Walking The High Road

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If you would just agree with me, well there would be fewer deleted threads. Can I get an amen?:D But if it's a fact that most of the Earth's population fears and hates us, isn't it at least a possiblity that we Americans are wrong in deed if not in thought?
 
Telewinz said: If you would just agree with me, well there would be fewer deleted threads. Can I get an amen? But if it's a fact that most of the Earth's population fears and hates us, isn't it at least a possiblity that we Americans are wrong in deed if not in thought?

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Most of the world hates us?

You could be right after all its human nature to hate people more successful than you.

I mean that is obvious otherwise how else could you explain the National organization of Women or the NAACP.
 
The Precipice

This thread started out as a discussion of the merits and qualities of THR, and how troubling things have become. Now, it's back to Islam=Bad! :banghead:

What part of "leave it be" do you not get? It's like trying to discuss a complex subject with Michael Moore.

At the risk of being flamed, most of the accusations of fanaticism and abuse that so many here say is inherent to Islam can be leveled at other religions as well. Like Christianity. Or The Roman Catholic Church. Even my own Judaism has some ultra-intolerant Chasidics (much to my shame). Very few here can claim a past or present of "holier than thou".

At many times, in many places, the cry of "kill them all" has arisen. And it has never worked. The Roman Catholic Church tried to rid the world of the "Christkillers". The Hutus tried to kill Tutsis. Stalin and Pol Pot tried to kill everyone with an ounce of will. All of these "cleansings" failed.

If you think that Islam is a threat to the West, it is a bigger threat to itself. Islam is at a crossroads, one that Christianity has already faced: What is a Modern Moslem? What is the Future of Islam? Most of the Moslems I know are in real anguish about what is going on, not because it is a new phenomenon, but because a real philosophical conundrum dating back three centuries is finally boiling over. Does G-d allow a person of faith to join the larger world community, and at what sacrifice? Judaism in the 19th century wrestled with this, and two movements formed-the Chasidic, a mystical movement as radical and strange as Zen or Sufism, and Reform Judaism, which said that some old ways had to go, and that the Jewish people had to become a modern people. Sadly but perhaps not surprisingly, Chasidism went from radical to reactionary, and is as intolerant today as some of the Taliban. Reform Judaism was revised and debated. Perhaps what sets us apart is that we Jews save our most vicious attacks for ourselves :( .

There is a reason that fanatics cannot be reasoned with. Fanatics, at the core, are afraid. Fanatics cannot abide a different viewpoint, because their own faith is so fragile that a new idea might sweep it away.

America, too, is at a crossroads. Are we to be the Great shining light of hope to the world, or will we be Pax Americana, the hegemonic Empire? I will admit, to my friends at THR, that I too am afraid. I am afraid because I know right from wrong, and I have no idea what this country should do next. I am afraid of 2005. I am afraid of John Kerry no more than I am afraid of George Bush. I am afraid that the whole system will break down, and the world will know fire and chaos and great suffering in my lifetime. I am afraid, even though I know I was born, now, in this time, to fight for goodness and light.

If, with a single thought, every Muslim in the world would die, it wouldn't solve anything. We would just focus on the next threat. And Muslims know that if every Christian and Jew were eliminated overnight that barely a breath would be taken before Shiite turned on Sunni, on down the line, until the last Wahabi faced the last Talibani. The Jews and the Gypsies were only the first in line to Hitler; the Russians, the Poles, the Orientals, the Negroids-all had a place in the Great Plan. There is never an end, once you start down that road.

We here at THR are supposed to be the vigilant ones. Our right to firearms is a G-d given Right to defend ourselves, to resist oppression. Not to oppress. Someone once said (Frank Zappa I think) that real freedom means putting up with things that really piss you off, because others must do the same for you. Al-Qaida must be brought to justice for what has been done, but not at the expense of our very souls.

Genocide is off the table at THR, because THR is about preserving freedom for all, even the people who hate us. If your hatred of others is so great that you cannot contain yourself, go to a neighborhood tavern and speak your mind-you'll have plenty of supporters. Go to another forum and flame away. Maybe you'll feel better. I am not saying there is no room here to dissent or argue; if that day were to ever come to THR, I too would go elsewhere. But please, the fight for freedom is hard enough without having to take on our own. Help solve the problems we face, or go away.


With love and respect,
 
I am a TFL refugee. When TFL closed down I came here the second this forum opened. WHile there are subtle differences between this forum and TFL they are not as many as would be expected. One of the thing's I've noticed is that no one has bothered to check old TFL archives to see if the level of moderation is the same. The only forum that I've seen more then a few borderline posts is legal and political, and even then there are not as many as could be expected. I do disagree, sometimes strongly, at what some of the posts have in content, but if I bother to reply it is always with proper language(thanks to Art's Gramma for helping me clean up my language :eek: ). I have made a post or two that was borderline, but they were deleted or modified by ME and not the moderators. I browse this forum and Glocktalk, used to browse CZForum 1911 and ar15.com, but this is where I feel my home is.
 
Re "exisions", which I guess is similar to "excisions" as in deleting: My Grammaw has been known to change or delete bad words. More rarely, some egregious personal attacks are deleted. Since I don't consider personal attacks to be deathless prose worthy of being on permanent view, I see no reason for them to remain as examples which support the notion that gunowners are Neanderthal knuckle-draggers.

I'll edit "inflammatory prose", which I've labelled "incitement to riot" since it leads to personal insults and flaming--which are against the rules agreed to by all members.

I've been moderating since sometime back in 1999, first at TFL and then here at THR. I know of no deletions of anything that could reasonably be considered either rational discourse or useful information.

I'm unconcerned about any particular subject matter, or which side somebody chooses in an argument. My main concern is that the discussion remain civil, without language offensive to my Grammaw and without personal attacks.

I don't see any of the above as "censorship" or "harsh" or "arbitrary" or even some sort of "It's Oleg's house and he's the boss" sort of stuff. It's just a matter of common courtesy and politeness among us all. And that's all I ask of anybody.

But it's been a good day, today. I played tourguide to Ojinaga and enjoyed the broiled shrimp at the "Mexican Mafia Motel" restaurant. Full tummy, dry didies; must be time for a nap. :D

Nighty-bye,

Art
 
Dear friend,

On Christmas Eve 2002, The High Road forum opened. As it joins the other fine forums on the Internet, I'd like to explain the vision behind it. You may find the sources of inspiration for this forum very familiar.

The High Road was established by a group of enthusiasts from The Firing Line (1998-2002), which was in its day the premier firearms forum on the Internet. We all benefited greatly from the accumulated wisdom and knowledge on that forum, which is still available in archived form. With this new forum, we hope to continue and improve upon the very high standards set there. The last four years brought us together. Now that we have gathered in strength, let's consider the future.

"Today, we carve our own omens" King Leonidas, at Thermopylae

This forum is dedicated to the advancement of our civil rights, including the essential right to keep and bear arms. While the absence of personal arms is a sure road to subjugation, merely having guns won't miraculously guarantee our civil rights. With that in mind, we ought to coordinate pro-RKBA activism with efforts to reduce the scope and the intensity of government control over our lives in general.

"An armed society is a polite society." R.A.Heinlein

I'd like The High Road to be a living proof of that assertion. A diverse crowd, we will never agree on all particulars, but we must agree on the guiding principle of our interactions on this forum: live and let live. Just as warriors on a mission, we cannot afford a squabble in our midst. When disagreeing the the goals or methods of your fellow forum members, please debate their ideas and not their mental competency or the legitimacy of their birth. Certain topics, such as religion and voting strategies, are very likely to engage strong emotions on all sides. Tread lightly on the sensibilities of other forum members, and be forgiving if something comes off as offensive to you. Chances are, no one was out to offend you personally -- and even if they were, rise above petty squabbling.

"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." J.R.R.Tolkien

Our family members and friends ought to be our allies. Bring new folks, even those opposed to our goals but capable of reasoning, to this forum. The erudite and respectful discussions ought to impress them favorably. That is the other reason for requesting conduct becoming a polite society -- for the benfit of those who lurk at the edges of our campfire, looking in and wondering who we are.

"Take The High Road!" R.Lucibella

Make us proud of providing the venue for your contact with the other like-minded people. As you enjoy the forum, please remember all those who made it possible. This site exists through the immediate support of its members, and -- in a broader sense -- through the efforts of all those who fought for liberty in the past.

Oleg Volk, on behalf of The High Road staff.



The above was written by Oleg when this website opened. It contains sage advice, and unfortunately, a spot-on prophecy. I'm glad I'm not Oleg this weeekend, trying to figure out what to do. Why is he in this position? He's already stated what WE need to do. How many times need he tell us? Was it Cassius who told Caesar the fault lies not in our stars, but in ourselves?
 
I don't want to hijack this thread but do want to answer a misconception.

But if it's a fact that most of the Earth's population fears and hates us, isn't it at least a possiblity that we Americans are wrong in deed if not in thought?
What about the possibility that this isn't a fact? There has been a lot of talk here and on the news about the french and various other european countries. In the experiance of more than one (actually several) relatives of the Meeks who have spent a whole lot of time in Europe this year there just isn't any anti-american sentiment evident on the streets. Sure you see demonstrations on CNN, but guess what, it is common knowledge among the european college community that news networks regularly recruit and pay good money for kids to stage demonstrations.
 
telewinz, M&M: I was stationed in Paris in 1956/1957. In my wanderings, I met a fair number of active Communists. One obvious problem in discourse was their lack of understanding of our views of what the world should be. For the general run of French and other Europeans I met, there was a separation between the opinion about our government's actions and the opinion about the U.S. as a whole.

In recent visits to Germany, my take is that there is a lack of understanding about why we're doing our War on Terror in the manner we've used. That's no different from many folks' opinions or understandings here in the U.S. Since there will always be those who do indeed not like us or who hate us, there will always be some form of protest. Those who recall the behaviors of the 1960s/1970s about Vietnam can see the similarities about the "mild" being incited by the "rabid".

A view of mine is that the media are in business to sell advertising and thus will always accentuate excitement to accomplish that goal. A protest or a noisy riot is more exciting than pointing out that 75% don't give a (Bleep). This tends to skew perceptions of reality away from reality.

Art
 
Moderators or censors??

Personally, I think it is a joke to call this site the "High Road". If one were to post thoughts unacceptable to the moderators, then one's posting priveleges would be revoked.

While this site is private property and it is within the power of the owners to evict those that they choose, it is hardly the high road that they travel, but rather the narrow road of their narrow thinking that previls here. Can they say that they never cancelled posting priveleges because they did not agree with the content of the post?

Like so much of life, one sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest, so lets call a spade a spade and not pretend that this site is anything other that what is is, i.e. a censored site.
 
Antibudda,

Your post should get floated as well as sodbuster's. Very, very relevant and finely written . Bravo. Thank you for that reminder.

Yours Respectfully,
Brace
 
Actually folks this is one of the most civil places I have been on the web. We all like firearms and that is what brings us here. Let us not be divided and distracted from what brought us all here in the first place.
 
I still can't get over the tone of surprise and shock from a few. THR has never pretended to be anything but a moderated site. The whole point of TFL, continued in THR, was and is to have a site where no matter what, you post with decency and courtesy, avoiding all personal attacks, flaming, etc., so that the site can fulfill its one and only purpose for existence--to promote the responsible ownership and use of firearms.

There are only four types of content that will result in having a post locked:

1. Racism/bigotry. Duh. If you've got a problem with censoring bigots and racists, you don't belong at THR. If you are a bigot or a racist, keep it to yourself. If you post it, you'll be warned--maybe--and then you'll be gone.
THR would never presume to tell a racist or a bigot he doesn't have the right to speak--but he can't use our forum to do it.

2. Religious Debate. This includes all the "My God Is Bigger Than Your God, You Poor Ignorant Heathen Sod" threads. It also includes the "How Does Derek Explain That This Unsourced Website Says His Religion Demands That He Murder Me?" threads. These are not allowed because, quite frankly, neither TFL nor THR has ever found that the membership has been able to discuss them without degenerating into flamefests.

3. Abortion threads. See Religious Debate.

4. Discussion of the morality or immorality of homosexuality. See Abortion threads.


THR has staff members with very strong opinions on all these issues, but we choose not to be a forum for their discussion because they don't fit our mission in life. If you want to discuss why Muslim is bad and Arabs are inferior, there's always Stormfront or HardCoreTalk. If you want to talk about abortion, homosexuality, or just why Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians or Greens are all pathetic losers, there's always FreeRepublic or Democratic Underground. The THR staff doesn't take it personally if people prefer these other venues. There's nothing wrong with that. But THR is not going to emulate such places just to be popular. We are the premiere FIREARM discussion board, and that's what we want to be.
 
Having come here from another website that allows all sorts of non-firearms discussion, I originally thought THR was rather narrow in its thinking when it tried to keep all legal/political threads & posts firearms-related, and when mods actually did work to keep things civil.

Now, I have seen the other website descend into personal attacks. There are several posters who could post "water is wet" or "the sky is blue" and would IMMEDIATELY get pounced upon for being a liar and anti-semite. I don't hang out there anymore.

THR is private property. You wanna talk about things that are specifically not on the menu here, go open a Starbucks or form your own website. I walk this ground here so long as I abide by Oleg's rules, enforced by the mods, and I respect that.
 
there's always Stormfront or HardCoreTalk

You guys have heard of stormfront too then? I was directed to it several months ago by an acquaintance who holds political views I most certainly do not. I highly recommend a visit to anyone who thinks this place is either badly moderated or over-moderated or that L&P can be a flame fest.

THR is something else, a glimmer of hope for the internet. Excuse my gushing.
 
Something to think about...

One of the quickest ways to get everybody on this forum all bunched up is to promote the idea that "guns are intrinsically evil and should be banned so that no one can misuse one to harm someone else".

Such an utterance would precipitate an immediate firestorm of "blame the criminal, not the tool he uses!" And the responses would be correct.

Blame the criminal, not the tool he uses.

Guns, knives, baseball bats, cars, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Wicca. All of these are tools. Guns are tools we shoot with, knives are tools we cut with, baseball bats are tools we play a game with[0], cars are tools we use to get from place to place and carry stuff in. Religions are tools, too. They're the frameworks with which we relate to the world and our own spirituality. Sin is something that falls outside of acceptable behavior, and the religion of the believer is the tool her (or she) uses to make the judgement of what is acceptable and what is not.

So. If we revisit the talking point from my first sentence, but talk about other tools instead of guns:
- Islam is intrinsically evil and should be exterminated so that no one can misinterpret it and harm someone else!
- Christianity is intrinsically evil and should be exterminated so that no one can misinterpret it and harm someone else!
- Buddhism is intrinsically evil and should be exterminated so that no one can misinterpret it and harm someone else!

The first of these sounds an awful lot like what some people have been saying. The second might have been applicable during the Inquisition. And who has ever met a militant buddhist?

So, on the one hand, it's bad to blame a tool (a gun) for the action of the criminal who wields it. But on the other hand, some people seem to feel that it's all right to blame a tool (religion) for the action of the terrorist who uses it to justify their heinous acts. That's what we call hypocrisy.

The terrorists who flew the planes into the Towers and the Pentagon were muslim. But would the people in the towers be any less dead, if the terrorists had been Catholics, or Jews, or Atheists? Or if they'd been just plain-old psychopaths with no philosophical motivation at all, who were simply living out an insane fantasy? Ok, yes, a single psycho would not have been able to coordinate all four planes, but one plane would still have taken down one tower, and that would have been horrible enough.

We gritch and complain about "Hate Crime" legislation, because it makes thoughts themselves illegal. Yet them we turn around and blame a religion for the acts some of its followers commit.

I've seen horrible things done by people who said they were Muslims. I've seen some pretty awful things done by people who said they were Christians, and people who said they were Atheists, too. The acts themselves were no more or less horrible because of the belief system of the perpetrator. How many Christians would wish for their religion and all of its adherents to be held responsible for a terrorist act such as an abortion clinic bombing? How many Jews feared reprisals against them when "The Passion of the Christ" was released, because people might blame modern Jews for what was done those many years ago?

If you do not wish to be associated with the worst things that have been done in the name of your personal religion, do not be quick to condemn all of the believers of a different religion, based upon the depraved acts of a few of its followers.

This post is not intended as an attack on any religion or system of belief. It's intended to remind people that everyone has a right to believe as they choose, unmolested, and that it is individuals who are responsible for criminal acts, not the tools they used.

-BP, who was once a hypocritical follower of a particular faith, but grew up.

[0] Or in the case of a particularly enthusiastic E3 I knew in Saudi, "tools we hit scorpions with" :D
 
I come here JUST for the "Legal and Political" section.
Me too.

Can I tell you why I enjoy this forum so much?

There are many people who love to own and shoot guns. But I have noticed there are two “camps†in the gun culture:

1. Guns = Hobby, otherwise known as the “gun hobbyist†crowd.
2. Guns = Liberty’s Teeth, otherwise known as the “freedom fighting†crowd.

Most firearms-related boards cater to the former. An obvious example is www.ar15.com. To these people, guns are end, not a means.

I am not a gun hobbyist. To me, guns are liberty’s teeth. To me, guns are a means, not an end. Unlike many other boards, www.thehighroad.org appears to have quite a few members who are articulate, intelligent, and are wiling to fight for their freedoms.
 
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!

I just really enjoy all the intellectual masturbation here...

I don't really have an agenda beyond that, it's just very stimulating.

Zeke
 
Aw quit using the buzzwords. Moderation isn't a synonym for censorship. It's along the lines of 'you can't legislate morality', moderators do an admirable job keeping the peace and setting guidelines for acceptable manners. There wouldn't even be a need for moderation if everyone had manners within their speech patterns.

Was tyson's rights violated by the ref who cried foul on him for biting holeyfields ear off? Certainly not. Tyson went too far. It was Tyson's lack of manners that got him chided. Same deal with moderation. If we had enough manners to moderate ourselves in how we word things then the mods would have an easier time of it. Suggest looking within ourselves to solve the problem.

If you want to hang out with a particular group of people and get in on the discussion, understand where you're at & who you're with and act appropriately. Trash talk's acceptable in the bar, leave it there. This is not the bar, what's so hard about that? If grammaw says watch your mouth sonny, don't jump down her throat & say don't censor ME grammaw...it's lacking in class & respect.

If this is NOT the High road, then it's not the mods fault! It's the posters themselves that make it what it is. Whatever happened to an armed society is a polite society? Some people need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves instead of pointing fingers.

Edward429451 (doorman at the Mensa club. Not a member but bright enough to pick up on the background noise.)

P.S. when you stop being better, you stop being good.
 
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