WACO the rules of engagement

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From the phone transcript: Little girl in compound to negotiator.

"Are you coming to kill me? Are you coming in the compound to kill me?"

I had to wipe my eyes clear when I heard her fearful voice. And I thought that wether it was a cult, wether they had illegal weapons which they did not (if they had RPG'S, SAMS as well as .50 machine guns, they might have survived) or wether some sexually illegal stuff was going on... Murdering children?

McV has my sympathy. :fire:
 
Must be generational...

"That documentary will about make you want to buy a bunch of guns and ammo."

You must be younger than I. The '68 Chicago police riot and Kent State shootings taught me. I've had ammo for EVERY gun I own ever since.
 
this should not be allowed to die

Here is a link to the Texas Rangers' Branch Davidian Evidence:

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/branch_davidian

The Texas Rangers are still not happy with the way ATF
and FBI conducted themselves.

FBI HRT Commander Dick Rogers undercut his negotiators
Peter Smerick, Bryon Sage and Fred Lanceley by ordering
the tactical team to punish the Davidians when Koresh
made agreements with the negotiators. Dick Rogers is
also the one who mishandled the Ruby Ridge siege.

The ATF raid 28 Feb 93 was unnecessary since Koresh
had offered 30 July 92 to let the ATF inspect his guns
and paperwork; instead, ATF planned a high publicity
raid. The 30 July 92 to 28 Feb 93 unsecret investigation
just made Koresh paranoid (but they really were
plotting against him).

To get military training, the ATF told Special Forces at
Ft. Hood that Koresh was running a meth lab--JAG Col.
Thomas Lujan labelled the meth lab claim a lie by ATF
to get military training and national guard helicopters..
ATF did not get a search warrant until the 3rd day of the
Ft. Hood training: the judge did not approve a dynamic
entry raid, but two days later, ATF conducted a dynamic
entry raid on the Davidian church on Sunday morning.

There were so many things wrong with the raid by ATF
on 28 Feb 1993 and the FBI siege 1 Mar - 19 Apr 1993
I could go on for pages.

The Danforth investigation, that was supposed to debunk
Dr. Allard's analysis that showed gunfire from government
positions, did not use the same type of FLIR camera or
the same type of aircraft used to make the original FLIR
tape showing the flashes.

Like the Tuskeegee Syphylis experiments, the third
generation might finally hear the truth.
 
I’m not a LEO basher, but the ATF screwed up big time on this one. Sad thing is the entire incident could have been avoided if they had used their brains instead of their muscle.
 
re: Chuck Schumer's beliefs

This documentary really opened my eyes to Sen. Charles Schumer. I could not believe his comments in the Senate hearings. He is absolutely insane if he believes half of what he was saying; brazenly defending the FBI/ATF when they were clearly in the wrong.
Click to expand...

USNews & World Report
11/28/05
By John Leo
Remaking the Judge

"Well, we can't say he'll have women forced into back-alley abortions, as Teddy did to Bork. That's considered crude today. Our model is what Chuck Schumer did to Charles Pickering. The judge had a segregationist past, then turned around and became a civil rights hero. Charles Evers, Medgar's brother, said Pickering was one of the men who helped break the Klan in Mississippi. But Schumer played the old segregationist card brilliantly, and it worked. You don't argue facts. You create impressions."
 
Having read this extremely long thread with great interest, I viewed RoE the other day. My first thoughts were, I'm sick and ashamed for the acts of my govt. Koresh was not your typical "altar boy" in fact he was IMHO a certified nut. I was under the impression that one of the cornerstones of this country was religeous freedom. One of the most sickening images for me, there were many, was when it was all over was the raising of the ATF flag over the ruins. IMHO it does not matter who fired first. If I see a sh*tload of guys dressedin black, armed to the teeth, running towards MY house I'm not gonna answer the door with coffee and donuts.
 
I too have read this thread. I didn't see to many people come to the rescue of the LEF guys and gals. I don't believe it was a conspiracy of BATF. Rember the climate then Clinton was in power and there was an extreme effort in place to eliminate personal possession of fire arms. Ruby ridge and Waco were reactions to that. What I believe happened was higher ups in the Clinton administration wanted to send a sturn message to those who wanted to violate gun laws. Well it got out of control. Extreme Leftists and extreme Rightists squared off, and most of the Moderists no matter what party line were left to fight the battle. One that colminated in Oklahoma. I have seen the majority of evidence, mistakes were made on both sides.
Let me say this to those who want to meet a search warrant with resistance, (You will Lose!). I remember watching the ATF guys going up on a roof with a ladder. I was shocked! I cannot begin to tell you how many homes I invaded during my carrier or how many search warrants a wrote or served. I can though count on one hand the number of times I did this in day light and I don't need any hands to tell you how many were covered by the media let alone filmed. To blame the hundreds of LEO's who were there doing a job is a disgrace to law enforcement as a whole. I've read some of peoples methods on this web site on how they will protect themselves and their families. Well good luck! My advise is dial 911 prior to any action. I am not justifying all LEO's action. Dick Rogers in my opinion was a cowboy and a prime example of the peter principle. Someone on this link said this was too important of a subject to let drop. Well her ya go, lets see if this gets it going again
regards
Jim
 
JMusic

Bush Sr was POTUS when the Ruby Ridge incident occured. Just so ya know...
Biker
 
On his way out I believe. And that doesn't change the climate all gun owners were under at the time. Think about the media coverage of a shooting then comparred to now. How many congressional reviews have happened lately. Thanks though Biker I guess I can't blame it ALL on Clinton.
 
Hell, I was blaming it on Clinton too 'till one of my Bros 'edified' me. That little bet cost me a 12-pack.:(
Biker
 
Let me say this to those who want to meet a search warrant with resistance, (You will Lose!).
Click to expand...
JMusic, one of the issue in contention with the Waco debacle was just WHO fired first. F-Troop contends that the Davidians fired first, while the Davidians contend that it was F-Troop. IIRC, a crucial peice of evidence about WHO fired first was the front door of Davidans home. A peice of evidence that went "missing" and has yet to be found. :scrutiny:

Yes, resisting an armed hostile incursion by "agents of the law" will likely end up with the resister dead. But with a little luck, they will take some of the [CENSORED] with 'em.
That little bet cost me a 12-pack.
Click to expand...
Well, drinking is bad for you anyways. :D
 
I remember watching the hearings after the fact. The Delta Force commander that helped train F-Troop said that the evacuation plan was actually an "Oh s--t" plan and was unworkable. If I remember correctly, the purpose of the raid was to create a positive event for the ATF because they were under scrutiny at the time and in danger of losing funds.

Every local law enforcement official involved scoffed at the ATF and the FBI's handling of the situation. Sadly, none of the commanders of either organization were ever brought to justice, but the survivors of the Davidians were railroaded into prison.
 
Biker I am disappointed he got 6?!?! Well at least you held your own.
Sindawe my reply was to some comments made last summer. Your better off letting LEO serve the warrant. Doesn't matter if you try to meet force with force. The force serving the warrant is an unlimitted force They can be outsmarted but you won't out gun them. I don't know a LEO who thinks Waca wasn't a debacle and an embarasement. I don't have a high degree of confidence in the FBI or the BATF conducting this type of operation. I believe that many City and County agencies are more proficient. This may have changed though I have been out for a while.
Thanks for the comments guys.
Jim
 
The Ruby Ridge Hearings in the Senate were halfway fair in
part because the Clinton Administration saw it as a Bush
Administration problem (Aug 1992). The House hearings on
Waco were all KYA. Ruby Ridge and Waco were the result of
a federal obsession with SWAT and SOG paramilitary
tactics dating back to the 1960s race and antiwar riots
IT was a systemic problem, not Bush or Clinton alone.
 
Derek Zeanah said:
Back in my comparative religions class (Catholic high school, ya know) we went over the definitions of "cults." The teacher wasn't amused when I pointed out that according to their definitions, the Catholic Church met most of the guidelines as well...

You need to watch these sorts of accusations. There are people here (and in the US in general), who would happily label catholics, mormons, jehova's witnesses, quakers, and other non-mainstream non-fundamentalist groups "cults." Others would do the same with the fundies.

There's this interesting thing about this country though: historically, we've always valued religious freedom more than any other nation on earth. It's even codified in the first amendment to the constitution.

To suggest that it was somehow more OK to burn children to death in their homebuilt church because it was really a "compound" and they weren't so much churchgoers but a "kooky cult" strikes me as a terribly offensive way to view the entire situation.

Dammit, I want to live in a country where the government doesn't burn any children to death in any buildings, whether they're viewed as a legitimate church or not. But my standards might be higher than most...
Click to expand...


Good info here.
 
Extract from:
Legal Aspects of Domestic Employment of the Army

COL. THOMAS R. LUJAN, JAG

Parameters
The U.S. Army War College Quarterly
Autumn 1997, pp. 82-97.

. . . .

Joint Task Force 6 is a long-standing operational unit; in 1993,
it was under the operational control of US Army Forces Command
(FORSCOM) and the United States Atlantic Command (USACOM). For
several years this standing task force, located just outside Fort
Bliss, Texas, was a key part of Operation Alliance, a joint
local, state, and federal entity that provided an intelligence
fusion center and rapid response for surveillance needs along the
Southwest border.

Essentially, requests for military support of law enforcement
agencies would flow into JTF 6, be vetted by its staff as having
the appropriate drug nexus, and be approved with deployment
orders transmitted by the JCS. Major projects included area, as
opposed to pinpoint, surveillance and reporting, and the use of
aviation assets to ferry law enforcement officers. Soldiers
detailed to JTF 6 were attached to that organization from their
parent unit for specified periods of time; thus a Special Forces
Operational Detachment with supporting aviation was part of a
Rapid Reaction Support Unit assigned to JTF 6 in early 1993 for a
six-month period.

During this same period a request came into Operation Alliance
for military assets to support a BATF operation against a
methamphetamine laboratory located on the outskirts of Waco. The
request detailed the needs of the BATF: military training in the
specific areas of medical treatment, communications procedures,
operational plan development, review, and approval, and "room
clearing discriminate fire operations," termed "close-quarter
combat" by the military. More important, the BATF requested that
Army medics and communicators actually accompany them to the
forward staging base if not on the actual mission. Clearly, the
request was more expansive than those normally received.

The original request was initially approved by the JTF 6 staff.
However, questions by the Commander of the Special Forces
detachment relayed to his home-unit legal advisor resulted in a
review of the extent of Army involvement. Consequently, in the
actual operation the Army provided only a training site at Fort
Hood, safety inspection of the training lanes set up by the BATF,
and medical and communications training and equipment. All
members of the Special Forces detachment departed the training
site at Fort Hood before the operation at the Branch Davidian
compound took place.

The results of the attempt by the BATF to forcibly serve a
warrant at the Branch Davidian compound were disastrous. In the
initial assault, four BATF agents were killed and 20 were
wounded, the greatest loss of life in the bureau's history. Six
Branch Davidian members were killed and four were wounded. The
resulting siege captured the attention of the nation, and its
tragic, fiery conclusion two months later resulted in the deaths
of 74 Branch Davidians, including 21 children under the age of 14.

While some lessons for America's military leaders from this
incident remain obscure, there are at least three that can be
derived from it.

First, military decisionmakers cannot rely on the assertions of
other federal agencies.

The BATF knew of the requirement to establish a drug nexus in
order to obtain needed military support from JTF 6. Authoritative
evidence conclusively demonstrates that any precursor chemical or
methamphetamine connection at the Waco compound had occurred in
1987, fully six years before the raid. It is probable that David
Koresh was in fact responsible for expelling the member involved
in the fledgling illegal drug activity, going so far as to report
the offender to police. The six-year lapse in these events
clearly attenuates the underlying rationale for illegal drug
activity; the BATF request nevertheless boldly asserted the
needed nexus.

It became clear from the after-action reports and investigations
that BATF's primary interest in this case stemmed from their
conclusion that the Branch Davidians were stockpiling weapons in
their compound. That conclusion perhaps could have been
foreshadowed by a series of anomalies related to the BATF request
for Special Forces support. They were the peripheral nature of
BATF in drug operations (usually spearheaded by the Drug
Enforcement Agency at the federal level), the lack of involvement
of the specialized drug laboratory reaction force, and the
extensive nature of military support requested. All provided
strong indications that further command inquiry was advisable.
And although the commanding general of the JTF testified before
Congress that he saw no reason to pierce the veil of the BATF
request, the implications of this sequence of events should be
understood by commanders and senior staff officers engaged in
such operations in the future.

The specter of members of the Army's special operations forces
accompanying BATF agents storming a religious compound, however
misguided its leader, could have seriously compromised public
support of the US Army. Had the initial request been approved (it
was) and acted upon (it wasn't), this could easily have been the
single most debilitating event to occur within the Army since the
tragedy at My Lai. In fact, this occurrence could have been even
more egregious because it would have taken place on American
soil, would have been a clear violation of the Posse Comitatus
Act, and would have raised the issue of military involvement in a
case of alleged religious freedom.

The second important lesson for both leaders and followers is to
recognize that the military's fervor to complete the mission, so
essential in desperate battles to take the high ground, needs to
be curtailed while supporting other federal agencies in
suppressing drugs.

The military mentality that breeds conformance and dedication to
team effort must give way to healthy skepticism and critical
analysis. Missions such as those described above are on the
periphery of the role of the US Army. Any actual or perceived
departure from applicable legal restrictions can lead to an
unacceptable loss of confidence in the Army. In testimony before
Congress, the officer who questioned the legality of the proposed
mission at Waco related that his JTF 6 counterpart, a
higher-ranking officer, had indicated that the witness was being
an unwarranted obstacle to mission success. In fact, the officer
who objected to the mission was asking probing questions for all
the right reasons, thus precluding a significant role for the
Army in the debacle at Waco.

Finally, leaders can take heart from the fact that the training
and experience of today's soldiers allow them to make the right
decisions in situations fraught with career and personal
implications.

Granted, in this instance the soldiers were mature commissioned
and noncommissioned officers with substantial operational
experience. However, at considerable personal risk they had the
integrity and wisdom to question the propriety of the proposed
mission within their operational chain of command. When the
answer did not comport with their training and experience, they
had the moral courage to go outside official channels to receive
an independent legal opinion from their parent unit's legal
advisor. Had they simply gone along with the attitude that an
order is an order, they would have involved the Army in a
violation of Posse Comitatus, contributed to a great scandal,
potentially subjected themselves to personal liability, and
unnecessarily complicated the criminal prosecutions.

. . . .
Click to expand...
End of Extract
 
Carl that pretty much says it. It was a debacle. You are right Special Weapons and Tactics was a result of a NEED for LE to be able to reply to lethal situations in a professional effort. Los Angelas and New York were the preceved leaders in the field after being trained by the military. Tactics were slightly different though. We called this East coast/ West coast tactics. Correct or not West coast was considered to be more aggressive. Most SO's and large PD's in my area OH. at the time preferred the West coast mentality. We did use military resources occasionaly but always to utilize their equipment such as night vision devises. SWAT though was always considered a surgical option.
I can't believe the BATF was seeking training on drug issues. The Military officer was dead on in questioning this reasoning. The DEA by this time was a well established agency and had total juristiction for federal drug issues. What were they thinking.
Jim
 
JMusic, I read the BATF's warrant. (I'm reasonably convinced it was a true copy.) It contained lies about Koresh and his alleged "reclusive" behavior.

There was "street talk" about upcoming budget hearings for BATF, to occur some two weeks after the raid. They wanted good PR. A BATF friend of over 20 years' standing confirmed this as common knowledge within the agency.

Regardless of the immediate outcomes of the Ruby Ridge and Waco hearings, they affected later behavior by federal agencies. Think back to the Montana Freedmen and the Republic of Texas standoffs.

Art
 
The HRT was reorganized under the Critical Incident Response Group,
with the Negotiators given equal status to the Tactical, and if there
was not live gunfire, negotiations first, tactical as a last resort.
The Freeman stand-off and the Puerto Rican firing range stand-off
were handled differently, because lessons learned at Waco.

But, none of this was in response to the critics :rolleyes: because
the folks who criticised incinerating an integrated (40% non-white)
group, the Branch Davidians, were all white supremacists. :confused:

If the criticism is not recognised as valid, how long will it be before
the lessons are forgotten?
 
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