Wall penetration v Stopping power.
- Thread starter Lonestar
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Also, see http://www.tacticalworks.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html for actual performance of birdshot at close range. This guy's gelatin calibrates way deep. The optimal calibration is 8.5 cm penetration at 590 fps. The proper way to compensate for bad calibration is too complex to do by hand, but as a general rule, subtract 25% from his penetration numbers (multiply by 0.75).
So for instance, #4 heavy dove birdshot penetrated about 6.5" in the test. That's a bit under 5" corrected. BB birdshot penetrated 11", so that's around 8 1/4" corrected.
Actualy I remember reading about a round that did just this on one of the test ranges. They could shoot a target far across a field with ammo that allowed for short term penetration yet wouldn't break normal glass as the backstop a few feet behind the target. Of course it is probably designed with metals banned in handguns as armor piercing based on % of material, meaning likely it would only be legal in long arms.
In fact I imagine the old trick of birdshot held together with some sort of weak binder like wax etc would do significant damage far exceeding a birdshot round, yet would be deformed too much by the energy of impacting with a wall at high speeds to be able to go through many more layers. essentialy a cheap frangible round. A round made of glass would likely perform similar, and would be very difficult for hospital personal to locate with xrays, meaning perp would be very difficult to save in a timely manner. The trick would be a round that is very brittle and yet is hard and capable of penetratign soft targets well. Glasser safety slugs work on this principle. Any brittle (not malleable like metal) powdered material held together by a binder should do the trick. Keep in mind though that this ammo is limited to adequate penetration of one layer of flesh or material that your life relies on. Meaning just about anything hard and rigid like chains or buttons or metal studs or bone etc would shatter the round. So penetration through suspects arm into thier body is unlikely, and headshots probably less reliable than body shots.
Another option would be a round intentionaly designed with an overzied tail..like an arrow with large fins that limited or stopped penetration once it penetrated to that point, slowing the velocity very quicky as it penetrated.
A further option and easier to mass produce would be a 2 sided hollowpoint round (with a hollowpoint in both the front and rear) with multiple ridges facing both directions. This of course would not be very aerodynamic and thus lose velocity and accuracy at distance quickly, but would be plenty accurate at close range and would do even more damage as all the ridges would grab flesh as they passed through as well as cause the round to likely tumble creating a wider wound channel. These same ridges and tumbling however would limit penetration of walls to far fewer layers proportional to its mass and velocity.
In fact I imagine the old trick of birdshot held together with some sort of weak binder like wax etc would do significant damage far exceeding a birdshot round, yet would be deformed too much by the energy of impacting with a wall at high speeds to be able to go through many more layers. essentialy a cheap frangible round. A round made of glass would likely perform similar, and would be very difficult for hospital personal to locate with xrays, meaning perp would be very difficult to save in a timely manner. The trick would be a round that is very brittle and yet is hard and capable of penetratign soft targets well. Glasser safety slugs work on this principle. Any brittle (not malleable like metal) powdered material held together by a binder should do the trick. Keep in mind though that this ammo is limited to adequate penetration of one layer of flesh or material that your life relies on. Meaning just about anything hard and rigid like chains or buttons or metal studs or bone etc would shatter the round. So penetration through suspects arm into thier body is unlikely, and headshots probably less reliable than body shots.
Another option would be a round intentionaly designed with an overzied tail..like an arrow with large fins that limited or stopped penetration once it penetrated to that point, slowing the velocity very quicky as it penetrated.
A further option and easier to mass produce would be a 2 sided hollowpoint round (with a hollowpoint in both the front and rear) with multiple ridges facing both directions. This of course would not be very aerodynamic and thus lose velocity and accuracy at distance quickly, but would be plenty accurate at close range and would do even more damage as all the ridges would grab flesh as they passed through as well as cause the round to likely tumble creating a wider wound channel. These same ridges and tumbling however would limit penetration of walls to far fewer layers proportional to its mass and velocity.
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tegemu
Member
I chose #4 Buckshot from a Remington 870 for just this reason.
I thought I'd read that certain 223 rounds can break up on hard targets. And, I have seen states showing that the 5.7x28 round usually doesn't over penetrate hard targets (I'm not talking about the elusive armor piercing round, but the other 2 rounds).
Someone on another board showed some tests of the 5.7 where the shot a cinderblock, and it only went though the front, and did not exit out the back. So, if you are in a brick home, your outside brick wall should keep the round from exiting your home.
Won't help ya if your concern is the round going into the next room, though...
Someone on another board showed some tests of the 5.7 where the shot a cinderblock, and it only went though the front, and did not exit out the back. So, if you are in a brick home, your outside brick wall should keep the round from exiting your home.
Won't help ya if your concern is the round going into the next room, though...
Shipwreck www.theboxotruth.com got into bricks and ciderblock and bullets. Almost everthing except heavy rifle rounds will be contained in a brick home.
So my question is this, for home defense which is better Glaser rounds or some sort of shotgun round?
So my question is this, for home defense which is better Glaser rounds or some sort of shotgun round?
Baba Louie
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Pea gravel poured in the cavity between studs with a layer of 1/2" OSB (particle board) beneath the sheetrock will certainly slow down most projectiles such as small bird shot... but it does have some weight to it and makes remodeling later kind of messy.
Trade offs.
Trade offs.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
There is a lot of good information here in THR's archives on these subjects. There is even a nice thread by JE223 on Glaser Silver in the Handguns General forum right now complete with drywall barrier and ballistic gel. We have x-rays of people shot with Glaser, multiple accounts of people surviving birdshot at distances under 5yds, and all kinds of discussion n this topic.
It all boils down to this - if it stops in drywall, you probably don't want to shoot people with it. If it will stop a person reliably, it will zip right through drywall. The best way to prevent overpenetration is not to miss in the first place.
It all boils down to this - if it stops in drywall, you probably don't want to shoot people with it. If it will stop a person reliably, it will zip right through drywall. The best way to prevent overpenetration is not to miss in the first place.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
"Honey I went to hang a picture and when I hammered a nail into the wall gravel started pouring out and split the drywall to the floor!"
I agree with Bartholomew. A bullet that would vaporize a person but bounce off drywall doesn't exist yet, and if it ever does, you won't be allowed to have it :banghead:
Kill the Turkeys!
So, we want to kill all turkeys and guinea hens on this side of the wall, but not hurt they guy out for a smoke on the other side of the drywall?
I say use .38 Special Glaser Safety Slugs... the guy wolfing down a Marlboro on the loading dock might get hurt, but everyone knows smoking is bad for your health, and those turkeys would be toast. That's what's really important, killing the turkeys. Bastards.
So, we want to kill all turkeys and guinea hens on this side of the wall, but not hurt they guy out for a smoke on the other side of the drywall?
I say use .38 Special Glaser Safety Slugs... the guy wolfing down a Marlboro on the loading dock might get hurt, but everyone knows smoking is bad for your health, and those turkeys would be toast. That's what's really important, killing the turkeys. Bastards.
What are you people talking about? The nuclear disruptive effect of a standard Type II hand phaser on any setting below heavy stun won't damage a standard bulkhead, nor cause more than cosmetic damage to standard planetside construction. If you're getting wall penetration you either have it set on disintergrate, or are having a serious power regulation issue.
I think others have said it, but pea gravel is a little too heavy. A bag at home depot that a little larger then a pillow weighs 50lb and cost almost $5, nice try though. A cheaper and lighter way would be just to put 1" plywood or better yet concrete backerboard (used for tile) behind the sheetrock. It will not help with rifle round, but I'm thinking it will either stop or seriously decrease the velocity of a pistol round.
Phazers???? How about a phase plasma rifle with a 40Watt range.
Phazers???? How about a phase plasma rifle with a 40Watt range.
Bullets and Sheetrock
Back to the OP question: A police officer has recommended to me #8 birdshot in a 12 guage. He states their studies show it has the impact of a 38 cal bullet, but will not penetrate the sheetrock.
I have #6 in my shotgun at home.
Many on these forums argue against birdshot, discussing depth of penetration issues and other points. I will trust a very good authority on the subject, an emergency room doctor.
On an aviation forum of all things, we were dicussing firearms and calibers related to self-defense. The doctor entered the discussion and advised of his experience in the ER. Anything below a 38 often required minimal treatment. 40 caliber and above - in his opinion - it was hard to save them if hit in a vital area. ( I carry 9mm BTW). The most difficult to save? A shotgun wound. The shot penetrates so many organs and causes bleeding from so many internal points that it is very difficult to save them - they have the lowest rate of success with shotgun wounds.
So, a shotgun with birdshot is a very effective home defense weapon and will not penetrate the wall and kill the neighbor.
Back to the OP question: A police officer has recommended to me #8 birdshot in a 12 guage. He states their studies show it has the impact of a 38 cal bullet, but will not penetrate the sheetrock.
I have #6 in my shotgun at home.
Many on these forums argue against birdshot, discussing depth of penetration issues and other points. I will trust a very good authority on the subject, an emergency room doctor.
On an aviation forum of all things, we were dicussing firearms and calibers related to self-defense. The doctor entered the discussion and advised of his experience in the ER. Anything below a 38 often required minimal treatment. 40 caliber and above - in his opinion - it was hard to save them if hit in a vital area. ( I carry 9mm BTW). The most difficult to save? A shotgun wound. The shot penetrates so many organs and causes bleeding from so many internal points that it is very difficult to save them - they have the lowest rate of success with shotgun wounds.
So, a shotgun with birdshot is a very effective home defense weapon and will not penetrate the wall and kill the neighbor.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
High energy, low momentum is a combination that can, with a fragile enough bullet, be stopped within a limited number of walls (probably not the first wall, though).
A lot of police agencies used .223 40-grain JHP's at 3600-3800 fps (Federal Blitz) as an indoor round for a long time. No, it doesn't penetrate nearly as well in gelatin as heavier loads, but it delivers >1200 ft-lb of energy, and is fragile enough to break up on drywall.
The Box o'Truth tests mostly used .223 FMJ, IIRC. I'd like to see them test some 40-gr JHP or VMAX loads from a 16" barrel against wall mockups with realistic standoff distances between successive walls.
The downside of the light .223 JHP's is that you don't get much penetration in gelatin, either. But 3600-3800 FPS plus total fragmentation is definitely a high enough velocity for cavitation/overpressure effects to come into play, so if you aren't of the Fackler school, you may consider a lightweight .223 JHP a decent compromise.
There was an article by Roberts in Police Marksman some years ago on .223 loads, and while he did not test the light JHP's (those were excluded from the test a priori, much to my disappointment), he did find that various 55- to 69-grain .223 loads had less wounding potential after exiting drywall than 9mm, as I recall. I'll have to dig that article up.
A lot of police agencies used .223 40-grain JHP's at 3600-3800 fps (Federal Blitz) as an indoor round for a long time. No, it doesn't penetrate nearly as well in gelatin as heavier loads, but it delivers >1200 ft-lb of energy, and is fragile enough to break up on drywall.
The Box o'Truth tests mostly used .223 FMJ, IIRC. I'd like to see them test some 40-gr JHP or VMAX loads from a 16" barrel against wall mockups with realistic standoff distances between successive walls.
The downside of the light .223 JHP's is that you don't get much penetration in gelatin, either. But 3600-3800 FPS plus total fragmentation is definitely a high enough velocity for cavitation/overpressure effects to come into play, so if you aren't of the Fackler school, you may consider a lightweight .223 JHP a decent compromise.
There was an article by Roberts in Police Marksman some years ago on .223 loads, and while he did not test the light JHP's (those were excluded from the test a priori, much to my disappointment), he did find that various 55- to 69-grain .223 loads had less wounding potential after exiting drywall than 9mm, as I recall. I'll have to dig that article up.
Birdshot
I suggested bird shot in a shotgun and was suprised by all the negative comments my suggestion received. Is birdshot the ultimate HD round? NO. Is birdshot what I have loaded in my HD 12 gauge? NO.
But given the original question I thought it was a reasonable COMPROMISE between over penetration and stopping power. I still do.
What size house and rooms do you nay-sayers have? If your rooms are the size of football fields, than your'e right. A shotgun loaded with birdshot is not adequate for home defense.
As for me, I live in a regular house with "normal" size rooms. While I would not personally choose to load my HD shotgun with birdshot, I WOULD NOT FEEL UNDER-GUNNED if I had to confront a BG armed "only" with a shotgun and birdshot.
And while we've all heard stories about the BG who survived a direct hit to center mass from a tactical nuke, let's get real. I'll take a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot any day over a handgun for close quarter/home defense purposes. But that's just me.
I suggested bird shot in a shotgun and was suprised by all the negative comments my suggestion received. Is birdshot the ultimate HD round? NO. Is birdshot what I have loaded in my HD 12 gauge? NO.
But given the original question I thought it was a reasonable COMPROMISE between over penetration and stopping power. I still do.
What size house and rooms do you nay-sayers have? If your rooms are the size of football fields, than your'e right. A shotgun loaded with birdshot is not adequate for home defense.
As for me, I live in a regular house with "normal" size rooms. While I would not personally choose to load my HD shotgun with birdshot, I WOULD NOT FEEL UNDER-GUNNED if I had to confront a BG armed "only" with a shotgun and birdshot.
And while we've all heard stories about the BG who survived a direct hit to center mass from a tactical nuke, let's get real. I'll take a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot any day over a handgun for close quarter/home defense purposes. But that's just me.
Cosmoline
Member
Filling your walls with pea gravel?? It would rip the walls apart. Folks, if it comes down to shooting in self defense, penetrating a wall will be the least of your concerns. If you get fixated on all the permutations, you'll end up duck taping trauma plates to your back.
I'm not really worried about killing, I'm just looking at stopping a BG. If they made a round that would instantly knock a BG out cold for two hours (plenty of time for the guy to wake up in a jail cell), I would buy it. I also disagree with the birdshot naysayers. I think a heavy Birdshot is the perfect first round in a HD shotgun. People get killing and stopping confused. Sure there is a higher possibility that a birdshot round will not kill, but at close range you can kill with birdshot, and nothing stops a fight quicker the birdshot tearing a 1" deep chunk of your face off.
Call me crazy but the more I look at the "Extreme Shock" Air Freedom rounds test on the box o' truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm) the round actually faired a lot better then the glaser round. It only penetrated 4 layers of sheetrock vs 6 for the glaser. Plus the FBI #4 test (see http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=237381&highlight=glaser , thanks to JE223) of the Glaser where after it hit 2 layers of sheetrock it sailed thru 11 inches of gel without ever breaking up (basically behaved like a FMJ) has me spooked. I'm actually considering buying some ammo from this overpriced, corn-ball company. The guys over at Extreme Shock should get more serious about their products, drop the overly tactical marketing and drop the anti-terrorist fang face rounds (junk). They may be on to something with the air freedom rounds.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Riz58 said:
So what happens when light birdshot fails to penetrate organs? Have you asked that question?
Think about what you are saying here for a second - the birdshot will not penetrate drywall. If 1" of drywall will stop it cold, how will it penetrate vital organs that can be 6-12" from the surface of the skin depending on the angle of the shot?
Birdshot certainly can kill you dead right there or stop a threat at home defense ranges. It just doesn't do so very reliably.
Lonestar said:
I know a round that beats both of them - 6mm plastic airsoft BBs. It isn't very good at stopping a threat; but it certainly won't overpenetrate. I think one problem you'll see with the round above is that while it may not overpenetrate, it has about zero chance of penetrating deeply enough to stop a threat through blood loss or damage to the central nervous system. If it doesn't do one of those two things, then all you have left is to hope that the psychological jolt of being shot scares them off.
The Extreme Shock round you mentioned penetrates an estimated 3-4" in ballistic gel - and that assumes an ideal scenario with light or no clothing and no intervening body parts (like an arm). Take a look at a target pointing a pistol at you in a two-handed stance. How much of the vitals of that target are covered by his arms? You may hurt his arm bad; but he can still fight if he has the desire to do so.
Bart all the test I'm seeing average out to 4" to 7" of BARE gel. I'm not looking for a whole mag of the stuff, just the first and maybe 2nd round(which would be more reasonable to test for reliability). Same as the first round of birdshot in a shotgun. Its that first "oh my God it's really happening" shot that I'm thinking your more likely going to miss on. Sure there is the old school of thought you should train a lot so you don't miss, but even trained police and military personnel don't have a 100% hit ratio in combat
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Lonestar, I agree that misses are likely. In my force-on-force training, I watched Grandmaster IPSC shooters miss as often than they hit and at living room distances.
In the link you posted, the Extreme Shock round penetrated a single plastic water jug and dented the face of the second jug. That would equate to (very roughly) 3-4" of ballistic gel. As for 4-7", it sounds like more than enough at first but when you start considering it from different perspectives it can seem awful shallow. Penetrating and exiting an arm on an average person can be the equivalent of 4-6" of ballistic gel penetration. This is particularly true of rounds the explosively fragment because the smaller fragments will not have the momentum necessary to overcome the elasticity of the skin and will never exit the arm.
Now think of a scenario like I described above with people shooting back at you or one where you have an oblique or side shot on a target.
I'm not saying your choice is wrong. There aren't any easy choices here. Choose a round that will reliably incapacitate and you will penetrate drywall easily. Choose a round that stops in drywall and you will be limited to taking certain shots if you want to be effective. Everybody has to decide where to draw the line for their own situation. Just be aware of the tradeoffs you are making.
Personally, if I am going to use a limited penetration round, then I like having a lot of them on tap and a longarm that lets me place them on target better. This is one reason I like ARs.
In the link you posted, the Extreme Shock round penetrated a single plastic water jug and dented the face of the second jug. That would equate to (very roughly) 3-4" of ballistic gel. As for 4-7", it sounds like more than enough at first but when you start considering it from different perspectives it can seem awful shallow. Penetrating and exiting an arm on an average person can be the equivalent of 4-6" of ballistic gel penetration. This is particularly true of rounds the explosively fragment because the smaller fragments will not have the momentum necessary to overcome the elasticity of the skin and will never exit the arm.
Now think of a scenario like I described above with people shooting back at you or one where you have an oblique or side shot on a target.
I'm not saying your choice is wrong. There aren't any easy choices here. Choose a round that will reliably incapacitate and you will penetrate drywall easily. Choose a round that stops in drywall and you will be limited to taking certain shots if you want to be effective. Everybody has to decide where to draw the line for their own situation. Just be aware of the tradeoffs you are making.
Personally, if I am going to use a limited penetration round, then I like having a lot of them on tap and a longarm that lets me place them on target better. This is one reason I like ARs.
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