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Virginia's next move

Discussion in 'Activism Discussion and Planning' started by jr45, Nov 7, 2019.

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  1. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    Thank you for sharing your informed opinion on this. I did my six years in the guard and left, but I agree with much of your assessment. The dream of American soldiers disobeying lawful orders is exactly that, a dream. To be honest, I don't understand where that dream comes from, or why anyone would think such a thing might happen. Yet, I see it on all the gun channels as well as here. It's pure fantasy.

    Something people should think about: the vast majority of the armed forces are very young, impressionable ...quite frankly they're still kids. I know I was. They do not have the decades of life experience that many of us have now. If this happens, they will be told that they are fighting to defend the country from domestic terrorists. And they will believe it. I have thirty years of post military service life experiences. Thirty years of learning from experience and observation that government is not trustworthy. If I were in the guard today, I might be persuaded to throw down my M16 and take the jail sentence. I have also already lived the best years of my life, but a 19 year-old young man, with his whole life ahead of him, might think twice-if he considers it at all.
     
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  2. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    What we do not want to do is give ammunition to the Antis by behaving irresponsibly.

    Here's a bit of wisdom we need to put to our own use.

    "Fight for the things that you care about, but do it in a way that will lead others to join you."​

    We don't need our voices added to the choir, we need those folks who aren't committed Antis added to ours.
     
  3. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    As said by me and others, the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump, calls up the Guard for Federal duty. He orders them to stand down. For those with little memory, that was done by Eisenhower to stop governors from using the Guard to oppose desegregation. Of course, that depends on Trump - oh well.

    As far as lawful orders, I know from personal conversations that some Ohio unit members told their officers that if told to fire on college students (after Kent State) it might go badly for the officers. These units were made of college students who joined the Guard to avoid active duty in Viet Nam. In Russia and China, when faced with using military force against civilians, units from outside the local area were called up as the officers didn't trust local units to act against civilians of their localities.
     
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  4. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Now THAT is an interesting strategic bit of information. We know Warner and Kane won't ask POTUS to call the VA Guard to Federal duty and POTUS probably wouldn't act without some prod, but it is very interesting that the Governor of VA could be stymied by such a move.
     
  5. Craig_VA
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    Craig_VA Contributing Member

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    Actually, only one governor I am aware of. My father was called to state active duty by Governor Faubus in 1957 at Central High School, and was the on scene commander the very first day of duty. When President Eisenhower put the Guard into Federal status (and also sent the 101st Airborne to Little Rock), the Guard's duties were reversed from 'keep them out' to 'protect them as they enter." The Guard soldiers followed orders in both directions, as you would expect. Interesting tidbit: When all of the National Guard soldiers were released from duty and allowed to go home, the President kept the Arkansas Adjutant General on Federal status for one year, effectively breaking the chain of command between the Governor and the Guard, so he could not call them back in State status, again.
     
  6. BSA1

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    This is why what was I taught about American Government and Democracy is so much different than yours.

    The bedrock of America is that the Government should fear the people. Clearly the Governor and Liberal Politicians do not fear or worry about being recalled. Why should they? Gun owners stayed home on Election Day and the will of the majority of people that did vote support gun control.

    Now gun owners are in fear of losing their guns. Local Government Officials are passing resolutions that are feel good but largely meaningless legally.

    If I was the Governor I would sit back, remain silent and let the protestors wear themselves out. The new Government legislators do not take office until next year. There is plenty of time next year to pass gun control laws.

    The opinion on THR is we don’t want to make the anti’s mad at us so we will leave our guns at home so they don’t get scared. What should be happening is for legally armed citizens to protest openly carrying their firearms. Hundreds of legally armed citizens demonstrating their will to resist anti-gun laws will get attention of the Governor and Legislators real fast.
     
  7. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    Who are we trying to persuade by this? The antigun legislators and the governor aren't going to be intimidated by a mob bearing guns. As a matter of fact, they're already using the happenings in Virginia in their fundraising, saying that they're being targeted by the "far right." Anyway, January 20 is a holiday, so the legislature may not even be in session that day.

    The real danger is that somebody goes off half-cocked, and starts shooting. Or, the shooting is done by a "false flag" operation of fanatic antgunners. Either way, if people get killed, it would mean the end of our (up to now successful) lobbying efforts, and what comes of the legislature would be even more draconian than what's currently proposed.

    Coming to this event armed is the stupidest thing we could do.
     
  8. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    I don't know where you learned American Government, or who taught you,but you're right, it was radically different from that which was taught to the rest of the country.

    That is not a protest; that is an armed mob. The governor, any governor, will call out the National Guard, who will brig true "assault weapons" and there will be shooting, and there will be killing, and there will be dying...on both sides.

    You have a 1st Amendment right to peaceful assembly. The moment you pick up a firearm, you cease to be peaceful. If you are carrying a firearm, you have a plan to kill something or someone, be it a deer if you're hunting, an attacker if it's your EDC, or someone in authority over you or opposition to you, if you're at a protest or other political gathering.

    Leave the guns home unless and until you're ready to violently overthrow the government.
     
  9. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    This thread is disturbing to read.

    Thankfully I know that there is a real resistance to the govenor and his legislation.

    You folks owe it to yourselves to watch the news in VA come 1/20/20.

    With all that's happening its hilarious to hear that some of you folks still think people in VA are just going to roll over.


    Keep fervent watch, what's happening here very well might be a precursor.



    But never mind me, keep on debating internet irrelevance.
     
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  10. DoubleMag

    DoubleMag Member

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    Sorry, I missed that highly publicized news release whereas that has ever happened before:scrutiny:? Twice, three times...4?

    5?

    Continue as the politicians do I guess as you've posted many times in this thread alone...the little 'we the people' people cannot be trusted with their rights
     
  11. DoubleMag

    DoubleMag Member

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    Malarky whimisical theory, I HAVE been to many rallies (over 4) and NEVER drank any water or was prodded to any such action of violence. Neither was the other 100s of CITIZENS.
    Neither did any of the guest politicians speaking summate with '' I have to go now, the governor has ordered the troops in.''

    I M carrying right now, yesterday, tomorrow, and professionally for many decades and do you really think the LEO at the rallies were influenced by some similar fervor? I generally see your posts as even handed, well thought out. May not always agree as is my perogative; this is an anomaly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
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  12. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    RightfulPeacefulAssemblyWhileOvertlyArmedToTheTeeth Theory aside, such an assembly will shock and alarm the sheep.
    The result will not be productive.
     
  13. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Considering the number of protests around 2A overreach that have been carried out while conspicuously carrying firearms and the absence of any violence from either side, it is difficult to understand how that can be taken seriously or how it helps the cause of not throwing ourselves into the arms of the Anti spin.

    I agree that we risk harming our cause by showing up conspicuously armed, but that's a perception issue and opening ourselves up to spin as "dangerous to the public" from the Antis, not a serious risk of violence.
     
  14. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    Take great care...
    It is the increasingly-effective manipulation of perception that drives both politics & elections of late, and their consequences.

    In parallel vein, we have an electorate increasingly -- and deliberately -- disconnected from their heritage, their history, and even the most basic knowledge of their form of government. Such people are easily swayed by perception ...as they have no roots to anchor themselves to anything but the 10-second soundbite.

    Cattle adrift in a dark night ... stampeded at any loud noises.

    Take great care in how you approach the problem if you want them to follow you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
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  15. Thibaut

    Thibaut Member

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    I think any spin will originate from the media cameras establishing their shots and angles. That is how the country will view the gathering. I won't be there but I hope for a peaceful and productive show of support. I suspect that the "antis" and those who make it their business to stir up rage, are licking their chops.
     
  16. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    No, not a "real" danger, but a ND would be horrible press for us.

    That's pretty farfetched and less likely than an ND. Perhaps some madman would like the opportunity to fire upon a crowd, but we haven't seen that happen to a crowd with the means of firing back. It would probably garner more sympathy for us if we were targeted.

    If we're leaning so off balance to the extremes of shootings or armed response to a peaceful 2A assembly then we're obscuring the more probable issues with hysteria.

    I think we need the counties and districts making local ordinances blocking enforcement of state restrictions on firearms owners. This goes on record informing the VA Governor and legislators that they may have a majority, but they don't have a mandate. I think those ordinances need to be couched in terms to win court challenges to the state if the state legislature tries to restrict the right of the people to keep and bear. And we need to file and request injunctions as soon as the votes are made.

    I think we need a sea of people showing up in the local council halls and an ocean of 2A supporters in the capitol on the 20th to show the tide of opinion on the proposed restrictions. A huge showing is needed that can make an impression even if it is a holiday with no legislators present.

    I personally think that it plays into the hands of the Anti media spin machine to show up dressed in military gear, camouflage, or conspicuously carrying firearms. Looking like your neighbors that aren't avid 2A supporters gains more identification with us from them than trying too hard to set ourselves apart. If anyone chooses to show up with a firearm it should be clearly flagged as safe and there should be an American flag sticking out of the barrel to clearly show our intent is a peaceful protest against the Governor and the Anti legislators.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Absolutely!
     
  18. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree. The idea is to carry the day and not just generate a feel good Lost Cause moment.
     
  19. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    Hso is correct.
    Please stop the counter productive rhetoric and actions and support the agenda and recommendations of the VCDL.
    If you are not a member, join, if you are not contribute then join.
    Stereotype behavior doesn't help us, but going to the January 20 rally in Richmond and acting like concerned informed voters will.
    So put away the camo, leave the AR at home and come and talk to your reps and convince them it is the best interest of the citizens of Virginia, and their political careers to oppose Governor Nothams agenda.
    As for the National gaurd being called up, it ain't going to happen!
    Even if the Governor activates them, the feds will nationalize them and stand them down.
    So posture less, act and talk more, and show Ralphie he is wrong!
     
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  20. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    The worst thing that can happen is low turn out. I recall in my youth, thousands for Civil Rights and opposition to the Viet Nam war. Thousand marched recently after the 2016 election for gender equality. People took buses for hundreds of miles to get to such.

    If you can't put out large numbers for the 2nd Amendment, that says it all.
     
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  21. BSA1

    BSA1 member

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    They did on Election Day. Where were all of pro-2A voters then?

    The majority of the voters support stricter gun laws. Now some gun owners want to overturn the mandate that those voters have gave to the Governor and Legislators.

    Maybe enough anger can be raised to have recall election. That happened in Colorado but has any of the restrictive gun laws there been repealed?

    Oh sure have your nice unarmed peaceful protest on January 20th. But where will the protestors be on February 20th, March 20th and on the 20th of each month for the rest of 2020?
     
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  22. BSA1

    BSA1 member

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    Agreed 100%.

    Protesters were tear gassed, beaten with clubs by the Police and National Guard soldiers, jailed and fined. Some even paid for it with their lives (Kent State University). Not only did the brutal tactics fail to stop the protests but the publicity increased the number of protests. The Protests were so successful that they forced a sitting President from office and eventually to pulling troops out of a Viet Nam.

    Where is that passion and commitment in Virginia?
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
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  23. AlexanderA
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    AlexanderA Member

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    At the moment, the pro-gun side is appearing to have some success. The governor agreeing to grandfathering (with registration, but he may back away from that too), and some Democratic legislators announcing that they have reservations about the bills, is evidence of this. The sudden degree of opposition has taken the antigunners by surprise.

    A big demonstration on January 20 will help in this, if it's done right. As others have said, the key is having the demonstrators look like ordinary fellow citizens. A camo-clad, gun-wielding mob would be counterproductive. Not only legislators, but the general public, would see this as "intimidation." People don't react well to being bullied.

    There's also the danger of this going south in a big way, if it's not well organized and internally controlled. You can bet that groups like Moms Demand Action and Antifa will arrive in droves as counterdemonstrators. The police will have their hands full trying to keep the two sides apart. Let's say an Antifa member, well hidden in some high place, starts taking potshots at the Moms Demand Action and/or the police. Suspicion will immediately fall on the armed pro-gun demonstrators, and the police will start "firing back." Then there will be a general melee and lots of people will be killed.

    I'm not saying that will happen, but we can't exclude the possibility. We have the prototype in what happened in Charlottesville, and this will be much bigger. It will be a magnet for every malcontent -- from both sides -- in the country. Palpable anger drives people to do stupid things.

    This is why we should not come brandishing our AR-15s.
     
  24. Craig_VA
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    Craig_VA Contributing Member

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    Lobby Day on January 20 is a product of the legislature, not VCDL, It is a day for senators and delegates to meet with constituents as they come to the Capitol. All the members of the legislature will be in their offices and ready to meet anyone who comes to see them. You are right, there will be no committee meetings or floor sessions because the members will be meeting with constituents.

    VCDL has been one of the largest and most well organized groups to encourage members to come to Lobby Day. Members both to go into the building to meet with legislators and also to hold a large rally with scheduled speakers outside. Other groups have done the same thing. A few years ago anti-gunners held a parallel rally on Lobby Day. Their numbers were dwarfed by the VCDL rally.

    Here is a news item from2018 on the right to carry firearms into the building:
    Visitors to Va. state house can still carry guns
    Nick Iannelli | @NickWTOP
    An attempt in 2019 to change the law failed. Note that while Virginia is an open carry state, to bring a firearm s in to the capitol building you must have a concealed handgun permit, whether carrying openly or concealed.

    Finally, VCDL schedules busses from all over the state to help folks get to Lobby Day. Seats cost $35. You can support the effort by donating seats. Please consider doing so.
    To donate a seat for another rider, use this link: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/donate-a-seat-on-a-bus-for-lobby-day-jan-20-2020-tickets-85874911171
    If you want to pay by check, mail it to VCDL Treasurer, 19390 Beaver Dam Rd, Beaverdam, VA 23015-1350 - but you'll still need your Eventbrite ticket.
     
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  25. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    "The moment you pick up a firearm you cease to be peaceful..."
    What in the what???
     
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