rock jock
Member
Their No. 1 agenda is profit and glory.
WACO the rules of engagement
- Thread starter bamawrx
- Start date
- Status
If you had seen the spraying equipment mounted to the combat engineering tanks (modified M60s, IIRC), you could see how a couple of 55 gallon drums of binary concoction could easily been mounted. Then multiply that times three tanks.
RockJock, you're doing rather poorly in this debate. Maybe you should lay low like your buddy DMF.
Rick
Hey Rick, not laying low, just a little busy to deal with some of the tinhatted nonsense.
No time to dig up the details, but things like FLIR tests have been the subject of much BS here. The only objection the BD lawyers raised over the tests was the use of M-16s with 20" barrels rather than 14" barrels, despite the fact the test protocol had been discussed and negotiated extensively. Also, many other weapons were fired, and the flashes due to reflection were repeated.
Anyway, the nonsense about the raid being a PR stunt has been repeated so many times people just believe it without checking the facts. Do some real research. A newspaper was planning on doing a series of articles about Howell, the BDs, and the allegations of sexual abuse. ATF made a deal to keep them informed if they would delay the articles because they were worried the articles would upset Howell, and increase the chance that Howell et al would resist violently. The raid was delayed several times, and the reporters got impatient, on the day of the raid they tipped off other media sources.
Again, once they learned of the widespread leak, and tip off of the BDs, it MAY have been a good idea to call of the raid. However, hindsight is 20/20, and regardless, there was no justification for the BDs to violently resist the service of those warrants.
On the issue of the Posse Comitatus Act, having military members advising and observing is NOT a violation of the PCA. PCA and the other statutory limits on military support to civilian LE, deal with direct participation, not advising and observing.
Again, I'm too tired, and frankly too busy to dig up the links today. Regardless people need to examine both sides of this issue, and make objective judgements, rather than looking for things to support their preconceived notions. I'm sure some will accuse me of only looking at one side also, but I assure I've takent the time to look at both sides. However, if it weren't for people like rock jock and myself, only one side would get presented here.
It was a tragedy, I have said that before, and will say it again. However, while tactical errors may have been made, there was still no justification for the violent attack by Howell et al on the ATF while serving those warrants. Also, even if you believe that Howell and the others were justified in attacking the ATF, what is the justification for the repeated lies told during the 51 day standoff? Howell did not want a peaceful outcome, either on the first day or the 51st. Unfortunately the ATF, and later the FBI, did not fully understand his fanaticism, and his control over his followers, and the tragedy unfolded. However, as I've said repeatedly hindsight is 20/20, but the ATF could not have predicted the outcome at the onset, and the genesis of this tragedy begins with the violent attack of the Howell and his followers.
Do some objective research rather than only listening to the conspiracy theorists.
No time to dig up the details, but things like FLIR tests have been the subject of much BS here. The only objection the BD lawyers raised over the tests was the use of M-16s with 20" barrels rather than 14" barrels, despite the fact the test protocol had been discussed and negotiated extensively. Also, many other weapons were fired, and the flashes due to reflection were repeated.
Anyway, the nonsense about the raid being a PR stunt has been repeated so many times people just believe it without checking the facts. Do some real research. A newspaper was planning on doing a series of articles about Howell, the BDs, and the allegations of sexual abuse. ATF made a deal to keep them informed if they would delay the articles because they were worried the articles would upset Howell, and increase the chance that Howell et al would resist violently. The raid was delayed several times, and the reporters got impatient, on the day of the raid they tipped off other media sources.
Again, once they learned of the widespread leak, and tip off of the BDs, it MAY have been a good idea to call of the raid. However, hindsight is 20/20, and regardless, there was no justification for the BDs to violently resist the service of those warrants.
On the issue of the Posse Comitatus Act, having military members advising and observing is NOT a violation of the PCA. PCA and the other statutory limits on military support to civilian LE, deal with direct participation, not advising and observing.
Again, I'm too tired, and frankly too busy to dig up the links today. Regardless people need to examine both sides of this issue, and make objective judgements, rather than looking for things to support their preconceived notions. I'm sure some will accuse me of only looking at one side also, but I assure I've takent the time to look at both sides. However, if it weren't for people like rock jock and myself, only one side would get presented here.
It was a tragedy, I have said that before, and will say it again. However, while tactical errors may have been made, there was still no justification for the violent attack by Howell et al on the ATF while serving those warrants. Also, even if you believe that Howell and the others were justified in attacking the ATF, what is the justification for the repeated lies told during the 51 day standoff? Howell did not want a peaceful outcome, either on the first day or the 51st. Unfortunately the ATF, and later the FBI, did not fully understand his fanaticism, and his control over his followers, and the tragedy unfolded. However, as I've said repeatedly hindsight is 20/20, but the ATF could not have predicted the outcome at the onset, and the genesis of this tragedy begins with the violent attack of the Howell and his followers.
Do some objective research rather than only listening to the conspiracy theorists.
They used NG helicopters and tanks and used a local military base to train -- they lied about the drug nexus. They lied about the "full-auto" parts. They lied about the warrant. They lied about who shot first. They lied about firing from the helicopters. They lied about the cameras and the "lost" film. They shot a boy who was on top of a water tower. They did it to showcase themselves for budget testimony in Congress.
Newspapers? They had TV crews there, bub.
Remember this: "Showtime! Showtime! Showtime!"
Rick
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dustind
Member
Where the FLIR expert tests done with the original tape, or a low quality copied version? Why would the feds fight over sending out copies of the tape if the tape does not make them look bad?
DMF: How does the "missing" evidence and false statements fit with your version of the events?
DMF: How does the "missing" evidence and false statements fit with your version of the events?
Transparent rationalization
"....the ATF could not have predicted the outcome at the onset, and the genesis of this tragedy begins with the violent attack of the Howell and his followers."
Perhaps "the ATF could not have predicted the outcome," but any remotely sentient being familiar with Koresh - as ATF should have been - certainly could have. Let's review:
1. Self-proclaimed messiah;
2. Predicts the end of the world;
3. In which his followers will be persecuted by the forces of darkness;
4. For which Armageddon, his followers prepare by stockpiling weapons and food, building bunkers and practicing their shooting skills.
ATF - due to its alleged inability to predict an obvious outcome based upon the known facts stated above:
1. Ignores numerous opportunities to seize Koresh in town, OUT of the compound and AWAY from most of his followers;
2. Throws away the crucial element of surprise;
3. Wilfully goes forward anyway by:
a. Launching a frontal assault;
b. Against the self-proclaimed messiah;
c. In FRONT of his followers;
d. On Koresh's own turf.
How do YOU spell "cretinous?" Or "flagarantly irresponsible?" Can you say "RECKLESS ENGANGERMENT?" How about "MANSLAUGHTER?" Or "CULPABLE?"
"....the ATF could not have predicted the outcome at the onset, and the genesis of this tragedy begins with the violent attack of the Howell and his followers."
Perhaps "the ATF could not have predicted the outcome," but any remotely sentient being familiar with Koresh - as ATF should have been - certainly could have. Let's review:
1. Self-proclaimed messiah;
2. Predicts the end of the world;
3. In which his followers will be persecuted by the forces of darkness;
4. For which Armageddon, his followers prepare by stockpiling weapons and food, building bunkers and practicing their shooting skills.
ATF - due to its alleged inability to predict an obvious outcome based upon the known facts stated above:
1. Ignores numerous opportunities to seize Koresh in town, OUT of the compound and AWAY from most of his followers;
2. Throws away the crucial element of surprise;
3. Wilfully goes forward anyway by:
a. Launching a frontal assault;
b. Against the self-proclaimed messiah;
c. In FRONT of his followers;
d. On Koresh's own turf.
How do YOU spell "cretinous?" Or "flagarantly irresponsible?" Can you say "RECKLESS ENGANGERMENT?" How about "MANSLAUGHTER?" Or "CULPABLE?"
Waitone
Member
BTW, FBIbATFEETC was wholly devoted to psychological profilists and relied heavily on their pronouncements. They ignored a number of theological profilers the most prominent of which was a guru out of Duke Divinity School. Anyone with just a little training in theology would have pickup up on Koresh's belief system and could have predicted bad things ahead.
Then again I am assuming FBIbATFEETC was interested in resolving the issue without theatrics.
Then again I am assuming FBIbATFEETC was interested in resolving the issue without theatrics.
rock jock
Member
Rick,
How in the world can you make a statement like this unless you were there?
Sindawe
Member
I'm not Rick, but IMHO I concur with his statement. Given the ATF's and FBI's record here of falsehood and outright lying (drugs, full auto parts, etc...) and the bulldozing of the crime scene and the mysterious "loss" of the front door, it is more likely than not that the ATF fired first.
bamawrx
Member
911 tape shows evidence that the ATF shot first.
The occupants on the tape are screaming for the ATF to stop shooting at them. At one point you can hear a guy say "I have a right to defend myself, they are shooting at me..." The 911 operator is trying as hard as he can to get the feds on the radio, but no reply. Its a hard tape to listen to.
The occupants on the tape are screaming for the ATF to stop shooting at them. At one point you can hear a guy say "I have a right to defend myself, they are shooting at me..." The 911 operator is trying as hard as he can to get the feds on the radio, but no reply. Its a hard tape to listen to.
NIGHTWATCH
Member
"The Branch Davidians at Mount Carmel were not armed with any illegal weapons. The local sheriff had inspected their weapons not long before, and found them all to be legal. None of the Branch Davidians were ever charged with — or convicted of — any such weapons violations. The prosecution promised to hold up samples of their illegal weapons at the trial of the Branch Davidian survivors in San Antonio, but never did so. There were none.
Since when is it the responsibility of those who are attacked by armed government helicopters and machine guns and finally tanks to "muster enough public support to succeed"? This is like saying the Jews obviously had no right to survive in the Warsaw ghetto in 1943, because they "could not muster enough public support to succeed." I find this doctrine hideous.
Waco proves that Americans need to own machine guns and anti-tank missiles, and keep them in their homes. Otherwise, government agents anxious for some "good TV footage" to show at their congressional funding hearings will come to our homes and kill us and our children. This is not some paranoid fantasy. We all watched it happen on TV, in Texas, in 1993. - Vin Suprynowicz ~ Las Vegas Review Journal, Feb 11th 2000.
Since when is it the responsibility of those who are attacked by armed government helicopters and machine guns and finally tanks to "muster enough public support to succeed"? This is like saying the Jews obviously had no right to survive in the Warsaw ghetto in 1943, because they "could not muster enough public support to succeed." I find this doctrine hideous.
Waco proves that Americans need to own machine guns and anti-tank missiles, and keep them in their homes. Otherwise, government agents anxious for some "good TV footage" to show at their congressional funding hearings will come to our homes and kill us and our children. This is not some paranoid fantasy. We all watched it happen on TV, in Texas, in 1993. - Vin Suprynowicz ~ Las Vegas Review Journal, Feb 11th 2000.
This is part of a transcript of the affidavit used by the BATF in order to obtain a search warrant of the Brand Davidian compound in Waco, TX.
......"Also on June 8, 1992, I interviewed and learned from her that in May of 1992 her company shipped to the "Mag-Bag" 2 M-16 machine gun CAR kits and 2 M-16 machine gun EZ kits. These kits contain all the parts of an M-16 machine gun except for the lower receiver unit which is the "firearm" by lawful definition. Ms. stated that the total amount of sales to the "Mag-Bag" was $1227.00. Within the past month I have spoken with , firearms technician with BATF and have learned that . has been under investigation in the past by BATF for engaging in a scheme to supply parts which would enable individuals to construct illegal weapons from various component parts."
....."At that time the invoices accompanying a number of packages reflected that they contained firearm parts and accessories as well as various chemicals. He stated that in May 1992, a package which was addressed to the "Mag-Bag" accidentally broke open while it was being loaded on his delivery truck. He saw that it contained three other boxes, the contents of which were "pineapple" type hand grenades which he believed to be inert. He stated that there were about 50 of the grenades and that he later delivered them to the Mt. Carmel Center."
..... "and learned from her that in May of 1992 her company shipped to the "Mag-Bag" 2 M-16 machine gun CAR kits and 2 M-16 machine gun EZ kits."
...."1 M-76 grenade launcher (not a typo, this is what it says) 200 M-31 practice rifle grenades 4 M-16 parts set kits "A" 2 flare launchers 2 cases (approximately 50) inert practice hand grenades 40-50 pounds of black gunpowder 30 pounds of potassium nitrate 5 pounds of magnesium metal powder 1 pound of igniter cord (a Class C explosive) 91 AR-15 lower receiver units 26 various calibers and brands of handguns and long guns 90 pounds of aluminum metal powder 30-40 cardboard tubes "
..."July of 1991 she saw Howell shooting a machine gun on the back portion of the commune property. She knew it was a machine gun because it functioned with a very rapid fire and would tear up the ground when Howell shot it."
....."She is sure the firearm was a machine gun because of the rapid rate of fire and the rate of fire was much different from that which was usually conducted during practice exercises on the compound. After describing the firing of this weapon to me, I believe that Ms. was describing the firing of an automatic weapon."
......."she overheard Howell and his closest associates discussing machine guns."
....."40 foreign nationals from Jamaica, United Kingdom, Israel, Australia, and New Zealand have entered the United States at various times in the past and have used the address of the Mt. Carmel Center, Waco, Texas, as their point of contact while here. According to INS records, most of these foreign nationals have overstayed their entry permits or visas and are therefore illegally in the United States. I know that it is a violation of Title 18, U.S.C. Section 922, for an illegal alien to receive a firearm."
..."also related that she was present at one of the study periods held by Howell when Howell passed his personal AK-47 machine gun around for the group to handle and look over. "
San Antonio Express-News, Feb 23, 2000
By Dick J. Reavis
For the first time, a Branch Davidian survivor of the Feb. 28, 1993, shootout at Mount Carmel has admitted that he fired at two of the four U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents who were killed during the battle.
His admission came as a surprise to fellow Davidian survivors of the 1993 events. One of them, David Thibodeau, in a memoir published in the fall, repeated the accepted wisdom among the group that Fagan, whose manner is that of a theologian, "was kneeling in prayer in the chapel while the bullets were flying." During their 1994 trial, Fagan and his fellow Davidian defendants did not take the stand. In the years since, three survivors of the shootout have testified before Congress, but none admitted firing on federal agents. During the 1994 sentencing hearing, Smith said: "The evidence from this trial has not faded from my memory. Certain images are clear. I see Livingstone Fagan dressed in combat gear, coldly shooting down Eric Evers with a military rifle as he rounded the corner of the compound and came into view. As Evers tried to get up, Fagan shot him twice more."
Special Counsel John C. Danforth today delivered to Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder his Final Report Concerning the 1993 Confrontation at the Mt. Carmel Complex, Waco, Texas. This Report unequivocally reaffirms the conclusions contained in the Special Counsel's Interim Report of July 21, 2000.
Specifically:
Government agents did not start the fire at Waco;
Government agents did not shoot at the Branch Davidians on April 19, 1993;
Government agents did not improperly use the United States military;
Government agents did not engage in a massive conspiracy and cover-up. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of Attorney General Reno, the present and former Director of the FBI, other high officials of the United States, or the individual members of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team who fired three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds on April 19, 1993.
Responsibility for the tragedy at Waco rests with certain of the Branch Davidians and their leader, David Koresh, who shot and killed four ATF agents, wounded twenty others, shot at FBI agents trying to insert tear gas into the complex, burned down the complex, and shot at least twenty of their own people, including five children.
Exploring through the ashes, Texas Ranger found 47 machine guns!
......"Also on June 8, 1992, I interviewed and learned from her that in May of 1992 her company shipped to the "Mag-Bag" 2 M-16 machine gun CAR kits and 2 M-16 machine gun EZ kits. These kits contain all the parts of an M-16 machine gun except for the lower receiver unit which is the "firearm" by lawful definition. Ms. stated that the total amount of sales to the "Mag-Bag" was $1227.00. Within the past month I have spoken with , firearms technician with BATF and have learned that . has been under investigation in the past by BATF for engaging in a scheme to supply parts which would enable individuals to construct illegal weapons from various component parts."
....."At that time the invoices accompanying a number of packages reflected that they contained firearm parts and accessories as well as various chemicals. He stated that in May 1992, a package which was addressed to the "Mag-Bag" accidentally broke open while it was being loaded on his delivery truck. He saw that it contained three other boxes, the contents of which were "pineapple" type hand grenades which he believed to be inert. He stated that there were about 50 of the grenades and that he later delivered them to the Mt. Carmel Center."
..... "and learned from her that in May of 1992 her company shipped to the "Mag-Bag" 2 M-16 machine gun CAR kits and 2 M-16 machine gun EZ kits."
...."1 M-76 grenade launcher (not a typo, this is what it says) 200 M-31 practice rifle grenades 4 M-16 parts set kits "A" 2 flare launchers 2 cases (approximately 50) inert practice hand grenades 40-50 pounds of black gunpowder 30 pounds of potassium nitrate 5 pounds of magnesium metal powder 1 pound of igniter cord (a Class C explosive) 91 AR-15 lower receiver units 26 various calibers and brands of handguns and long guns 90 pounds of aluminum metal powder 30-40 cardboard tubes "
..."July of 1991 she saw Howell shooting a machine gun on the back portion of the commune property. She knew it was a machine gun because it functioned with a very rapid fire and would tear up the ground when Howell shot it."
....."She is sure the firearm was a machine gun because of the rapid rate of fire and the rate of fire was much different from that which was usually conducted during practice exercises on the compound. After describing the firing of this weapon to me, I believe that Ms. was describing the firing of an automatic weapon."
......."she overheard Howell and his closest associates discussing machine guns."
....."40 foreign nationals from Jamaica, United Kingdom, Israel, Australia, and New Zealand have entered the United States at various times in the past and have used the address of the Mt. Carmel Center, Waco, Texas, as their point of contact while here. According to INS records, most of these foreign nationals have overstayed their entry permits or visas and are therefore illegally in the United States. I know that it is a violation of Title 18, U.S.C. Section 922, for an illegal alien to receive a firearm."
..."also related that she was present at one of the study periods held by Howell when Howell passed his personal AK-47 machine gun around for the group to handle and look over. "
San Antonio Express-News, Feb 23, 2000
By Dick J. Reavis
For the first time, a Branch Davidian survivor of the Feb. 28, 1993, shootout at Mount Carmel has admitted that he fired at two of the four U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents who were killed during the battle.
His admission came as a surprise to fellow Davidian survivors of the 1993 events. One of them, David Thibodeau, in a memoir published in the fall, repeated the accepted wisdom among the group that Fagan, whose manner is that of a theologian, "was kneeling in prayer in the chapel while the bullets were flying." During their 1994 trial, Fagan and his fellow Davidian defendants did not take the stand. In the years since, three survivors of the shootout have testified before Congress, but none admitted firing on federal agents. During the 1994 sentencing hearing, Smith said: "The evidence from this trial has not faded from my memory. Certain images are clear. I see Livingstone Fagan dressed in combat gear, coldly shooting down Eric Evers with a military rifle as he rounded the corner of the compound and came into view. As Evers tried to get up, Fagan shot him twice more."
Special Counsel John C. Danforth today delivered to Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder his Final Report Concerning the 1993 Confrontation at the Mt. Carmel Complex, Waco, Texas. This Report unequivocally reaffirms the conclusions contained in the Special Counsel's Interim Report of July 21, 2000.
Specifically:
Government agents did not start the fire at Waco;
Government agents did not shoot at the Branch Davidians on April 19, 1993;
Government agents did not improperly use the United States military;
Government agents did not engage in a massive conspiracy and cover-up. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of Attorney General Reno, the present and former Director of the FBI, other high officials of the United States, or the individual members of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team who fired three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds on April 19, 1993.
Responsibility for the tragedy at Waco rests with certain of the Branch Davidians and their leader, David Koresh, who shot and killed four ATF agents, wounded twenty others, shot at FBI agents trying to insert tear gas into the complex, burned down the complex, and shot at least twenty of their own people, including five children.
Exploring through the ashes, Texas Ranger found 47 machine guns!
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Telewinz (and others)
Oh yeah, I think you convinced me.
I'll just ignore all the other rebutting facts.
BTW: Is that 46 or 47 machine guns? And does machine gun constitute "hellfire device"?
Since when does this justify leading a military assault on the citizens of the United States? INCLUDING children...AFTER the sheriff had already checked out said weapons. Yeah we all believe the federals were truthful in their testimony.
As for that evidence I am sorry but all that should have been tossed out in court. By their own admission, in testimony before congress, then BATF director Stephen Higgns said they had NO probable cause to conduct the raid upon the compound as they did. Yeah if I were Koresh and Co I think I would appeal. Oh wait, HE CAN'T, he's dead...law when used unlawfully is not law. It's iniquity. If one portion of the facts from a source are proven not true then all of that testimony MUST be tossed. That's like trying to put a liar on the witness stand then trying to pick out when he's lying and when he's not. Ever see SNL's Tommy Flanagan: "Yeah, that's the ticket". He'd just keep twisting the lies a little more until they would be accepted for truth.
First agents didn't fire, then later they admitted they did, then they didn't use incendiary devices, then they may have used one. Yeah right. Then they weren't firing from the helicopters, then they were, but weren't using mounted machine guns. Whatever. That's by their own testimony. I don't care to argue the details, it's a worthless thing to do. See my previous post. Those facts are undeniable. All parties involved already made the bed, predominately the ATF, but Koresh to a minor degree. Now all I see is a bunch of people arguing about the wrinkles in the bedspread.
Koresh and his followers can't appeal, they can't defend themselves in court. Nope, most assuredly they are the losers. Guess what that means? History can be written anyway the winner sees fit. Guess we'll have to wait 40-50 years until some of this info is available to the general public.
So quit trying to demonize people who can't defend themselves. Even though I do think he was a kook, but that's beside the point. Look, if you can lie to yourself that because this guy was not normal. If you can do that and it helps you sleep better at night, that's fine. Just don't try to sell that to the rest of us.
Oh yeah, I think you convinced me.
I'll just ignore all the other rebutting facts.BTW: Is that 46 or 47 machine guns? And does machine gun constitute "hellfire device"?
Since when does this justify leading a military assault on the citizens of the United States? INCLUDING children...AFTER the sheriff had already checked out said weapons. Yeah we all believe the federals were truthful in their testimony.
As for that evidence I am sorry but all that should have been tossed out in court. By their own admission, in testimony before congress, then BATF director Stephen Higgns said they had NO probable cause to conduct the raid upon the compound as they did. Yeah if I were Koresh and Co I think I would appeal. Oh wait, HE CAN'T, he's dead...law when used unlawfully is not law. It's iniquity. If one portion of the facts from a source are proven not true then all of that testimony MUST be tossed. That's like trying to put a liar on the witness stand then trying to pick out when he's lying and when he's not. Ever see SNL's Tommy Flanagan: "Yeah, that's the ticket". He'd just keep twisting the lies a little more until they would be accepted for truth.
First agents didn't fire, then later they admitted they did, then they didn't use incendiary devices, then they may have used one. Yeah right. Then they weren't firing from the helicopters, then they were, but weren't using mounted machine guns. Whatever. That's by their own testimony. I don't care to argue the details, it's a worthless thing to do. See my previous post. Those facts are undeniable. All parties involved already made the bed, predominately the ATF, but Koresh to a minor degree. Now all I see is a bunch of people arguing about the wrinkles in the bedspread.
Koresh and his followers can't appeal, they can't defend themselves in court. Nope, most assuredly they are the losers. Guess what that means? History can be written anyway the winner sees fit. Guess we'll have to wait 40-50 years until some of this info is available to the general public.
So quit trying to demonize people who can't defend themselves. Even though I do think he was a kook, but that's beside the point. Look, if you can lie to yourself that because this guy was not normal. If you can do that and it helps you sleep better at night, that's fine. Just don't try to sell that to the rest of us.
Crosshair
Member
The simple fact is that the ATF LIED about most everything to get the warrants. Then come up with an assault plan straight out of a Tom Clancy novel. Then get pissed when they effectivly get their asses handed to them. Then they get tired of the siege and decide to pump overwelming amounts of flamable CS gas and other compounds into the building. I'll admit that either the Davidians or the ATF could have started the fire. But the ATF not allowing fire trucks to go fight the fire is simply criminal. Of course the ATF and FBI don't help themselves by "loosing" evidence, lying about the CS gernades, FLIR video, destroying the burned out building, and other aspects of Waco.
The ATF and FBI started this fight and went hell bent to cover their own asses when the SHTF.
The ATF and FBI started this fight and went hell bent to cover their own asses when the SHTF.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
DMF and other government apologists...
The FBI testified under oath that there were no gas canisters at Waco that were capable of causing fires. This was later proven to be a lie and the FBI changed its story to:"Well, it was there but it was never used."
Tell me your answer to these questions: The FBI lied about this throughout all the hearings. Then they were caught in a lie and changed their story. Why should the second story be trusted? Given that they are proven liars...why should they be trusted about anything they say at anytime?
I've been on the sidelines watching two FBI investigations. Based on what I witnessed personally, if a federal government employee tells me that the sun will rise in the east in the morning then I will check that statement with a watch and a compass.
In one investigation, the FBI raided a man's home to arrest him after an extensive investigation. Only one problem...not only was he not home-he wasn't even in the state. This guy lived a hundred yards off the highway. In plain view with no shrubbery or trees around the house. With one driveway leading out of the property. He drove a bright orange Chevrolet pickup with tractor trailer type exhaust pipes behind the cab. The FBI didn't see it leave. And didn't notice before the raid that it was not there...no garage. Real competent employees of the people. I feel so safe with such protectors available.
The FBI testified under oath that there were no gas canisters at Waco that were capable of causing fires. This was later proven to be a lie and the FBI changed its story to:"Well, it was there but it was never used."
Tell me your answer to these questions: The FBI lied about this throughout all the hearings. Then they were caught in a lie and changed their story. Why should the second story be trusted? Given that they are proven liars...why should they be trusted about anything they say at anytime?
I've been on the sidelines watching two FBI investigations. Based on what I witnessed personally, if a federal government employee tells me that the sun will rise in the east in the morning then I will check that statement with a watch and a compass.
In one investigation, the FBI raided a man's home to arrest him after an extensive investigation. Only one problem...not only was he not home-he wasn't even in the state. This guy lived a hundred yards off the highway. In plain view with no shrubbery or trees around the house. With one driveway leading out of the property. He drove a bright orange Chevrolet pickup with tractor trailer type exhaust pipes behind the cab. The FBI didn't see it leave. And didn't notice before the raid that it was not there...no garage. Real competent employees of the people. I feel so safe with such protectors available.
rock jock
Member
I have not brought this up before, because I think the facts of the case present themselves well enough on their own merit. However, I feel this point is a good time to present a very basic concept that effectively invalidates the ROE premise, which is, conspiracies don't work.
Consider for a moment that in order for this mass murder conspriacy to work, literally dozens of federal agents would have to be part of the planning and would have to give their tacit approval, not only of the actual activities that led to the "murder", but also of the coverup. Their oath to secrecy would have to be so complete that they could not dare to reveal even a single secret to anybody outside their circle of conspirators. Now consider the fact that these agents came from multiple agencies and different locations. Consider also the fact that, even if there was an initial group of conspirators that planned the initial raid, that they would have had to add others in to their secret cabal and very quickly. Each of the men would have had to evaluate the plot laid before them, which essentially involved mass murder of innocent children and a massive coverup, and would have had to accept immediately. The conspirators could not take the chance that they would try to recruit someone who refused. Afterall, that individual could later blow the wistle on them all. Furthermore, they could not "trick" an agent into participating and later say "well, its too late for you back out now." The initial raid and final confrontation on April 19, 1993 were well planned. Finally, you could not just have those who actually participated in the events as members of the cabal, but you would also have to include the dozens of analysts and supervisors that oversaw the agents and later evaluated the results. Any one of them could have revealed the entire plot by pointing out a statement or piece of evidence that did not comport with their findings (or orders).
So, the only conclusion that you can reasonably come to is that these several dozen agents (perhaps hundreds) from multiple agencies, many of whom met each other only during the course of the BD standoff, immediately joined w/o question a secret plot to commit mass murder.
Now, let's do the math here. First, social scientists acknowledge that a certain percentage of society is made up of sociopaths. And by sociopath I mean someone that is devoid of any sense of social responsibility, i.e., they care for no one but themselves and feel no compunction about sacrificing others to advance their own agenda. Second, a certain percentage of this group of sociopaths are motivated by more than just pure selfishness. They also are motivated by malevolence. It is important to understand the difference. The first group says "sure, I don't mind killing innocent people IF it somehow advances my own career/wealth/status AND it doessn't place me in an inordinate position of risk." The second group says "I want to do harm to others regardless of the consequences." Now, realize that a conspiracy involving mass murder like Waco HAS to be populated completely by conspirators who fall into the second group. Afterall, the agents had nothing personally to gain by doing this, and had much to lose if caught, including their career, their freedom, their financial well-being, etc. Anyone that was simply a sociopath but not also a mass murderer could easily see the potential risk involved and being a sociopath, would have no compunction about turning his fellow agents in.
So, what you have is a fairly large group of people, many of whom had never met, that all fall into the category of potential mass murderers.....by coincidence. In order for this to be true, you must believe one of two possibilities:
(1) that the federal govt. somehow is able to recruit only sociopaths into their ranks, and beyond that, primarily potential mass murderers. If that's what you believe, I've got news for you - there is no way this could happen. Statistically speaking, there is no way that all federal agents, or even a majority of them, could be sociopaths. The percentage in society that are in fact sociopaths, while certainly high enough to fuel a steady stream of crimes, is not nearly high enough such that they could find qualified applicants from this subset of society.
(2) that the govt. is somehow able to brainwash all federal agents into becoming potential mass murderers. If true, the Russians are amateurs compared to our own govt.
Again, statistically, it is not possible that you could have assembled a group of people capable of dong something like this in such a short period of time, or even at all. Finally, I have empirical evidence that this conspiracy cannot be true. If you look at some of the most horrible mass murder events in history, you will find that at least some of the participants later revealed their stories. IOW, there is always going to be at least a small number of folks that, by their own conscience, cannot live with what they have purposefully and intentionally done and feel a need to tell the world. AND, most of these events take place in remote areas during times of war where there is no freedom of the press. Waco took place in America in open view of the world. Why have we not seen at least one or two federal agents come forward and said, "hey, you know what, I just can't live with what I've done." The complete lack of silence by anyone that participated in any aspect of the raid or final confrontation, either as a direct participant or later as an analyst privy to the findings, proves that this conspriacy is nothing more than a figment of angry and imaginitive people.
Consider for a moment that in order for this mass murder conspriacy to work, literally dozens of federal agents would have to be part of the planning and would have to give their tacit approval, not only of the actual activities that led to the "murder", but also of the coverup. Their oath to secrecy would have to be so complete that they could not dare to reveal even a single secret to anybody outside their circle of conspirators. Now consider the fact that these agents came from multiple agencies and different locations. Consider also the fact that, even if there was an initial group of conspirators that planned the initial raid, that they would have had to add others in to their secret cabal and very quickly. Each of the men would have had to evaluate the plot laid before them, which essentially involved mass murder of innocent children and a massive coverup, and would have had to accept immediately. The conspirators could not take the chance that they would try to recruit someone who refused. Afterall, that individual could later blow the wistle on them all. Furthermore, they could not "trick" an agent into participating and later say "well, its too late for you back out now." The initial raid and final confrontation on April 19, 1993 were well planned. Finally, you could not just have those who actually participated in the events as members of the cabal, but you would also have to include the dozens of analysts and supervisors that oversaw the agents and later evaluated the results. Any one of them could have revealed the entire plot by pointing out a statement or piece of evidence that did not comport with their findings (or orders).
So, the only conclusion that you can reasonably come to is that these several dozen agents (perhaps hundreds) from multiple agencies, many of whom met each other only during the course of the BD standoff, immediately joined w/o question a secret plot to commit mass murder.
Now, let's do the math here. First, social scientists acknowledge that a certain percentage of society is made up of sociopaths. And by sociopath I mean someone that is devoid of any sense of social responsibility, i.e., they care for no one but themselves and feel no compunction about sacrificing others to advance their own agenda. Second, a certain percentage of this group of sociopaths are motivated by more than just pure selfishness. They also are motivated by malevolence. It is important to understand the difference. The first group says "sure, I don't mind killing innocent people IF it somehow advances my own career/wealth/status AND it doessn't place me in an inordinate position of risk." The second group says "I want to do harm to others regardless of the consequences." Now, realize that a conspiracy involving mass murder like Waco HAS to be populated completely by conspirators who fall into the second group. Afterall, the agents had nothing personally to gain by doing this, and had much to lose if caught, including their career, their freedom, their financial well-being, etc. Anyone that was simply a sociopath but not also a mass murderer could easily see the potential risk involved and being a sociopath, would have no compunction about turning his fellow agents in.
So, what you have is a fairly large group of people, many of whom had never met, that all fall into the category of potential mass murderers.....by coincidence. In order for this to be true, you must believe one of two possibilities:
(1) that the federal govt. somehow is able to recruit only sociopaths into their ranks, and beyond that, primarily potential mass murderers. If that's what you believe, I've got news for you - there is no way this could happen. Statistically speaking, there is no way that all federal agents, or even a majority of them, could be sociopaths. The percentage in society that are in fact sociopaths, while certainly high enough to fuel a steady stream of crimes, is not nearly high enough such that they could find qualified applicants from this subset of society.
(2) that the govt. is somehow able to brainwash all federal agents into becoming potential mass murderers. If true, the Russians are amateurs compared to our own govt.
Again, statistically, it is not possible that you could have assembled a group of people capable of dong something like this in such a short period of time, or even at all. Finally, I have empirical evidence that this conspiracy cannot be true. If you look at some of the most horrible mass murder events in history, you will find that at least some of the participants later revealed their stories. IOW, there is always going to be at least a small number of folks that, by their own conscience, cannot live with what they have purposefully and intentionally done and feel a need to tell the world. AND, most of these events take place in remote areas during times of war where there is no freedom of the press. Waco took place in America in open view of the world. Why have we not seen at least one or two federal agents come forward and said, "hey, you know what, I just can't live with what I've done." The complete lack of silence by anyone that participated in any aspect of the raid or final confrontation, either as a direct participant or later as an analyst privy to the findings, proves that this conspriacy is nothing more than a figment of angry and imaginitive people.
Waitone
Member
One does not need elaborate conspiracies to explain horrible events such as Waco. One need only have an abiding faith in human nature and its ability to screw up even the most mundane tasks. One does not need legions of sociopaths marching in lockstep doing the bidding of a cabal of conspirators. The events of Waco can easily be explained by a series of decisions by fallible human beings doing what human beings do in times of stress. Do I exonerate said humans for what happened? No way. The sad fact of the matter is events will get out of control. And humans being humans will make the wrong decision at the wrong time and bad things happen.
Waco went wrong for a lot of reasons. The mess was created by humans doing stoopid things like wanting good video for budgetary purposes. Then someone makes a bad decision #2 in response to decision #1. Somewhere down the line someone says bring in the tactical people because of bad decision #38. There ends up being a cascade of bad decisions and events spin out of control.
If there was any conspiracy it was in the decision to hide the bad decisions. That is why things like front doors disappear. That is why there are lies about gas canisters and existing non-existant sniper positions. Like any DC fiasco, the coverup is more damaging than the original screwup. Waco is no different.
The fact that it happen is not a suprise to me. The fact that it hasn't happened again in spite of other opportunities doen't surprise me either. It is clear the system (you define the term) has made adjustments to make sure another Waco does not occur. What really get me upset is the absence of negative consequences for those who made the series of bad decisions. Best I can see is they got promoted or retired or shuffled aside. There are no heads on pikes and that disturbs me.
Airline crashes are investigated out the ying-yang to determine the sequence of failures that eventuated in the crash. I would love to see the same kind of thing for a Waco. Problem is the system (again, you define the term) goes out of its way to protect itself from investigation and public disclosure yet it clearly has made adjustments in the way it deals with nuts with guns. Our federal government has a series of go-to people who are called in to bury responsibility. John Danforth is one such person. Is he one of the conspirators? No, he is merely a mortician. His job is to put a pretty face on a really ugly situation and get it buried as fast as possible. And he did his usual outstand job.
Waco went wrong for a lot of reasons. The mess was created by humans doing stoopid things like wanting good video for budgetary purposes. Then someone makes a bad decision #2 in response to decision #1. Somewhere down the line someone says bring in the tactical people because of bad decision #38. There ends up being a cascade of bad decisions and events spin out of control.
If there was any conspiracy it was in the decision to hide the bad decisions. That is why things like front doors disappear. That is why there are lies about gas canisters and existing non-existant sniper positions. Like any DC fiasco, the coverup is more damaging than the original screwup. Waco is no different.
The fact that it happen is not a suprise to me. The fact that it hasn't happened again in spite of other opportunities doen't surprise me either. It is clear the system (you define the term) has made adjustments to make sure another Waco does not occur. What really get me upset is the absence of negative consequences for those who made the series of bad decisions. Best I can see is they got promoted or retired or shuffled aside. There are no heads on pikes and that disturbs me.
Airline crashes are investigated out the ying-yang to determine the sequence of failures that eventuated in the crash. I would love to see the same kind of thing for a Waco. Problem is the system (again, you define the term) goes out of its way to protect itself from investigation and public disclosure yet it clearly has made adjustments in the way it deals with nuts with guns. Our federal government has a series of go-to people who are called in to bury responsibility. John Danforth is one such person. Is he one of the conspirators? No, he is merely a mortician. His job is to put a pretty face on a really ugly situation and get it buried as fast as possible. And he did his usual outstand job.
rock jock,
I'm personally not of the opinion that the bATF set out to slaughter babies. I think they started out simply trying to conduct an investigation. They decided there was a good chance they could justify budget increases if they took a heavy-handed approach to the situation.
They sent in an agent who came back with some good intel as to the mindset of the people. The assault planners knew that the Davidians believed that they would be attacked by evil government forces. They knew that dressing up ATF agents like commandos, arming them with rifles, subguns and flashbangs (which, amusingly enough, may be considered Weapons of Mass Destruction under US law - no matter what Chuckie Schumer might try to tell you) and storming the place like Normandy beach would appear at face value to be fulfilling Vernon's prophecy to a "T." They knew that local law enforcement had a relationship with the Davidians and had even investigated them previously and could have assisted with a peaceful investigation. They appear to have known that the Davidians knew they were coming (or so claims their agent on the inside). Knowing all this, they felt it would be best to launch a military style assault on the Davidian's complex in the middle of the day. These aren't just inadvisable tactics and minor mistakes that are easy to see in hindsight as DMF would have us believe. I'd call it negligence on a criminal level.
But neither the original clusterscrew assault nor the FBI's "Gas 'em till they give" approach are what really bothers me. Those were screwups, but screwups that could have been exposed and prevented in the future. No ... it was the manner in which the investigation was handled afterwards that throws me for a loop. Evidence disappears, the crime scene is bulldozed before it can be properly examined and the official story is found to contain faulty information at best. Care to bet on whether or not the evidence that disappeared would have cleared the government?
See, if they had screwed up as badly as they did, and had been forthcoming in their investigation I wouldn't have been nearly so bothered, but that's not what happened.
rock jock, it isn't that I think there was a huge conspiracy to slaughter Branch Davidians and destroy civil liberty in America. I do think that the government screwed up royally and then did their best to make it seem that they weren't responsible. That's where conspiracies come in. We're not talking about needing sociopaths, just a bunch of people not wanting to take responsibility for making major mistakes. You know - averages Joes.
Please note, I'm not defending the actions of the Davidians, but neither will I defend the actions of the government. Both sides really, really messed up. Period.
I'm personally not of the opinion that the bATF set out to slaughter babies. I think they started out simply trying to conduct an investigation. They decided there was a good chance they could justify budget increases if they took a heavy-handed approach to the situation.
They sent in an agent who came back with some good intel as to the mindset of the people. The assault planners knew that the Davidians believed that they would be attacked by evil government forces. They knew that dressing up ATF agents like commandos, arming them with rifles, subguns and flashbangs (which, amusingly enough, may be considered Weapons of Mass Destruction under US law - no matter what Chuckie Schumer might try to tell you) and storming the place like Normandy beach would appear at face value to be fulfilling Vernon's prophecy to a "T." They knew that local law enforcement had a relationship with the Davidians and had even investigated them previously and could have assisted with a peaceful investigation. They appear to have known that the Davidians knew they were coming (or so claims their agent on the inside). Knowing all this, they felt it would be best to launch a military style assault on the Davidian's complex in the middle of the day. These aren't just inadvisable tactics and minor mistakes that are easy to see in hindsight as DMF would have us believe. I'd call it negligence on a criminal level.
But neither the original clusterscrew assault nor the FBI's "Gas 'em till they give" approach are what really bothers me. Those were screwups, but screwups that could have been exposed and prevented in the future. No ... it was the manner in which the investigation was handled afterwards that throws me for a loop. Evidence disappears, the crime scene is bulldozed before it can be properly examined and the official story is found to contain faulty information at best. Care to bet on whether or not the evidence that disappeared would have cleared the government?
See, if they had screwed up as badly as they did, and had been forthcoming in their investigation I wouldn't have been nearly so bothered, but that's not what happened.
rock jock, it isn't that I think there was a huge conspiracy to slaughter Branch Davidians and destroy civil liberty in America. I do think that the government screwed up royally and then did their best to make it seem that they weren't responsible. That's where conspiracies come in. We're not talking about needing sociopaths, just a bunch of people not wanting to take responsibility for making major mistakes. You know - averages Joes.
Please note, I'm not defending the actions of the Davidians, but neither will I defend the actions of the government. Both sides really, really messed up. Period.
RaggedClaws
Member
That's what they want you to believe.
richyoung
Member
...they just slammed 3 M-60 based CEVs into a wooden structure to which they had CUT OFF ALL ELECTRICITY and other utilities, forcing the residents to use kerosine for illumination, as well as to try to improvise Molotov cocktails as their only anti-armor weapon, despite owning an "evil" .50 cal. They then pumped hundred of gallons of flammible mixture into that building, and fired pyrotechnic devices into it. On a windy day. And prevented the fire department from putting it out. ONE would think that since the BATF investigates arson, that someone present would be able to connec t the dots on this...
I have eyes - I've seen the FLIR footage. You'll have to try your "Jedi Mind Trick" on someone else.
Posse Comititus, anyone?
Not a sucessful one, at any rate...
There is LESS EVIDENCE, since the door is missing and the crime scene destroyrd, but not "no evidence" - "Reckless endangerment" and "manslaughter" ring any bells?
Koresh sold items at gunshows. One example of these were the "Complaint Department: Take a number" with a "#1" attached to the pin of an inert hand grenade.
As to the 47 "machine guns." If I recall what David Hardy (atty for the Davidians) told me, there were no such weapons admitted into evidence. Some were attempted to be but they were found to have fresh holes drilled into them (after the heat of the fire) where conversion kit parts would go.
Rick
LiquidTension
Member
I saw RoE a while back and it comes on digital cable every now and then. After watching Chuckie Schumer's behavior in the hearings, how can there be any doubt that the .gov screwed up? No rational person acts as he did, but then his voting record doesn't exactly make one think that he's a rational guy.
I think it's funny how the building was burned down and then bulldozed to the ground, and yet somehow a pristine AK variant made it out of the rubble and into someone's hands for the senate hearings. That thing looked better than my NIB SAR did when I got it.
As far as the Davidians not having any right to shoot at the JBTs, what if the JBTs fired first? Do they not have a right to defend themselves from slaughter? I don't know who fired first, but at least I entertain the idea that either side could have done it instead of buying into only the .gov's side of the story.
I think it's funny how the building was burned down and then bulldozed to the ground, and yet somehow a pristine AK variant made it out of the rubble and into someone's hands for the senate hearings. That thing looked better than my NIB SAR did when I got it.
As far as the Davidians not having any right to shoot at the JBTs, what if the JBTs fired first? Do they not have a right to defend themselves from slaughter? I don't know who fired first, but at least I entertain the idea that either side could have done it instead of buying into only the .gov's side of the story.
As to whether ATF or Branch Davidians fired first, I do not know. But I do know that Han Solo fired first.
Anyway, I have tired of this thread so I am done. My only point has been we don't know whether the small facts are true or not. And we CAN'T know. I'm not going to spend the rest of my life trying to prove or disprove what really happened, down there or here on THR. But in the big general overall picture we can come to some basic conclusions:
1. Whether Koresh was the Satan incarnate the media made him out to be, we don't know. But he certainly wasn't mainstream. Then again I doubt I am considered mainstream either. Although maybe forty years ago people wouldn't give me a second thought. Or Koresh for that matter.
2. All but a few Davidians are dead, only four federal agents are dead.
3. The media, the federal system, Chuck Schumer, all lied to the American people. That has been proven. In fact by their own admission. As to the extent they have lied, we'll never know.
4. Timothy McVeigh, who was photographed with government agents, down there in Waco, uses this incident as an excuse for why he blew up the Murrah building.
5. Since these two events the American people now have an instinctive distrust of their government.
Anyway, I have tired of this thread so I am done. My only point has been we don't know whether the small facts are true or not. And we CAN'T know. I'm not going to spend the rest of my life trying to prove or disprove what really happened, down there or here on THR. But in the big general overall picture we can come to some basic conclusions:
1. Whether Koresh was the Satan incarnate the media made him out to be, we don't know. But he certainly wasn't mainstream. Then again I doubt I am considered mainstream either. Although maybe forty years ago people wouldn't give me a second thought. Or Koresh for that matter.
2. All but a few Davidians are dead, only four federal agents are dead.
3. The media, the federal system, Chuck Schumer, all lied to the American people. That has been proven. In fact by their own admission. As to the extent they have lied, we'll never know.
4. Timothy McVeigh, who was photographed with government agents, down there in Waco, uses this incident as an excuse for why he blew up the Murrah building.
5. Since these two events the American people now have an instinctive distrust of their government.
bamawrx
Member
Anybody else wish to see the video PM me. I have it back from first THR member and ready to send to next. There are a couple people in line. So let me know.
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