to make out any actual words on my machine, too tin canny
I think in their taunting/arguing w/ him they felt he was weak. Don't know if he's from around there, but I've spent some time in NY, and that is not the typical demeanor I've encountered of a young subway riding male in that city. I would have expected a much more aggressive response from someone native to the area.
I think that like a pack of dogs, they smelled fear in this man, and that had they not smelled fear, it may have turned out much differently, regardless of how their conversation/argument started.
I am not Don Imus and he has not approved this message, I am merely making an analogy about behavior, not actually calling these young females dogs, or female dogs, i.e. bitches, or anything of the sort.
Regards,
Karz
He wasn't taking them seriously, or was scared, hard to tell for sure, it was hard to make out any actual words on my machine, too tin canny
I think in their taunting/arguing w/ him they felt he was weak. Don't know if he's from around there, but I've spent some time in NY, and that is not the typical demeanor I've encountered of a young subway riding male in that city. I would have expected a much more aggressive response from someone native to the area.
I think that like a pack of dogs, they smelled fear in this man, and that had they not smelled fear, it may have turned out much differently, regardless of how their conversation/argument started.
I am not Don Imus and he has not approved this message, I am merely making an analogy about behavior, not actually calling these young females dogs, or female dogs, i.e. bitches, or anything of the sort.
Regards,
Karz
Blackfork
Member
Baltimore attack
Woman beaten on bus
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Filed under: BALTIMORE , Luke Broadwater , Sarah Kreager
(Provided)
Sarah Kreager suffered two broken bones in her left eye socket after nine teenagers allegedly attacked her on a city bus.
Dec 6, 2007 3:00 AM (9 hrs ago) by Luke Broadwater, The Examiner
BALTIMORE (Map, News) - As Sarah Kreager, 26, tried to sit down on a Baltimore City bus Tuesday, police say, a middle-schooler told her she couldn’t. When she attempted to take another seat, a middle-schooler wouldn’t let her. Finally, according to police, Kreager just sat down.
She was “immediately attacked” by nine students — three females and six males — from Robert Poole Middle School. They punched and kicked her at 2:59 p.m. at the intersection of 33rd Street and Chestnut Avenue, according to Maryland Transit Administration police.
Kreager was dragged off the bus and her boyfriend, Troy Ennis, attempted to get her back on, police said.
She sustained “serious injuries” and had to be transported to the University of Maryland Shock Trauma Center, according to a police report.
Examiner.com Related Articles:
Woman assaulted by nine teens on transit bus
Kreager suffered two broken bones in her left eye socket, police said.
“She had eye muscles that were damaged,” a police report states. “She had deep lacerations on the top of her head and another above her neck.”
Two seats and the bus’ rear glass were destroyed during the attack, police said.
The bus driver on the No. 27 line quickly called police, who responded and arrested the nine juveniles, said Jawauna Greene, an MTA police spokeswoman.
All nine suspects, ages 14 and 15, were arrested and charged with aggravated assault.
Their bus tickets — provided by the school — have been revoked, Greene said.
“Riding the bus is a privilege,” she said. “Public safety is our primary concern.”
Greene said the investigation into the incident was ongoing and she didn’t know whether the attack had anything to do with the victim’s race.
The suspects in the incident are black. The victim is white, according to the police report.
Baltimore resident David Briggs, who lives near the crime scene, said the incident underscores Baltimore’s pervasive crime.
“Now, I can't even ride the bus,” he said.
Examiner Staff Writer Stephen Janis contributed to the article.
[email protected]
Woman beaten on bus
Printer Friendly | Email | Add to My News | Post comments Font Size: a a A A | Rank: # 1 of 10,952
Filed under: BALTIMORE , Luke Broadwater , Sarah Kreager
(Provided)
Sarah Kreager suffered two broken bones in her left eye socket after nine teenagers allegedly attacked her on a city bus.
Dec 6, 2007 3:00 AM (9 hrs ago) by Luke Broadwater, The Examiner
BALTIMORE (Map, News) - As Sarah Kreager, 26, tried to sit down on a Baltimore City bus Tuesday, police say, a middle-schooler told her she couldn’t. When she attempted to take another seat, a middle-schooler wouldn’t let her. Finally, according to police, Kreager just sat down.
She was “immediately attacked” by nine students — three females and six males — from Robert Poole Middle School. They punched and kicked her at 2:59 p.m. at the intersection of 33rd Street and Chestnut Avenue, according to Maryland Transit Administration police.
Kreager was dragged off the bus and her boyfriend, Troy Ennis, attempted to get her back on, police said.
She sustained “serious injuries” and had to be transported to the University of Maryland Shock Trauma Center, according to a police report.
Examiner.com Related Articles:
Woman assaulted by nine teens on transit bus
Kreager suffered two broken bones in her left eye socket, police said.
“She had eye muscles that were damaged,” a police report states. “She had deep lacerations on the top of her head and another above her neck.”
Two seats and the bus’ rear glass were destroyed during the attack, police said.
The bus driver on the No. 27 line quickly called police, who responded and arrested the nine juveniles, said Jawauna Greene, an MTA police spokeswoman.
All nine suspects, ages 14 and 15, were arrested and charged with aggravated assault.
Their bus tickets — provided by the school — have been revoked, Greene said.
“Riding the bus is a privilege,” she said. “Public safety is our primary concern.”
Greene said the investigation into the incident was ongoing and she didn’t know whether the attack had anything to do with the victim’s race.
The suspects in the incident are black. The victim is white, according to the police report.
Baltimore resident David Briggs, who lives near the crime scene, said the incident underscores Baltimore’s pervasive crime.
“Now, I can't even ride the bus,” he said.
Examiner Staff Writer Stephen Janis contributed to the article.
[email protected]
That's what I'm thinking. If these people really do maintain a pack mentality, then take out the Alpha and become the big dog yourself. Even if it's not 100% effective, there's a fair chance that you just took out the biggest threat. Any one else care to weigh in on this?
Pull the brakes on the train and help will not be arriving for a bit. Walking away might have helped but if might not have. All he could do is get into a fetal position and protect all the vital organs.
Wolfpack attacks are serious and the confined space of a subway car or even on a platform don't help much. Google Brian Watkins and NYC Subway and see one possible result.
A gun would not have helped in this situation. Outnumbered, you would try to prevent your gun from taken from you. Lets say you could have cleared leather, do you think you could have a clear shot?
Been there done that...
Wolfpack attacks are serious and the confined space of a subway car or even on a platform don't help much. Google Brian Watkins and NYC Subway and see one possible result.
A gun would not have helped in this situation. Outnumbered, you would try to prevent your gun from taken from you. Lets say you could have cleared leather, do you think you could have a clear shot?
Been there done that...
Constantine-p89
Member
I agree with FourTeeFive.
We have all kinds of threads here about gunfights, intruders in the home and other actions that while fun to talk about, aren't really representative of the action a normal person is likely to be confronted with. I think that this scenario and the classic aggressive drunk are what most members are likely to encounter as they go about their business.
I think that the best defense would have been a hard look that says "don't mess with me" when the girls first started. They most likely would have found a different, more compliant victim. Of course if that didn't work and they took it as a challenge, then you have to be prepared to back it up.
I have to disagree with some of you about the knife. I've interviewed people who have been stabbed in fights who told me they weren't aware they were cut until the fight was over. Some were hurt pretty seriously. I also question how effective you could be with a knife with five assailants on top of you pinning your arms and hand. If I had a choice between a knife and OC in that situation, I would choose OC. And I'd have used it before the attack ever escalated into a swarm.
At the first taunting, it would have been my patented, "don't mess with me look" (I'm convinced that a lot of people who were about to fight as I was preparing to arrest them, backed down after my demeanor changed from officer friendly trying to do his job with as little conflict as possible, to "if you try me, we are going to the ER before we go to jail". Now at 6'2", 250 it was a lot easier for me to get away with that then it would be for some other people. Still, if you look like you are capable of hurting them, and express that with your body language, many attackers will back down.
If the taunting continued, I'd have stood up, OC in hand and told them to back off, at the same time heading for another car. If after loudly telling them in no uncertain terms to back off, they persisted, I'd have no problem with hosing them down.....Then I would move to another car and attempt to locate the transit cop.
Jeff
I think that the best defense would have been a hard look that says "don't mess with me" when the girls first started. They most likely would have found a different, more compliant victim. Of course if that didn't work and they took it as a challenge, then you have to be prepared to back it up.
I have to disagree with some of you about the knife. I've interviewed people who have been stabbed in fights who told me they weren't aware they were cut until the fight was over. Some were hurt pretty seriously. I also question how effective you could be with a knife with five assailants on top of you pinning your arms and hand. If I had a choice between a knife and OC in that situation, I would choose OC. And I'd have used it before the attack ever escalated into a swarm.
At the first taunting, it would have been my patented, "don't mess with me look" (I'm convinced that a lot of people who were about to fight as I was preparing to arrest them, backed down after my demeanor changed from officer friendly trying to do his job with as little conflict as possible, to "if you try me, we are going to the ER before we go to jail". Now at 6'2", 250 it was a lot easier for me to get away with that then it would be for some other people. Still, if you look like you are capable of hurting them, and express that with your body language, many attackers will back down.
If the taunting continued, I'd have stood up, OC in hand and told them to back off, at the same time heading for another car. If after loudly telling them in no uncertain terms to back off, they persisted, I'd have no problem with hosing them down.....Then I would move to another car and attempt to locate the transit cop.
Jeff
romma
Member
Hmmm, I wonder how much protesting we would have if race was reversed...
My how the media downplays this stuff!
phil_in_cs
Member
I think if he had a knife, we'd have found out quickly the girls were armed too.
This is Strategies and Tactics, how the media protrays it is a political topic and we don't discuss politics here.
Jeff
jabotinsky
Member
That video made me feel sick to my stomach...I was in a similar situation on the A Train in 1980...three males standing over me holding the handstraps and screaming while I go code red and figure out how to handle. The reason: I brushed one guy's sneaker slightly as I stepped over to sit down. I was unarmed, a green belt in full contact karate at the time. I apologized, then sat dead still with my eyes to the ground while they told me how they were going to mess me up. In my head, I mapped their locations, waited for a stop, the leader was to my left, he needed to get hit first and hard, then push through the attacker on the right, get to the door. They yelled and yelled and my peripheral vision was on 110% waiting for the first downward blow that never came. They got off the train, and I decided then & there to apply for NYU (in the Village) rather than Columbia (Uptown).
The videotape with the girls seems wrong in many ways...the situation is all wrong. My guess is he said something he shouldn't have early on, and continued mouthing off when he should have clammed up and moved through one of the two exits to the next car or exited at a station stop. You see the second female flank to the right and know the attack is coming, he had another station stop to get out. My guess is he's drunk or stupid or both and escalated the situation. Anybody who suggests punching out or acting like a man with these girls preemptively is nuts or hasn't lived in a city. There was lots of girls, any one of whom could've been carrying a gun, prob at least one with a blade, and you're dead, or maybe dead later if they find out your name. On the streets, words are considered weapons, you just don't mouth off to a bunch of wired teens on the subway, or try to joke your way out, use expletives. I've been in many situations where apologizing, showing respect and backing off saved my can. That guy's lucky to be alive. But I'm not convinced that any of those girls needed to be shot, had it been possible...and from what I saw, he would not have been legally justified. It's not a racial thing, I've seen wolf-packs of white kids harassing patrons in front of a Starbucks in suburbia. This video to me is all about situational awareness, not potential gun use.
The videotape with the girls seems wrong in many ways...the situation is all wrong. My guess is he said something he shouldn't have early on, and continued mouthing off when he should have clammed up and moved through one of the two exits to the next car or exited at a station stop. You see the second female flank to the right and know the attack is coming, he had another station stop to get out. My guess is he's drunk or stupid or both and escalated the situation. Anybody who suggests punching out or acting like a man with these girls preemptively is nuts or hasn't lived in a city. There was lots of girls, any one of whom could've been carrying a gun, prob at least one with a blade, and you're dead, or maybe dead later if they find out your name. On the streets, words are considered weapons, you just don't mouth off to a bunch of wired teens on the subway, or try to joke your way out, use expletives. I've been in many situations where apologizing, showing respect and backing off saved my can. That guy's lucky to be alive. But I'm not convinced that any of those girls needed to be shot, had it been possible...and from what I saw, he would not have been legally justified. It's not a racial thing, I've seen wolf-packs of white kids harassing patrons in front of a Starbucks in suburbia. This video to me is all about situational awareness, not potential gun use.
Some of the name-calling about this poor victim by writers to this site is a bit disturbing. The guy was trying to make peace and be non-threatening. It proobably was a cross-cultural issue in that the girl's saw this as "weakness".
Give some credit to the fact that most of us men have been brought up not to hit girls (sisters don't count!
), and even when attacked by a woman, most men will try to grapple and subdue the woman rather than hitting her (wife-abusers exempted from the above statement). He probably was very reluctant to start throwing punches because he was facing girls. It is hard to overcome that aversion; it would not be instinctive, it would have to be a conscious decision.
With that said, I think about the time that girl tried to shove me down back into my seat, she would have found herself flying backwards as I shoved her across the car. That coke bottle set against my forehead would have been snatched and crushed in my hand.
It does appear that several passengers, to their credit, began pulling the girls off after they jumped the guy.
Give some credit to the fact that most of us men have been brought up not to hit girls (sisters don't count!
), and even when attacked by a woman, most men will try to grapple and subdue the woman rather than hitting her (wife-abusers exempted from the above statement). He probably was very reluctant to start throwing punches because he was facing girls. It is hard to overcome that aversion; it would not be instinctive, it would have to be a conscious decision.With that said, I think about the time that girl tried to shove me down back into my seat, she would have found herself flying backwards as I shoved her across the car. That coke bottle set against my forehead would have been snatched and crushed in my hand.
It does appear that several passengers, to their credit, began pulling the girls off after they jumped the guy.
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Spartacus451
Member
How exactly did he get involved interacting with them in the first place? 4 minutes? What prevented him from leaving and taking the next train? When people I don't know start giving me crap I assume they are mentally and emotionally deficient and walk away. I'm selfish like that.
collateral
Member
I've been jumped a few times, and honestly it varies from group to group, sometimes if you lay one of them out, the rest will back off. Its hard to tell though.
I generally dont mind fighting with my back to the wall. It gives me somethin to push off of haha.
at the very least, he could have introduced his house/apartment keys to her face.
I generally dont mind fighting with my back to the wall. It gives me somethin to push off of haha.
at the very least, he could have introduced his house/apartment keys to her face.
Constantine-p89
Member
collateral said it.
Sometimes,
I carry my massive LeMat when I have to take the subway during the bleak hours. I guess I am lucky I don't have to take the A or the 2,4,5.
When the girls inched closer, I would have reached into my bag, which is always on my lap, and thumbed back the hammer to the grapeshot barrel. When they attacked, I would have let them have a searing blast of grapeshot at point blank range.............But I don't think thats a wise action to explain to the judges later.
But as a peaceful and calm person as I am, I would have mediated and pleaded with the girls to the last minute before letting them have it. I can't stand sh*t like this. Attacking someone for no reason. Gang initiation or no, well if they are initiating a new member, that new member could smile at death, and anybody else who wants to join in the fun can say hi to the grim reaper too.
I am a hard working man who supports his family and cares dearly about all his friends. I won't ever take scumbaggedness like this.
I would have changed cars before anything else could happen. I like to avoid situations, actually there are a lot of times on the subways when I changed cars to avoid a potentially dangerous situation. Always expect the worst, and when you know that things are about take a turn to the sh*tty brothel toilet, time to leave.
Unlike those nasty pop songs these filthy teens listen to nowadays, which last no longer than a month or two, the LeMat has lasted for over 150 years, and more than several scum were smitten by it during the War of Northern Aggression. This video is an example of materialism and consumerism gone completely wild. What has happened to the America of buckskinners, tanned deer hides, the smell of gunpowder in the morning, and untained meadows and clear crisp pastures as written in Frazier's novels.
I carry my massive LeMat when I have to take the subway during the bleak hours. I guess I am lucky I don't have to take the A or the 2,4,5.
When the girls inched closer, I would have reached into my bag, which is always on my lap, and thumbed back the hammer to the grapeshot barrel. When they attacked, I would have let them have a searing blast of grapeshot at point blank range.............But I don't think thats a wise action to explain to the judges later.
But as a peaceful and calm person as I am, I would have mediated and pleaded with the girls to the last minute before letting them have it. I can't stand sh*t like this. Attacking someone for no reason. Gang initiation or no, well if they are initiating a new member, that new member could smile at death, and anybody else who wants to join in the fun can say hi to the grim reaper too.
I am a hard working man who supports his family and cares dearly about all his friends. I won't ever take scumbaggedness like this.
I would have changed cars before anything else could happen. I like to avoid situations, actually there are a lot of times on the subways when I changed cars to avoid a potentially dangerous situation. Always expect the worst, and when you know that things are about take a turn to the sh*tty brothel toilet, time to leave.
Unlike those nasty pop songs these filthy teens listen to nowadays, which last no longer than a month or two, the LeMat has lasted for over 150 years, and more than several scum were smitten by it during the War of Northern Aggression. This video is an example of materialism and consumerism gone completely wild. What has happened to the America of buckskinners, tanned deer hides, the smell of gunpowder in the morning, and untained meadows and clear crisp pastures as written in Frazier's novels.
308win
Member
This could have been over if he had moved. If they followed to continue the confrontation he could have ended it puching one of them out. I don't want to blame on the victim but he did everything wrong he could. In fact, I am not too sure it wasn't all a put on.
highorder
Member
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...07_dad_sorry_for_a_train_teens_actions-1.html
it seems that Dad is doing the right thing, and feels terrible about the actions of his "wild animal" daughter.
it seems that Dad is doing the right thing, and feels terrible about the actions of his "wild animal" daughter.
I do not know what happened prior to the beginning of the video, nor can I understand the conversations. Still, I think the winning approach is MYOB, situational awareness, and avoidance. As far as all the talk of knives and guns, talk about a situation going to sh**; lose-lose. I saw no attempt by doofus to simply leave. Worse, he let the jackals surround him. Stupid. In light of that, I think he got what he deserved.
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